Coybig_ wrote: » Right, but the sitcom parts have absolutely no impact on the plot, the characters in them are mind controlled or fakes. We persist with this setup with virtually no payoff for a number of episodes. Before the show even started people pretty much sussed that it was Wanda projecting this reality in some way because Vision was dead. But we had to go through episodes of irrelevant sitcom to see these 30 second glitches in each episode before learning, yes, it is what you always thought it was! There was literally no character development aside from learning that Wanda was grieving and delusional, because she was the only character who had any f*cking agency and wasn't either mind controlled or made up! And the rest of the episodes only served to confirm that yes, Wanda was grieving and delusional. Spectacular character development there. As I said before, Mr.Robot (a show which is leagues better than this show) took this exact same concept and did it far more skillfully and with greater nuance. They used it for one episode because doing it for 3 is absolutely stretching the concept beyond it's initial charm. I have patience when a show is well written. The Sopranos is a relatively slow paced show which is very enjoyable - a show isn't automatically good because it is slower paced. A show isn't automatically deep because it doesn't immediately reveal it's wafer thin plot. Rectify is even slower paced again, but elite television because it is competently written. Not liking Wandavision does not equal not liking 'slower paced shows'. Absurd argument. Also, it didn't take any risks - it was able to use the Marvel name and the pre-existing characters and goodwill built up from a successful universe to justify it's meandering opening few episodes, before descending into the formulaic shlock that fans say it is supposedly attempting to differentiate itself from.
pixelburp wrote: » Had decided I wouldn't watch this til it finished the run, binge it for once in my life (as something I almost never do). Dunno why just felt given the outlandish nature of the setting, that it might be a show better appreciated as a whole instead of Episode to episode. So with that in mind ... I watched the first three episodes in a sitting (aka, minding the kid lol) Oof. Look. I enjoy a slow burn I really do, and I really have to applaud the commitment to two period authentic sitcom approaches, but those ~90 minutes felt nearly interminable. A cute idea that stretched what felt like a First Act past tolerance. To be fair, I never liked those sitcoms like I Dream of Genie, or Brady Bunch and whatnot, so the pastiches did nothing for me; the longer they went on only making my patience twitch. I grew up with British sitcoms of the 70s so maybe a version of this lampooning Faulty Towers would have sat better lol. I will keep going and now that we're at that point where our Leads know Something Isn't Right, I hope things ramp up but ye gods getting there was .. well. It felt like Marvel's most self indulgent work to date. I don't want to call it atrocious but I can't say I enjoyed this. So far.
Coybig_ wrote: » It was very, very poor. Just because I liked Daredevil doesn't mean I am incapable of liking something with a different tone - that is an absurd, childish argument, but an ironic one from somebody accusing me of being vague. Well have some specifics.
Right on episodes 1-3. Very little substance -in the episodes I referred to, what actually happened? A deluded Wanda interacted with a fake Vision, fake kids and townspeople under a spell. Which of that had any substance?
We established early on that Wanda was living some sort of lie, this was evident in episode 1. The show spends the next few episodes reiterating that she is living a lie. Thanks show!
Depth? You must be joking. It's about as deep as the shallow end of a kids pool. This could easily have been done in one or two episodes and I even provided you with an example of another show which attempted the same technique with far greater nuance and expertise.
Then: The show spends the next few episodes with the outsiders figuring out what is going on inside Westview. You could have left out Darcy and Woo and the plot wouldn't have been impacted in any way. Added literally nothing to the story and wasted screentime on them. Darcy in particular gets a Deus Ex Machina 5 second scene in the finale and shes gone.
Wanda mentally enslaves and tortures a whole town for days/weeks. That is horrific, nothing justifies this. Yet the show tries to redeem her at the end by having the most laughable, cardboard cutout character, Monica, say 'they will never know what you did/gave up for them'. That is one of the most embarassing lines of dialogue in any superhero movie I've ever watched. Like that makes it ok?! And not 2 episodes before Monica was telling her that this was wrong but then finale she tells Wanda she would have done it too? It's like Marvel were scared of actually taking a risk and making Wanda a real villain (which her actions made her), and instead tried to justify those actions. Atrocious.
And then she apologises to Monica!?! What about the townspeople right behind her!
Monica is hysterical at Sword head for absolutely no reason - why on earth is he being painted as bad for not wanting to negotiate with someone who has enslaved an entire town. Especially when we as viewers know just how much pain those townfolk are in! She basically tells the audience (on behalf of the writers), don't be mad at Wanda, without having any information to go off as a character. The transformation of the Sword head from reasonable guy to maniacle despot was horrifically done - In the space of like 2 episodes he goes from normal to a mustache twirling villain basically screaming his evil plans out to Woo. Why does he shoot the kids, it's literally a terrible excuse to display Monica's powers. And even acknowledging all that - I'm not sure he even does anything wrong! He tries to stop a dangerous criminal, I'm sure he had authorisation to bring Vision back to life, and a government controlled Vision would certainly be of use against the next Thanos, and those boys he shoots he knows can't be real.
At the end of episode 7 Agnes does this cringeworthy 4th wall break where she claims to be responsible for everything? For what exactly - it's all Wanda? Agnes making yerman cut into a wall is hardly evil is it?
The Sword parts in general could have been clipped from Agents of Shield, so utterly bland.
The Evan Peters thing was just a slap in the face to viewers. They knew it would have people speculate and whip the fans into a frenzy.
It descends into this horrific CGI-borefest with this barely developed villain fighting Wanda.
She leaves Agnes/Agatha trapped in her own mind around the town, a town where the population knows shes a witch - recipe for disaster surely! And more than that, shes comfortable deciding on Agathas punishment, yet what Wanda did was leagues worse and she gets 0 punishment?
Speaking of Agatha, her motivation was 'more power'? Wow!
2 Visions hitting each other has to be the most mundane, boring finale fight yet. [/LIST]
It was, in my opinion, a very poor show which people are willing to look more favourably towards because it shows a Marvel logo in the opening munites of each episode.
The Inbetween is mine wrote: » The rights reverted back to Disney and they can now be revisited... Daredevil will be getting a reboot...Punisher & JJ possibly
beakerjoe wrote: » I dont want a reboot.... i want new seasons. Both left me wanting more.
[Deleted User] wrote: » Fair dues. I really enjoyed it. I'm someone who has never picked up a comic book and had a middling interest in the MCU up until infinity war/endgame
pjohnson wrote: » Christ you still have that shtick of blaming fans for being stupid enough to trust Marvel and bother speculating when it likely just meaningless clickbait fuel. Plenty have said they arent doing that again and have dulled any and all expectations for the other MCU shows. If that was the aim to dull expectations and kill off fans making theories they nailed it. Fans wont make that investment again.
Foxtrol wrote: » I get your feeling, I felt similar at the time but after watching the rest of the season those early episodes become much more important. Maybe they could have approached the whole thing differently but that time to character and world build is necessary for later. Interested to see how it plays out for you. The one thing I'd like to get more of your thoughts on is the bold. I might be getting you confused with another one or two mods who seem to very much push back on the formulaic approach/look and feel Marvel usually go for. If so, it seems damned if they do and damned if they don't - they do something unique in the comic book genre and it is classed as 'self indulgent'.
Coybig_ wrote: » Right on episodes 1-3.
Coybig_ wrote: » [*]Wanda mentally enslaves and tortures a whole town for days/weeks. That is horrific, nothing justifies this. Yet the show tries to redeem her at the end by having the most laughable, cardboard cutout character, Monica, say 'they will never know what you did/gave up for them'. That is one of the most embarassing lines of dialogue in any superhero movie I've ever watched. Like that makes it ok?! And not 2 episodes before Monica was telling her that this was wrong but then finale she tells Wanda she would have done it too? It's like Marvel were scared of actually taking a risk and making Wanda a real villain (which her actions made her), and instead tried to justify those actions. Atrocious.
Coybig_ wrote: » [*]Monica is hysterical at Sword head for absolutely no reason - why on earth is he being painted as bad for not wanting to negotiate with someone who has enslaved an entire town. Especially when we as viewers know just how much pain those townfolk are in! She basically tells the audience (on behalf of the writers), don't be mad at Wanda, without having any information to go off as a character.
Coybig_ wrote: » [*]And even acknowledging all that - I'm not sure he even does anything wrong! He tries to stop a dangerous criminal, I'm sure he had authorisation to bring Vision back to life, and a government controlled Vision would certainly be of use against the next Thanos, and those boys he shoots he knows can't be real.
Coybig_ wrote: » [*]The Evan Peters thing was just a slap in the face to viewers. They knew it would have people speculate and whip the fans into a frenzy.
Coybig_ wrote: » [*]She leaves Agnes/Agatha trapped in her own mind around the town, a town where the population knows shes a witch - recipe for disaster surely! And more than that, shes comfortable deciding on Agathas punishment, yet what Wanda did was leagues worse and she gets 0 punishment?
Coybig_ wrote: » [*]Speaking of Agatha, her motivation was 'more power'? Wow!
Coybig_ wrote: » [*]2 Visions hitting each other has to be the most mundane, boring finale fight yet.
Coybig_ wrote: » [/LIST] It was, in my opinion, a very poor show which people are willing to look more favourably towards because it shows a Marvel logo in the opening munites of each episode.
pixelburp wrote: » I meant self-indulgent in the sense that there was clearly no creative oversight on these episodes, the production allowed to just spend three episodes, indulging in the period-appropriate chuckles it obviously put effort into - all lasting 90 minutes for maybe, 3, 4 minutes of story pay-off? Ehhhh I dunno, my inner writer chaffed at the waffle. I don't consider myself an impatient man when it comes to storytelling, and think my record on this and other forums speak to that: but in a rare moment, I actually spoke to the screen, "Jesus, just get on with it". And yes. I think Marvel's MCU has a formula that is both its primary strength and weakness. But when it has allowed itself to be off the chain a little - thinking primarily here of the Guardians films - the universe shines with a little wit and creativity. Dr Strange nearly had it but the script was mind-numbingly generic. There is space for it, but you can go too far as well: so where a film production often has to sacrifice to the gods of editing to fit an approximate 2-hour runtime and pace, Wandavision is (so far!) smelling of that modern Streaming TV phenomenon, where in the absence of ad breaks or whatnot, pacing goes out the window. On a totally separate tangent, this is why (IMO) so many streaming comedies struggle: that classic 22 minute runtime forces snappiness and efficiency. Oh, and Kathryn Hahn vibed so obviously she was more than she was letting on; I'm in two minds whether it's for good or ill. Knowing her from Parks & Rec, I just default to presuming she's an antagonist. We'll see.
kerplun k wrote: » I’d still argue that most of these things are only a soft lead ins and will not be essential viewing when watching the movies. We had nothing of the scale that was hinted at throughout the run. This is something Feige has actually confirmed.https://www.list.co.uk/article/124024-kevin-feige-marvel-fans-dont-need-to-watch-wandavision-to-understand-movies/ If the characters in WandaVision do pop up in other stuff, the origins will be touched upon and sure D+ is there if the fans want to go and learn more about those characters, and I think those characters will also be mainly centric to future D+ shows.
Feige wrote: "But it is very similar movie-to-movie, honestly. We try to make the stories unfold in a way that if you are following along and have seen what has preceded it, you'll be right up to speed. And more importantly, if you haven't, you'll be up to speed.
SimonTemplar wrote: » His videos are extremely witty and well written.
Foxtrol wrote: » What Feige actually said in that article is much more along the lines to what I said - that WandaVision is like the movies. For example, you could watch Infinity War without having seen Black Panther because they had Banner act like the 'idiot' where they explain to him about Wakanda etc or without watching Dr Strange because he explains who his is to Tony and Peter. They always make their movies so you 'can' watch them without seeing previous - that however doesn't mean it is advisable and I'd expect it to be the pretty similar with D+.
kerplun k wrote: » Don’t agree. The movies are a massive revenue stream for Disney. They ain’t gonna mess with this. Sure there’ll be soft lead ins and loose connections, but thinking about it now, WandaVision was never gonna introduce the Multiverse or Mutants. Or FF. Spidey was introduced in CW, the Quantum realm in AntMan, these are essential viewing, this isn’t something we’ll see in the shows. It ain’t gonna do anyone any harm to dial those expectations right down when it comes to these shows, If anything WandaVision has taught me, it’s that these shows should just be watched as self contained stories with no ground breaking impact to the wider MCU.
Foxtrol wrote: » You disagree with Feige?? .
kerplun k wrote: » No, just you
Foxtrol wrote: » I'll again post the actual quote Feige said in the article you shared (not sure you bothered to actually read past the title).https://www.list.co.uk/article/124024-kevin-feige-marvel-fans-dont-need-to-watch-wandavision-to-understand-movies You can keep wishing them to have no impact but that isn't what they've said and Wandavision has moved along the MCU as much as many movies (I'd argue more than some). I'd expect not all shows will have the same level of impact but it seems like you drastically overestimate how much most of the movies move on the overall MCU narrative.
kerplun k wrote: » No need to post the quote again. I was the one who shared the link so I know what he said.
I suppose at the start of infinity war the casual viewer just knew why half of Asgard. A one eyed Thor and Hulk was on ship being destroyed by Thanos? I’ll say this one last time, these shows will not have that level of connection as the films. That’s my opinion and I’m sticking to it. Conversation over.
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