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EU Digital/paper! Certs, the Megathread - threadbans in OP

biko

This is to be implemented in 2 years time.

https://ec.europa.eu/health/sites/health/files/vaccination/docs/2019-2022_roadmap_en.pdf

Commission proposal for a common vaccination card/passport for EU citizens

https://www.vaccinestoday.eu/stories/eu-considers-vaccination-passport-for-kids/

The ultimate goal of a vaccination passport would be to ensure that children who move between countries with different immunisation schedules do not miss out on crucial vaccinations. A similar scheme is already in place for pets and has helped boost vaccination rates, according to the European Commission.

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tommybrees

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Russman

Deleted User wrote: »

I could see businesses being boycotted. Not so much in Ireland because of the size of the country, and because the opposition in the country is tiny really. But I could definitely see problems developing in the UK. Not so much in the US, however, because of the federal system of government there. Ron DeSantis signed an executive order the other day banning vaccine passports in Florida. Greg Abbott has banned them in Texas as well. A number of other governors have spoken out against them. Neil Clark put it best when he described the US as a country made of many different countries.

It’ll be interesting to see how it plays out alright. Like I say, I’ve no real issue with a short term period of certs being required to do some things until we reach X milestone of vaccine coverage or whatever metric is used.

The US is a diverse place alright, although I’d tend towards the view that if DeSantis and Abbott are doing something, the sensible thing to do is the opposite

[Deleted User]

Russman wrote: »

That’s fair, but whatever about the State allowing freedoms (I get your point but to be honest I think it’s more his turn of phrase than any sinister overreach), what happens when/if a business or venue decides to only offer its services or allow access to vaccinated people ? I think a certain amount of differing levels of access to stuff are inevitable for a while.

I could see businesses being boycotted. Not so much in Ireland because of the size of the country, and because the opposition in the country is tiny really. But I could definitely see problems developing in the UK. Not so much in the US, however, because of the federal system of government there. Ron DeSantis signed an executive order the other day banning vaccine passports in Florida. Greg Abbott has banned them in Texas as well. A number of other governors have spoken out against them. Neil Oliver put it best when he described the US as a country made of many different countries.

Multipass

drunkmonkey wrote: »

I'm glad someone copped the madeness of it, you wouldn't have found those people out much in normal times.

Seriously, what extra freedoms can the they give people domestically that's any way enforceable.

If it comes in I hope to god someone produces fakes. I’ll get the vaccine, for herd immunity rather than anything else, but I’ll fight tooth and nail against damn passports.

Russman

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

Those who decide not to get vaccinated for whatever reason could find themselves in awkward position if they require hospital admission for something unrelated. Hospitals won't want "the unclean " inside their building with potentially vulnerable people (even if those vulnerable people have been vaccinated)

I’d imagine it would be like last year with pcr tests prior to admission. My father had a couple of surgeries in the last 8 months and just had to be tested beforehand each time. Can’t see hospitals refusing care to anyone.

drunkmonkey

Multipass wrote: »

How does it make sense that those most at risk from covid would get to go out to pubs and restaurants, whilst those least at risk are barred. It’s ludicrous, you couldn’t make this **** up!

I'm glad someone copped the madeness of it, you wouldn't have found those people out much in normal times.

Seriously, what extra freedoms can the they give people domestically that's any way enforceable.

TomSweeney

SnuggyBear wrote: »

My opinion is we will have social score system at some stage. When I don't know but its only a matter of time.

Frightening about that is you could have the money and yet be denied purchasing of items ... terrifying ...

ExMachina1000

Russman wrote: »

That’s fair, but whatever about the State allowing freedoms (I get your point but to be honest I think it’s more his turn of phrase than any sinister overreach), what happens when/if a business or venue decides to only offer its services or allow access to vaccinated people ? I think a certain amount of differing levels of access to stuff are inevitable for a while.

Those who decide not to get vaccinated for whatever reason could find themselves in awkward position if they require hospital admission for something unrelated. Hospitals won't want "the unclean " inside their building with potentially vulnerable people (even if those vulnerable people have been vaccinated)

TomSweeney

bucketybuck wrote: »

I have no doubt that you dont care about basic human rights, what is confusing is what you think a vaccinated person gains from this idea.

A majority will be vaccinated within months, you will already be safe, why is some boondoggle passport important to you? Is this just about superiority over others?

I'll take my vaccine, no doubt, but that doesn't mean we should ignore government overreach just because it wears the cloak of the almighty covid.

The new left are the most authoritarian bunch.
They just love to force things on people.

I bet you a months salary he's the type that also believes people should be prosecuted for misgendering people, or thrown into jail for insulting Islam

Multipass

hmmm wrote: »

Vaccine numbers are going to ramp up considerably from this month. We've had very little supply the first 3 months of the year, and that was expected.

You call it discrimination, I call it being practical. If pubs, restaurants, gyms are safe to open now for vaccinated people then I'm happy for them to do it and try and make up for lost income. I wouldn't like them to be forced to stay closed until everyone is vaccinated, that makes no sense.

How does it make sense that those most at risk from covid would get to go out to pubs and restaurants, whilst those least at risk are barred. It’s ludicrous, you couldn’t make this **** up!

Russman

Deleted User wrote: »

Varadkar didn't mention anything about a negative test or an antibody test. He said the vaccinated would be allowed additional freedoms (the idea of the State allowing people freedoms is rather troubling, in my opinion).

We should have an idea from Denmark about how temporary it will be. The Danish Government says the vaccine passport there will be temporary and will be required until such time as all adults have been offered a vaccine. If all adults are vaccinated and it's not got rid of then we'll know that it isn't to be temporary.

That’s fair, but whatever about the State allowing freedoms (I get your point but to be honest I think it’s more his turn of phrase than any sinister overreach), what happens when/if a business or venue decides to only offer its services or allow access to vaccinated people ? I think a certain amount of differing levels of access to stuff are inevitable for a while.

SnuggyBear

My opinion is we will have social score system at some stage. When I don't know but its only a matter of time.

[Deleted User]

astrofool wrote: »

Sure, but how, what is the next step? Unless there is a path to get there, then I don't see how you can be worried about COVID Vaccine Passports. A slippery slope argument needs to define the next steps, otherwise it falls apart and can be dismissed.

But it's important to note that it's a vaccine passport, not a covid passport. So that could result in any and all vaccines being mandatory.

I guess the social credit system could be something along the lines of 'don't have the latest vaccine, or booster shot? Then no access to public transport for x number of days.' That's just a hypothesis. I really don't know whether that would ever happen.

antgal23

[Deleted User] wrote: »

That's true, but a domestic vaccine passport is to be rolled out in Ireland. People who do not get vaccinated will be banned from certain activities.

Oh

Didn't know that

It would really surprise me if the elected and non elected protagonists of the Covid saga in Dublin do something different to their EU masters in Brussels

[Deleted User]

Russman wrote: »

Won’t it be similar though in that a negative test and/or antibody test will also be acceptable ?
I agree there are issues and honestly imo it’s not black and white. My own opinion at the moment is that it will likely be a relatively short term measure and I’ve no issue with some people being told “no” you can’t do something. I’d rather see businesses open quicker if they can, as opposed to staying shut til everyone is vaccinated.

Varadkar didn't mention anything about a negative test or an antibody test. He said the vaccinated would be allowed additional freedoms (the idea of the State allowing people freedoms is rather troubling, in my opinion).

We should have an idea from Denmark about how temporary it will be. The Danish Government says the vaccine passport there will be temporary and will be required until such time as all adults have been offered a vaccine. If all adults are vaccinated and it's not got rid of then we'll know that it isn't to be temporary.

SnuggyBear

astrofool wrote: »

Grand, so nothing to worry about then as there's no restrictions anywhere in the world for travelling without a flu vaccine (though I still struggle to see how this leads to a social scoring system).

We are not talking about travelling we are talking about going to restaurants etc. That alone is heading to a social scoring system.
Not long ago Leo was saying we might have to lockdown in winter for flu.

astrofool

SnuggyBear wrote: »

Next step, flu vaccine passport.

Grand, so nothing to worry about then as there's no restrictions anywhere in the world for travelling without a flu vaccine (though I still struggle to see how this leads to a social scoring system).

Russman

Deleted User wrote: »

That's true, but a domestic vaccine passport is to be rolled out in Ireland. People who do not get vaccinated will be banned from certain activities.

Won’t it be similar though in that a negative test and/or antibody test will also be acceptable ?
I agree there are issues and honestly imo it’s not black and white. My own opinion at the moment is that it will likely be a relatively short term measure and I’ve no issue with some people being told “no” you can’t do something. I’d rather see businesses open quicker if they can, as opposed to staying shut til everyone is vaccinated.

Irish Aris

Deleted User wrote: »

That's true, but a domestic vaccine passport is to be rolled out in Ireland. People who do not get vaccinated will be banned from certain activities.

This came from Leo Varadkar, right?
I will believe it when I see it. . .

SnuggyBear

astrofool wrote: »

Sure, but how, what is the next step? Unless there is a path to get there, then I don't see how you can be worried about COVID Vaccine Passports. A slippery slope argument needs to define the next steps, otherwise it falls apart and can be dismissed.

Next step, flu vaccine passport.

astrofool

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm not saying it's the same. I'm saying that there are fears it could potentially morph into such a system, and it could just as potentially not.

Sure, but how, what is the next step? Unless there is a path to get there, then I don't see how you can be worried about COVID Vaccine Passports. A slippery slope argument needs to define the next steps, otherwise it falls apart and can be dismissed.

[Deleted User]

antgal23 wrote: »

I could be wrong but did I not read recently that the EU were looking at a travel passport that includes if the person travelling has one of the following

1. Vaccine recipient
2. Covid negative results
3. Antibody test result

That's true, but a domestic vaccine passport is to be rolled out in Ireland. People who do not get vaccinated will be banned from certain activities.

antgal23

hmmm wrote: »

There is no human right which allows you to spread a disease to another person because of indifference to vaccines. Our public health laws have always been very clear that the State can take actions (including incarceration) against people who put others at risk.

These passports are going to definitely be used in international travel this year, including within the EU, and again there is no human right to be allowed go on a foreign holiday - you will be laughed out of it by border control if you try to argue it.

I could be wrong but did I not read recently that the EU were looking at a travel passport that includes if the person travelling has one of the following

1. Vaccine recipient
2. Covid negative results
3. Antibody test result

[Deleted User]

astrofool wrote: »

You're saying that introducing a COVID vaccine passport to handle a pandemic is the same as the Chinese social score. What is the single next step that will be taken on the way to enforcing this? If you can't identify that step, there is no slippery slope, and thus worrying about a non-existent threat.

I'm not saying it's the same. I'm saying that there are fears it could potentially morph into such a system, and it could just as potentially not.

astrofool

Deleted User wrote: »

Wouldn't it be better to not allow for the possibility of that next step by not going down the vaccine passport road at all?

You're saying that introducing a COVID vaccine passport to handle a pandemic is the same as the Chinese social score. What is the single next step that will be taken on the way to enforcing this? If you can't identify that step, there is no slippery slope, and thus worrying about a non-existent threat.

Irish Aris

hmmm wrote: »

There's no need for vaccine passports once the most dangerous phase has passed (probably Spring of 2022 in my opinion, countries will be cautious over Winter). Thankfully the vaccines look really good.

We don't have vaccine passports for flu, measles etc. I remember needing to get one for Yellow Fever once, and the country that required it has subsequently removed the requirement as they have more control over the disease.

For me this is the key, that vaccine certificates are a temporary measure for the short to short/medium term.
I can't wait to get vaccinated. My family is in another EU country so it will make travelling to see them easier. Plus it gives me protection from getting ill if I get infected and based on some researches it could reduce the risk of transmission.

I do have an objection though in the certificate being required for everyday activities. If businesses require this, though I will be fully vaccinated, I will avoid going them. This could cost me a lot as the social activities I like (concerts, cinema, theatre) would be top of the list in that scenario, but c'est la vie. Hopefully even if implemented, it will be short term too. If not, well, I guess I will be saving some money.

[Deleted User]

hmmm wrote: »

There's no need for vaccine passports once the most dangerous phase has passed (probably Spring of 2022 in my opinion, countries will be cautious over Winter). Thankfully the vaccines look really good.

We don't have vaccine passports for flu, measles etc. I remember needing to get one for Yellow Fever once, and the country that required it has subsequently removed the requirement as they have more control over the disease.

I hope you're right, but once they're in I think it could be very hard to get them out. Especially in Ireland where there's no opposition, be it in the media or in politics.

[Deleted User]

astrofool wrote: »

This is the slippery slope argument, what you need to justify the worry is identify the next step and if it happens, then worry. What is the next step?

It hasn't, it really, really hasn't.

Masks will be around for a while after vaccines, most people don't care about wearing masks, some people really care and are irrational about it, those people will have to wait and be irrational for a while longer.

Wouldn't it be better to not allow for the possibility of that next step by not going down the vaccine passport road at all?

ExMachina1000

Remember the pps card controversy

"The Data Protection Commissioner, in a damning report sent to the Department of Social Protection this week, found the retention of documentation on millions of citizens was unlawful, as was the basis for the card to be demanded for access to a range of public services"

This is the 2.0 version . Governments wont plough millions into setting up the systems just to discard them post pandemic. Bits and pieces of data will be added to them and they will become part of an EU database of some description.

Wasnt too long ago that people who said a vaccine passport would be coming were called tin foil hat wearing nutjobs

bucketybuck

hmmm wrote: »

There is no human right which allows you to spread a disease to another person because of indifference to vaccines.

Why would vaccinated people be scared of a small minority of unvaccinated people? Doesn't their vaccine work?

hmmm

Deleted User wrote: »

Are you confident vaccine passports would be got rid of post-pandemic?

There's no need for vaccine passports once the most dangerous phase has passed (probably Spring of 2022 in my opinion, countries will be cautious over Winter). Thankfully the vaccines look really good.

We don't have vaccine passports for flu, measles etc. I remember needing to get one for Yellow Fever once, and the country that required it has subsequently removed the requirement as they have more control over the disease.