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Cork developments

snotboogie

I noticed that the Limerick equivalent is a very popular thread over on their forum so I thought I might get one going here. To kick things off I'll list the bigger current projects I can think of:

Under Construction

Navigation Square: Four building office development on the former Navigation House site on Albert Quay. 310,000 sq ft of office space for up to 3000 employees. First phase to be completed Feb 19'

89-90 South Mall: 50,000 sq ft office, 5 storey office building.To be completed in December 18'

Dalata Hotel South Mall: Six storey hotel, 165 beds. To be completed in December 18'

Various Student Accommodation: Western Road and Beamish site are under construction, Crows Nest has planning and should start soon, Square Deal is facing appeals, Coca-Cola site on the Carrigrohane Road has had planning for over a year but nothing has happened? O’Riordans Joinery, Gillen House on Farranlea Road, Model Farm Road/Melbourne Road and Copely Street are all at various stages of planning and/or limbo.

Planning/Appealed

Horgan's Quay: Office Space for 5,000 employees, 200 apartments, 136 bed hotel and 3000 sq metres of restaurants and retail. Got planning permission in March but it was appealed by Port of Cork. Uncertain when the final decision will be. Construction on the Hotel will hopefully begin in Q4 this year with the office and apartments commencing in 2019.

Sullivan's Quay: 6 storey Office & 193 bed 4 star Hotel. Planning granted and immediately appealed. Given that demolition is nearly complete I'd expect this to go into construction as soon as planning is granted. Potential hold up over the height of the hotel, at 12 storeys and 47 metres, it is set to make the top 20 tallest buildings in the state if completed. An Taisce not happy.

Former Victoria Hotel: Knocking much of the Victoria and rebuilding to the back and refurbishing the original historic front/facade and to integrate the two sections into a new high order retail unit, of 25,000 sq ft, over four floors. Rumoured to be taken over by Zara. Planning granted in Feb, nothing happened on site since.

Metropole Redevelopment: €50m redevelopment of the Metropole Hotel to include a new five-storey boutique hotel on Patrick's Quay. Planning granted with amendments in March. No date for work to start.

Wilton Shopping Centre: €100 million revamp proposed. Mistake made in planning permission. In the process of resubmitting.

In Limbo

Event Centre: 6000 all seater multi purpose event centre with a tourist brewery experience. Arguably the most controversial construction project in the history of the city. After a bleak 6 months at the back end of 2017 there have been two instances of positive murmurs from the Government and BAM in January 2018 and April 2018. Construction allegedly to start in Q4 2018 but there are still conflicting and contradictory statements from all parties involved. Most would be shocked to see this start in 2018.

Anderson Quay/Camden Quay/Trinity Quarter: All have had planning for years with no work on site. Camden Quay allegedly had some work going on last week but I'd be shocked if it was related to the actual construction. I can't see any of these sites being developed as per their current proposals.

Concept/Pre Planning

Docklands Tower: 40 storey mixed use tower with the redevelopment of the existing customs house warehouses into cultural, tourist and retail space. By a mile the most ambitious development in Ireland. Announced over one year ago and no sign of a planning permission application yet, allegedly waiting for the Docklands development plan this summer to rezone heights for the site. If we don't see a planning application by the end of the year I'd be worried.

Ford Distribution Depot: Put on sale last week. Former site of the extremely ambitious Atlantic Quarter. Major development opportunity

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Mav11

Deleted User wrote: »

You are arguing against development. Those buildings have been decaying for years. No one wanted to touch them, at low height.

The ONLY reason this development works is that they're able to repurpose the ground floor public use while doing business above.

What you're proposing would necessitate the protected buildings to be razed to make the area viable at all

In all fairness I’m not against development and this site / area badly needs to be developed. At the risk of repeating myself yet again:

Originally Posted by Mav11 View Post
I'm not arguing against development, god knows it is badly needed in places. I'm simply asking are the current proposals appropriate development?

Then, if you ask the basic question who are we trying to attract to Cork city or what would be better for local business?

The Wild Atlantic Way begins / ends at Kinsale. So what experience is more likely to attract these and other visitors to the city? Is it a 34 storey high rise hotel in the centre of the city or a “Custom House Quarter” developed on the lines of the V&A (much smaller) in Cape town? I know which one would attract me, or those coming from US or other cities. And great they could stay in the 34 storey high rise hotel in Tivoli with an FLT rail line to the city (10 mins journey time?).

Go back to the mid 80’s, big debate on the provision of a downstream crossing. Powers that be at the time wanted a tunnel. Would be the longest tunnel in Ireland they said! Was needed they said! We’ll call it the Jack Lynch tunnel they said. Nothing else (bridges etc) will do they said!

City Architect at the time, Mr Neil Hegarty, proposed a causeway instead of a tunnel, would serve the city much better in the long run. He argued that among other factors it was preferable to a tunnel because:

- It was more cost effective to build

- It would reduce the risk of city flooding in so far as the causeway could be closed when there was a risk that a tidal surge in a S/SE gale would result in the city being flooded.

- The causeway could also be closed to retain a high water level along the Marina which would provide an amenity to the city to allow for water based events and regattas take place.

When the “longest tunnel in Ireland vanity committee” heard this and discovered that they could no longer place Hegarty in the stocks or be publicly flogged for his sacrilege in Daunt Square they issued the following rebuttal:

- Causeway wouldn’t work because traffic would be delayed due to ships passing up and down the river. Who could have imagined that with Ringaskiddy well under way at the time that shipping would move to there in a short period?

- Causeway wouldn’t work because there would not be sufficient flushing of the river due to the causeway locks. Who could have imagined that with the Cork main drainage in planning at the time that said flushing would not be an issue in less than 10 years?

- Can’t remember what, if any argument, they had for the flooding.

Now imagine what the city experience and visitor number numbers would be like if the causeway had gone ahead and the city had the Marina high water amenity, city flooding not as much of an issue, a “Custom House Quarter” on the lines of the V&A and signature high rise down the Tivoli docks. Even with the non-development of the causeway I know which one I think is best for the city but I’m sure that the “highest building in Ireland vanity committee” won’t agree.

Long post I know, thanks for bearing with it.:D

[Deleted User]

People were free to propose this, they didn't. Because attempting to renovate those buildings for low yield and low density would have never worked.

Your proposal would require knocking the protected buildings

Mav11

Deleted User wrote: »

Your proposal would require knocking the protected buildings

On the contrary, the protected structures would form the core and heart of the development!

the beer revolu

I don't see anything attractive in that development in Cape Town from pics online.
It doesn't look particularly cohesive or planned just looks like a sprawl of low level buildings.

Mav11

the beer revolu wrote: »

I don't see anything attractive in that development in Cape Town from pics online.
It doesn't look particularly cohesive or planned just looks like a sprawl of low level buildings.

I have been there, its fantastic. The buzz and levels of activity around the waterfront is brilliant. The shops, bars, restaurants etc. are thriving. Perhaps it is because of its lack of uniformity or cohesion that adds to its attractiveness? Real old quarter stuff.

the beer revolu

Mav11 wrote: »

I have been there, its fantastic. The buzz and levels of activity around the waterfront is brilliant. The shops, bars, restaurants etc. are thriving. Perhaps it is because of its lack of uniformity or cohesion that adds to its attractiveness? Real old quarter stuff.

Perhaps a 5 million population has something to do with this vibrancy.

Now I'm confused. Is it an old quarter or a new development?

Mav11

the beer revolu wrote: »

Perhaps a 5 million population has something to do with this vibrancy.

Now I'm confused. Is it an old quarter or a new development?

Mostly tourists / visitors.

Not binary, it could be the new development of an old quarter?????

the beer revolu

Mav11 wrote: »

Mostly tourists / visitors.

Not binary, it could be the new development of an old quarter?????

Or you could just answer my question rather than being smart arsed about it.

OK, I'm done engaging with you.
People have been extremely polite with you (especially for this thread) despite you just rehashing the same stuff or changing your points when the fallacy of your arguments are pointed out as per the mini Dublin nonsense. It seems that you will just keep going until someone else agrees with you!

I'm done being polite and I'm done engaging with you - it's extremely boring.

Mav11

the beer revolu wrote: »

Or you could just answer my question rather than being smart arsed about it.

OK, I'm done engaging with you.
People have been extremely polite with you (especially for this thread) despite you just rehashing the same stuff or changing your points when the fallacy of your arguments are pointed out as per the mini Dublin nonsense. It seems that you will just keep going until someone else agrees with you!

I'm done being polite and I'm done engaging with you - it's extremely boring.

Your question was honestly answered, in that an old quarter and new development were not mutually exclusive.

You might consider an apology for the personal attack above and learn something about polite argument from other posters.

fonecrusher1

Anyway........

Can't wait to be slugging pints in the open-air roof top bar next to the roof top Dinos. King Dino 34 floors up.

Woohooo :pac:

snotboogie

Mav11 wrote: »

In all fairness I’m not against development and this site / area badly needs to be developed. At the risk of repeating myself yet again:

Originally Posted by Mav11 View Post
I'm not arguing against development, god knows it is badly needed in places. I'm simply asking are the current proposals appropriate development?

Then, if you ask the basic question who are we trying to attract to Cork city or what would be better for local business?

The Wild Atlantic Way begins / ends at Kinsale. So what experience is more likely to attract these and other visitors to the city? Is it a 34 storey high rise hotel in the centre of the city or a “Custom House Quarter” developed on the lines of the V&A (much smaller) in Cape town? I know which one would attract me, or those coming from US or other cities. And great they could stay in the 34 storey high rise hotel in Tivoli with an FLT rail line to the city (10 mins journey time?).

Go back to the mid 80’s, big debate on the provision of a downstream crossing. Powers that be at the time wanted a tunnel. Would be the longest tunnel in Ireland they said! Was needed they said! We’ll call it the Jack Lynch tunnel they said. Nothing else (bridges etc) will do they said!

City Architect at the time, Mr Neil Hegarty, proposed a causeway instead of a tunnel, would serve the city much better in the long run. He argued that among other factors it was preferable to a tunnel because:

- It was more cost effective to build

- It would reduce the risk of city flooding in so far as the causeway could be closed when there was a risk that a tidal surge in a S/SE gale would result in the city being flooded.

- The causeway could also be closed to retain a high water level along the Marina which would provide an amenity to the city to allow for water based events and regattas take place.

When the “longest tunnel in Ireland vanity committee” heard this and discovered that they could no longer place Hegarty in the stocks or be publicly flogged for his sacrilege in Daunt Square they issued the following rebuttal:

- Causeway wouldn’t work because traffic would be delayed due to ships passing up and down the river. Who could have imagined that with Ringaskiddy well under way at the time that shipping would move to there in a short period?

- Causeway wouldn’t work because there would not be sufficient flushing of the river due to the causeway locks. Who could have imagined that with the Cork main drainage in planning at the time that said flushing would not be an issue in less than 10 years?

- Can’t remember what, if any argument, they had for the flooding.

Now imagine what the city experience and visitor number numbers would be like if the causeway had gone ahead and the city had the Marina high water amenity, city flooding not as much of an issue, a “Custom House Quarter” on the lines of the V&A and signature high rise down the Tivoli docks. Even with the non-development of the causeway I know which one I think is best for the city but I’m sure that the “highest building in Ireland vanity committee” won’t agree.

Long post I know, thanks for bearing with it.:D

The tunnel is a vanity project? It's operating well above capacity. There was 70k cars a day using it at last count and we are well overdue extra crossing points over the Lee to relieve the stress on the tunnel. This article gives a favor of the traffic chaos caused by the over capacity https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-30815183.html

Mav11

snotboogie wrote: »

The tunnel is a vanity project? It's operating well above capacity. There was 70k cars a day using it at last count and we are well overdue extra crossing points over the Lee to relieve the stress on the tunnel. This article gives a favor of the traffic chaos caused by the over capacity https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-30815183.html

You're dead right. The project was a downstream crossing, at which the tunnel is doing an excellent job. The question or issue is, would a causeway have done an equally good job, with the added benefits. TBH I don't know!!

who_me

fonecrusher1 wrote: »

Anyway........

Can't wait to be slugging pints in the open-air roof top bar next to the roof top Dinos. King Dino 34 floors up.

Woohooo :pac:

Windy up there. Chuck a chip in the air and see which county it lands in...

Chris_5339762

Mav11 wrote: »

You're dead right. The project was a downstream crossing, at which the tunnel is doing an excellent job. The question or issue is, would a causeway have done an equally good job, with the added benefits. TBH I don't know!!

The tunnel is doing an excellent job, and will continue to do so. The problem is Dunkettle and when that is done it will really help.

The problem will then shift to the Douglas Viaduct westbound, where 2x two lane motorways (the N40 and the M28) will combine into 2 lanes to go over Douglas. That'll be carnage when traffic levels return to normal and could result in traffic back to Mahon or even Dunkettle itself every morning.

[Deleted User]

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

The tunnel is doing an excellent job, and will continue to do so. The problem is Dunkettle and when that is done it will really help.

The problem will then shift to the Douglas Viaduct westbound, where 2x two lane motorways (the N40 and the M28) will combine into 2 lanes to go over Douglas. That'll be carnage when traffic levels return to normal and could result in traffic back to Mahon or even Dunkettle itself every morning.

That also suffers because of the surge traffic caused by the traffic lights, at Dunkettle.

If that was a continuous flow, without red light condensing/releasing blocks of cars, it may not be as bad as we think

Mav11

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

The tunnel is doing an excellent job, and will continue to do so. The problem is Dunkettle and when that is done it will really help.

The problem will then shift to the Douglas Viaduct westbound, where 2x two lane motorways (the N40 and the M28) will combine into 2 lanes to go over Douglas. That'll be carnage when traffic levels return to normal and could result in traffic back to Mahon or even Dunkettle itself every morning.

Indeed, throw in the odd fender bender and you can add chaos to the carnage.

Apogee

Apogee wrote: »

Planning application for student accommodation on Mardyke Walk:
Cork City Planning Permission for the demolition of a rear annex/outbuildings (previously used as a veterinary surgery) and change of use of Hawthorn House from residential to student amenity and management facilities; the construction of a four-storey student accommodation building located to the rear of Hawthorn House comprising 15 no. apartments (ranging in size between 3-7 bedrooms) and all associated development works including vehicular and pedestrian access, bicycle parking, bin store, landscaping and amenity areas.

http://planning.corkcity.ie/AppFileRefDetails/2139853/0

This has been rejected according to today's Examiner due to 'impact on architecture in the Mardyke area and concerns about impact on neighbouring buildings in terms of noise etc.'

ofcork

I assume the work along the south mall is cycle lane related?

Curb Your Enthusiasm

ofcork wrote: »

I assume the work along the south mall is cycle lane related?

Yes, two way cycle track being finished (finally!)

nogono

thomil wrote: »

While I generally agree that most high-rises should be concentrated along the Marina, I think the Customs House site just needs a stand-out development to mark the city end of the docklands and the current tower project provides just that.

Great post.
The future of the city should be the city centre. Build up to meet demand, yet ensure plenty of green space. Revitalise the city centre by converting the Roches Building into a combination of leisure and accommodation similar to the Clarendon development in the Savoy.

Look to the Dutch for guidance rather than the UK.
Avail of the beautiful river vista and the opening up of the harbour. Would be amazing to see a yacht club established once the port relocates.

Imagine if Cork week was run in both the city and Crosshaven

So many Cork exiles could be attracted to return to the city and reverse the brain drain of the 80s, 90s and early 00s.

the beer revolu

nogono wrote: »

Avail of the beautiful river vista and the opening up of the harbour. Would be amazing to see a yacht club established once the port relocates.

Imagine if Cork week was run in both the city and Crosshaven
.

Nice idea but not very practical for sailors.
The majority of the racing during Cork Week takes place outside the harbour.
There is nowhere above monkstown where you could actually race yachts. It's a long, slow trip from the city to monkstown and even longer to the harbour mouth.

The visitors pontoon at the port of Cork is great, perhaps we could have another somewhere but a yacht club, no.

There is the beginnings of a dingy club in Blackrock and that's great to see as dinghies can race in Lough Mahon. I'd love to see more dinghies in the inner harbour.

fulanoquetal

Does anyone have information on the McMahons site on the Lower Glanmire road ?. I think there is a Lisney sign up but I can't find anything about it, what is being sold, what the likely development is ?

Shedite27

fulanoquetal wrote: »

Does anyone have information on the McMahons site on the Lower Glanmire road ?. I think there is a Lisney sign up but I can't find anything about it, what is being sold, what the likely development is ?

I passed that site for probably 20 years and just after reading this was the first time I looked at it on Google Maps - never realised it had it's own inlet dock/slipway

CorkCraneCount

fulanoquetal wrote: »

Does anyone have information on the McMahons site on the Lower Glanmire road ?. I think there is a Lisney sign up but I can't find anything about it, what is being sold, what the likely development is ?

I think there was a sign about warehouse building for let there a good while ago. I don't know if that was taken down or not? Maybe that was it?

ofcork

Scaffolding going up on grand parade by old tourist office.

snotboogie

ofcork wrote: »

Scaffolding going up on grand parade by old tourist office.

Interesting. That's the site mentioned on this article right?

https://www.irishexaminer.com/business/arid-30977892.html

ofcork

Yes I would think so

who_me

fulanoquetal wrote: »

Does anyone have information on the McMahons site on the Lower Glanmire road ?. I think there is a Lisney sign up but I can't find anything about it, what is being sold, what the likely development is ?

There were plans for it back in the early noughties, several apartment blocks including one 17 floor tower. Nothing came of it, but it might be an attractive site again if Horgan's Quay gets finished, and the Water St. bridge ever gets built.

TheChizler

snotboogie wrote: »

Interesting. That's the site mentioned on this article right?

https://www.irishexaminer.com/business/arid-30977892.html

I think it's for facade repairs, saw that on twitter.

opus

Planning for the new UCC/Tyndall building & a new bridge have appeared on the entrance to the old distillery on the North Mall.