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Schools and Covid 19 (part 5) Mod warnings in OP

Beasty

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Mod Warnings

1. Shouldn't need to say this, but unfortunately too many of you seem to ignore a very basic principle when posting - remain civil to each other, otherwise you will have posting privileges removed

2. Can we not have the roundabout question of putting teachers on PUP every 10 pages or so please. You know the answer to the question so why bother asking it

3. Stick to the topic, which is not moderation or other users. Remain civil. Report, don't react, to posts or posters who you think are an issue. This is unfortunately a polarised topic for some (not all). There is some middle ground though and please do not think the worse of posters simply because you have opposing views

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History Queen

[Deleted User] wrote: »

And yet we have data here showing 25 test per school where contact tracing was carried out

You realise in many schools 25 tests would be less than a class? In post primary a student could be in class with 60 or 70 different students throughout the day, more in some cases.

[Deleted User]

History Queen wrote: »

You realise in many schools 25 tests would be less than a class? In post primary a student could be in class with 60 or 70 different students throughout the day, more in some cases.

25 on average, with most in primary school

History Queen

[Deleted User] wrote: »

25 on average, with most in primary school

The average tells us very little though. In my area one primary school had all staff and students tested last week such was the scale of the cluster, in another primary, of similar size in a neighbouring parish, two people were tested.

Beasty

shtpEdthePlum wrote: »

The best way of doing it, and the way nobody in this entire country even mentions, is to do entire regions at a go as a lottery. That way, whole areas could go back to normal at the same time and relative economic normality could resume. Also it would make it less likely that virus would mutate in the portion of the population who aren't vaccinated as they mingle with those who are.

But that just makes way too much sense, and it would get rid of the fighting and bickering which is making us too busy to direct our energy at the tyrannical and sick ruling regime we're currently oppressed by.

That would not make sense if you are considering health as the main priority, which is very much the case with Ireland's approach. The economy has been very much put on the back burner

Vaccinating in order of vulnerability is the "purest" way to do it when considering health. That means those with specific vulnerability and exposures first, then down though the age groups, which is exactly how it has turned out

Darwin

Beasty wrote: »

That would not make sense if you are considering health as the main priority, which is very much the case with Ireland's approach. The economy has been very much put on the back burner

Vaccinating in order of vulnerability is the "purest" way to do it when considering health. That means those with specific vulnerability and exposures first, then down though the age groups, which is exactly how it has turned out

If those with specific exposures have been prioritised, then surely all public facing essential workers will have been vaccinated first? This has been the model in quite a few EU countries, but not here.

byhookorbycrook

Beasty wrote: »

That would not make sense if you are considering health as the main priority, which is very much the case with Ireland's approach. The economy has been very much put on the back burner

Vaccinating in order of vulnerability is the "purest" way to do it when considering health. That means those with specific vulnerability and exposures first, then down though the age groups, which is exactly how it has turned out

But it hasn’t . Otherwise those working in schools , the Gardai retail and early childhood settings should be vaccinated shortly . The “ new “ approach means that a perfectly healthy 50 year old accountant working from home will be vaccinated before a 26 year high risk crèche worker .
It’s being sold through death figures, exclusively, taking no account of hospitalisation and long Covid.

Beasty

Those facing Covid patients have

School teachers, Guards and the like are really little different from Supermarket workers in terms of their exposure to and risk of catching Covid 19

So can anyone tell me - how many teachers have died from Covid-19? What proportion of the workforce? Then compare that with the proportion of over 60s that have died. That tells you where priorities should lie.

I heard yesterday someone in their 60s is something like 70 times more likely to die from Covid-19 that someone in their 20s. I think it was something like 50 times when compared to someone in their 30s. I presume that was in relation to numbers catching the disease and I full accept that teachers, Guards and supermarket workers are more exposed. But are they 50 or 70 times more exposed? I suspect not.

am_zarathustra

This is very true, vaccinate everyone even over 60 first but not vaccinating teachers will lead to rolling closures. I don't much care, I'm happy moving between online and in person but it's crap for the kids and I don't think the general public understand that this is what will happen.

I will also say they should have understood their own limitations from the start or done better job. A properly cross referancable database is what's preventing this happening and causing the opening for corrultion. Hire some programmers, good ones, and then don't let a single person above assistant principal in the CS talk to them.

Hopefully we will be done by next september.

byhookorbycrook

We need to think beyond death as the sole measure of failure in the Covid battle .
In any case, schools will be forced to close more and more even if the 21 year old teacher “only” gets a “ mild dose ,” because there will be no-one to replace her . Likewise the SNAs and school bus escorts. The same applies to the early childhood and crèche sector .

If schools are inherently safe , why were classes other than Leaving and 5th years told to remain learning from home ?

lulublue22

From a personal point of view I’m not too pushed re vac list. Though I’m well out of my 20’s I’m healthy with no underlying health conditions and I’m not in a position whereby I could spread it to vulnerable extended family members. I realise that this is not true for a lot of my colleagues who have genuine fears re the potential spread of covid to their families and loved ones.
From a professional perspective though I don’t understand given the importance for children’s emotional , social and academic wellbeing that the gov , advocacy groups and parents have placed on in person education. For the last year a cornerstone of gov policy has been to keep schools open due to the detrimental effects of school closures. Concerns have been raised as to the regression of children with additional needs , the impact of school closures on children in DEIS schools , the inequitable access to education that arises due to lack of resources for on line learning.
Not vaccinating school staff will result in rolling class and possibly school closures. Subs are very very thin on the ground. Will parents and the general public be happy with this continuing on into a new school year. No one is advocating prioritising teachers over the elderly and / or those with underlying health conditions but if we value in person education as much as we say we do it makes absolutely no sense for a 50 year old wfh to be vaccinated before a 35 year old teacher.

combat14

does any one know if all further education and third level students are back in school/ college on the 12 april or do they stay fully online at that stage

nothing

combat14 wrote: »

does any one know if all further education and third level students are back in school/ college on the 12 april or do they stay fully online at that stage

Seems to be remaining online as there's no mention of a return, until we're back in level 3 or lower

km79

combat14 wrote: »

does any one know if all further education and third level students are back in school/ college on the 12 april or do they stay fully online at that stage

Of course not
Simon Harris is too busy telling every other minister how to do their jobs
He “hopes” to have them back in Septmeber though .......I await his Instagram update as to how this will happen

wirelessdude01

km79 wrote: »

Of course not
Simon Harris is too busy telling every other minister how to do their jobs
He “hopes” to have them back in Septmeber though .......I await his Instagram update as to how this will happen

Hasn't he now moved to TikTok as his preferred outlet ðŸ˜‚

Natterjack from Kerry

It looks like a face saving exercise now for teachers and gardai with a bit of creative ambiguity and language thrown in.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/gardaiand-teachers-say-a-twin-track-approach-must-be-takento-covid-19-vaccination-40273865.html

A twin track approach with both priority groups, and age based roll outs, to happen in parallel. Which of course is a nonsense. There is only one track. There is a finite amount of vaccine and vaccination resource. But things will probably happen quickly enough in the next 3 months that there will be no real difference, or clearcut who is where, in the queue. The 'twin track' idea just looks like a typical fudging so that representatives and negotiators are not shown up for not have gotten anything changed for their members.

It is against the nature of such established unions to ever bow to a greater good, but to fight to the end for whatever is best for their members - the getting of anything in the end being the proof that they were right to fight for it. But looks like NIAC, NPHET, and the govt, all holding firm on the clearcut science based age based programme. I could see them ostensibly going for the twin track idea, which can be presented as doing something for them, but in reality will make no difference to the timetable for the vaste majority. They will just have different way of registering or notified, which will give the illusion of them being different to the greater public. And will be easilty scalable - any other interest groups playing hardball can be added in the same way - with the same fundamental no change, despite the negotiating choreography.

byhookorbycrook

Funny how the “ science” prioritises school staff and police in most other countries.

Beasty

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Funny how the “ science” prioritises school staff and police in most other countries.

I do not believe that for one minute

Someone in their 60s with this virus is 70 times more likely to die than someone in their 20s with it. The science is pretty clear

selectamatic

Beasty wrote: »

I do not believe that for one minute

Someone in their 60s with this virus is 70 times more likely to die than someone in their 20s with it. The science is pretty clear

Yep very clear on mortality.

However definitely not clear on the impact to spread and the reopening of society/economy.

The USA, Israel and the UAE have prioritised key workers along with those who are vulnerable.

Obviously with an emphasis on the vulnerable first and foremost. In fact I believe the UAE are gone to strictly those who are vulnerable now for a while after many key workers have been vaccinated.

Darwin

Beasty wrote: »

I do not believe that for one minute

Someone in their 60s with this virus is 70 times more likely to die than someone in their 20s with it. The science is pretty clear

I don't dispute at all the somebody in their 60s are more are risk, but let's put to bed first that all teachers are in their 20s, they most definitely are not.
Other countries such as USA, Italy, Croatia, Germany, Austria to name a few have already prioritised frontline workers for vaccination.
It has been shown that the most effective way of reducing the R rate is to close schools as they are now doing in France. Therefore it makes perfect sense to prioritise those who are most at risk of catching it after the most vulnerable have been taken care of.

dubal

But if the vaccine for teachers is to protect them at work.

Since if they are prioritised it's unlikely they will be protected before the school term end its pointless.

Unless they want to to be rewarded so they can have a nice summer holiday??

byhookorbycrook

dubal wrote: »

But if the vaccine for teachers is to protect them at work.

Since if they are prioritised it's unlikely they will be protected before the school term end its pointless.

Unless they want to to be rewarded so they can have a nice summer holiday??

Vaccine is to protect everyone . The children , their families , the wider community. It’s not just teachers who work in schools .And what will happen re July provision?

BettyS

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

But it hasn’t . Otherwise those working in schools , the Gardai retail and early childhood settings should be vaccinated shortly . The “ new “ approach means that a perfectly healthy 50 year old accountant working from home will be vaccinated before a 26 year high risk crèche worker .
It’s being sold through death figures, exclusively, taking no account of hospitalisation and long Covid.

And what is the probability of the 50year old having serious consequences from COVID versus the 26 year old (risk of death is 10-fold increases!) Every life is valuable. This is the way of trying to mitigate the fallout of the pandemic

byhookorbycrook

BettyS wrote: »

And what is the probability of the 50year old having serious consequences from COVID versus the 26 year old (risk of death is 10-fold increases!) Every life is valuable. This is the way of trying to mitigate the fallout of the pandemic

Person working at home isn’t exposed to unmasked people in a poorly ventilated space from at least 30 households for 5 hours per day.

wirelessdude01

dubal wrote: »

But if the vaccine for teachers is to protect them at work.

Since if they are prioritised it's unlikely they will be protected before the school term end its pointless.

Unless they want to to be rewarded so they can have a nice summer holiday??

What have holidays got to do with anything?

byhookorbycrook

Over 122,000 &#55356;&#56812;&#55356;&#56807; NHS personnel have #LongCovid, out of 1.1 million people in the UK were affected by the condition. What’s the #2 occupational group? 114,000 teachers. Many are unable to work full time because of Long #COVID19 illness & brain fog. &#55358;&#56821;

https://twitter.com/drericding/status/1378995589568991232?s=21

araic88

dubal wrote: »

But if the vaccine for teachers is to protect them at work.

Since if they are prioritised it's unlikely they will be protected before the school term end its pointless.

Unless they want to to be rewarded so they can have a nice summer holiday??

I think it would be reasonable to seek assurance that teachers would be vaccinated by September.
With the glacially paced, disastrous rollout of the vaccine so far, I agree that it's unlikely that many teachers would be vaccinated by the end of this school year (under either system of prioritization) and wouldn't be holding my 25-34 year old breath for it to happen before the next school year either, if done by age only.

BettyS

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Person working at home isn’t exposed to unmasked people in a poorly ventilated space from at least 30 households for 5 hours per day.

And what if the 50 year old has kids coming home from school? Or grandchildren?

am_zarathustra

araic88 wrote: »

I think it would be reasonable to seek assurance that teachers would be vaccinated by September.
With the glacial/disastrous rollout of the vaccine so far, I also think it's unlikely that many teachers would be vaccinated by the end of this school year (under either system of prioritization) and wouldn't be holding my 25-34 year old breath for it to happen before the next school year either.

Urban areas will be hit with rolling closures if this is the case. It's not really even about teacher health, we probably need to vaccinate during the summer to make sure schools can stay open. We've a lot moving home, taking breaks, trying to get out of the city, keeping staff in dublin a nightmare and most are in the 23-40 ages bracket.

TheDriver

There appears to be no support for teachers, SNAs, Gardai etc getting the vaccine as a priority. We keep hearing that as you get to under 55, there's little risk of consequences of covid.
so why can't everyone under 55 go back to workplaces? If Govt says we are not at risk in packed school buildings, fairly full school buses etc, why can't we open Penney's, open constructions, open gyms, let teams train? They are saying there is minimal risk so talk the talk and lower restrictions.

Beasty

TheDriver wrote: »

There appears to be no support for teachers, SNAs, Gardai etc getting the vaccine as a priority. We keep hearing that as you get to under 55, there's little risk of consequences of covid.
so why can't everyone under 55 go back to workplaces? If Govt says we are not at risk in packed school buildings, fairly full school buses etc, why can't we open Penney's, open constructions, open gyms, let teams train? They are saying there is minimal risk so talk the talk and lower restrictions.

No one says there is no risk in a school environment. However if a 25yo teacher is 70 times less likely to die from this disease if caught are you suggesting that 25yo teacher is more than 70 times more likely to catch the virus?

No-one says there is no risk of covid. The risks increase with age. Put all under 55s back to work and the risk of them spreading it further (particularly the higher risk over 55s) increases. It really is common sense