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Western Rail Corridor / Rail Trail Discussion

[Deleted User]

Carrying on with the discussion as the other thread is full

https://touch.boards.ie/thread/2055766866/1

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eastwest

ShaneC1600 wrote: »

Funny thing is the greenway campaign might be louder and have louder supporters than the railway lobbyists and supporters but there seems to be solid support for the railway regardless of what the greenway campaign would have people believe.
The voice of the public is not all greenway from what I see and here south of Claremorris.

I think we'd all support the railway, if it was a realistic option. If I was asked whether I'd like a railway from athenry to collooney, of course I'd say yes, even though the likelihood of using it might be slim. It would be grand to have it there though, in case I ever took a notion to see Tuam or Milltown from a train.
It's not about what people would like to see though, it's what is realistic. And that's the key bit.

westtip

ezstreet5 wrote: »

I'd say there would be good uptake for a Tuam-Galway rail service. Tuam has a population over 9,000, and the bus alone carries over 2,000 passengers per day. Even with the Athenry "detour," a rail service would shave 15 to 30 minutes off of the bus commute, which now stands at 45 to 60+ min (pre-Covid). There will always be a need for Burke's Bus, but for those travelling to Galway city centre, the rail service would be the preferred option.

One of the major issues of the bus v rail commute is the matter of frequency. If the railway was built what would the frequency of trains be? Maybe one every two hours if you are lucky. Max 6 outbound and 6 inbound a day and not likely to be anything after 6 in the evening. Someone might want to comment on the bus service Galway-Tuam but my guess is there must be buses from early morning to late at night on that route which seems very well served. You claim the rail service will be the preferred option, that is a POV, but do you really believe it when the flexibility of the bus in regard to timetables offers so many more choices. I am not sure about your claim of saving 15 to 30 minutes off timing either, perhaps you could enlighten us all on that claim, I am prepared to see what you mean by that one if you present the facts. I can equally see the train will be "more pleasant" etc etc, but for it to work as an alternative you would need a DART type regulatory, and due to demographics that simply is not going to be on offer.

Sam Russell

westtip wrote: »

One of the major issues of the bus v rail commute is the matter of frequency. If the railway was built what would the frequency of trains be? Maybe one every two hours if you are lucky. Max 6 outbound and 6 inbound a day and not likely to be anything after 6 in the evening. Someone might want to comment on the bus service Galway-Tuam but my guess is there must be buses from early morning to late at night on that route which seems very well served. You claim the rail service will be the preferred option, that is a POV, but do you really believe it when the flexibility of the bus in regard to timetables offers so many more choices. I am not sure about your claim of saving 15 to 30 minutes off timing either, perhaps you could enlighten us all on that claim, I am prepared to see what you mean by that one if you present the facts. I can equally see the train will be "more pleasant" etc etc, but for it to work as an alternative you would need a DART type regulatory, and due to demographics that simply is not going to be on offer.

If you consider what happens on an open railway route, consider the Dublin Wexford line. Both Dublin and Wexford are larger that Tuan or Athenry, so one would expect a very good service. Well first train from Dublin to Wexford arrives at 10:36, having left Connolly at 8:05 am, with three services each way.
So 2 and a half hours to go 120 km, or 50 km/h.

Would that satisfy the rail enthusiasts? 20 or 30 buses a day from Tuam to Galway, but only three trains per day to Athenry, with a travel time of an hour to go 30 km.

How long does it take to go from Limerick to Galway by the train that goes through Ennis? 2 hrs 10 mins or less than 40 km/hr. It is quicker by bus.

end of the road

Sam Russell wrote: »

If you consider what happens on an open railway route, consider the Dublin Wexford line. Both Dublin and Wexford are larger that Tuan or Athenry, so one would expect a very good service. Well first train from Dublin to Wexford arrives at 10:36, having left Connolly at 8:05 am, with three services each way.
So 2 and a half hours to go 120 km, or 50 km/h.

it hasn't been 3 services each way since 2004.
4 up and 5 down services, during week days.

[Deleted User]

end of the road wrote: »

it hasn't been 3 services each way since 2004.
4 up and 5 down services, during week days.

Progress!

Sam Russell

end of the road wrote: »

it hasn't been 3 services each way since 2004.
4 up and 5 down services, during week days.

The times I quoted are for 1st March. The previous timetable had the earliest arrival in Wexford was after midday - useless for business.

westtip

Sam Russell wrote: »

The times I quoted are for 1st March. The previous timetable had the earliest arrival in Wexford was after midday - useless for business.

Probably the covid timetable, some services have been trimmed slightly at the moment but the point I made is pretty clear, the actual service that can be provided on a rural line will not provide sufficient service levels for commuting service compared to bus frequencies and there simply isn't the volume there to provide a DART level commuter service. Ergo, as concluded by the independent reports it simply does not stack up as an idea, so why continue fighting for it, what exactly is it going to achieve? A question in all these years of debate that still remains unanswered.

Sam Russell

It is quite clear looking at the Ennis to Galway times, the service does not get to 50 Km/h. That is an appallingly low speed for a service in this day and age. In comparison, a car (according to Google maps) would average 77 km/h.

The Ennis to Athenry has been open for over a decade and cannot achieve better than 50 Km/h - how can such a service be considered serious?

Isambard

Sam Russell wrote: »

It is quite clear looking at the Ennis to Galway times, the service does not get to 50 Km/h. That is an appallingly low speed for a service in this day and age. In comparison, a car (according to Google maps) would average 77 km/h.

The Ennis to Athenry has been open for over a decade and cannot achieve better than 50 Km/h - how can such a service be considered serious?

It's a victim of people campaigning to have their railway back rather than campaigning for a bit more money spent to have a useful railway. At the very least the Athenry reversal should have been eliminated with a direct chord.

Sam Russell

Isambard wrote: »

It's a victim of people campaigning to have their railway back rather than campaigning for a bit more money spent to have a useful railway. At the very least the Athenry reversal should have been eliminated with a direct chord.

It needs many more passengers - simples.

ezstreet5

Sam Russell wrote: »

The Ennis to Athenry has been open for over a decade and cannot achieve better than 50 Km/h - how can such a service be considered serious?

You might want to check your math.

[Deleted User]

ezstreet5 wrote: »

You might want to check your math.

?
The next Galway to Limerick train service to depart is scheduled to take just under two hours.
The distance between the stations is appropriately 100km, giving an average of 50kmph.

Isambard

ezstreet5 wrote: »

You might want to check your math.

takes around 2 hours and is just a bit over 100 km... seems right to me.

Meanwhile AA routeplanner gives 1 hour 18 minutes for the road

ezstreet5

The claim was that "Ennis to Athenry has been open for over a decade and cannot achieve better than 50 Km/h."

serfboard

westtip wrote: »

Someone might want to comment on the bus service Galway-Tuam but my guess is there must be buses from early morning to late at night on that route which seems very well served.

Sam Russell wrote: »

20 or 30 buses a day from Tuam to Galway, but only three trains per day to Athenry

Pre Covid, there were 40 buses per weekday going from Tuam to Galway.

Once Bus Connects Galway is in place, rail's last possible advantage, of being able to beat traffic once you get to the city, will be eliminated.

ezstreet5

serfboard wrote: »

Pre Covid, there were 40 buses per weekday going from Tuam to Galway.

Once Bus Connects Galway is in place, rail's last possible advantage, of being able to beat traffic once you get to the city, will be eliminated.

How long do you estimate it will take the train to travel from Tuam to Galway?

Isambard

ezstreet5 wrote: »

How long do you estimate it will take the train to travel from Tuam to Galway?

I suppose that would depend on the timetable and what connections need to be made at Athenry.

It would be more attractive if the line into Galway was doubled.

ezstreet5

Isambard wrote: »

I suppose that would depend on the timetable and what connections need to be made at Athenry.

It would be more attractive if the line into Galway was doubled.

I believe that is in the cards, as well as removal of the unprotected level crossing beyond Oranmore, which annoyingly causes the trains to decelerate over that segment. Based on that, Galway-Tuam could be 30 - 32 minutes, which would beat all bus services, even with Bus Connects. Again, each bus service seems to make a detour into an industrial estate (not Parkmore), which provides utility, if you happen to work there. So these are complimentary services for a growing region.

westtip

ezstreet5 wrote: »

I believe that is in the cards, as well as removal of the unprotected level crossing beyond Oranmore, which annoyingly causes the trains to decelerate over that segment. Based on that, Galway-Tuam could be 30 - 32 minutes, which would beat all bus services, even with Bus Connects. Again, each bus service seems to make a detour into an industrial estate (not Parkmore), which provides utility, if you happen to work there. So these are complimentary services for a growing region.

The problem though is this, who in their right minds is going to build this railway on the arguments that it will save Tuam commuters 15 minutes to get into Galway. Can someone have a reality check here. for all our discussion in this vacuum, take stock for a moment and ask a simple question like that.

end of the road

westtip wrote: »

The problem though is this, who in their right minds is going to build this railway on the arguments that it will save Tuam commuters 15 minutes to get into Galway. Can someone have a reality check here. for all our discussion in this vacuum, take stock for a moment and ask a simple question like that.

it won't be built just to save tuam commuters 15 minutes or more to get into galway, but because galway is choked with traffic and we cannot afford to keep widening the road network to cope with cars and busses both in galway and to the towns around it.

ezstreet5

westtip wrote: »

The problem though is this, who in their right minds is going to build this railway on the arguments that it will save Tuam commuters 15 minutes to get into Galway. Can someone have a reality check here. for all our discussion in this vacuum, take stock for a moment and ask a simple question like that.

There is value of time that can be (and must be) measured.

Isambard

ezstreet5 wrote: »

I believe that is in the cards, as well as removal of the unprotected level crossing beyond Oranmore, which annoyingly causes the trains to decelerate over that segment. Based on that, Galway-Tuam could be 30 - 32 minutes, which would beat all bus services, even with Bus Connects. Again, each bus service seems to make a detour into an industrial estate (not Parkmore), which provides utility, if you happen to work there. So these are complimentary services for a growing region.

such a lot of unknowns. Connections at Athenry as I said, platform availability at Galway might be another. Better surely to improve the Galway to Dublin service, benefitting the whole region rather than just one small town.

westtip

ezstreet5 wrote: »

There is value of time that can be (and must be) measured.

We all know about the value of time, just look how much tourist trade has been lost due to the rail lobby insisting there can be no greenway on "their" route until such time as a railway is feasible. Unfortunately the can kicking by the rail lobby, has stolen time from Tuam businesses in which they could have benefitted from the greenway until the railway happens. That is the crying shame of lost time, and unfortunately with the nonsense we now have to listen to with more diatribes about strategic all island rail reviews. I ask you, what will the can kicking tactic be after that? It never ends so please spare me the ten minutes a Tuam commuter might save in time. Have another coffee from the coffee shop near the station that is crying out for the time to sell breakfasts, coffees and lunches to folk cycling through Tuam on the greenway. It is time to move on.

intellectual dosser

westtip wrote: »

The problem though is this, who in their right minds is going to build this railway on the arguments that it will save Tuam commuters 15 minutes to get into Galway. Can someone have a reality check here. for all our discussion in this vacuum, take stock for a moment and ask a simple question like that.

Commuting Tuam to Galway is just one single use case. This isolating of use cases has been done to death.

[Deleted User]

intellectual dosser wrote: »

Commuting Tuam to Galway is just one single use case. This isolating of use cases has been done to death.

What other use case is there?

Pax from beyond Tuam? Won't be built in the next 100 years

Freight? From who? To where? There is no market worth the spend

Isambard

presumably use by passengers bound for Dublin and Limerick?

[Deleted User]

Isambard wrote: »

presumably use by passengers bound for Dublin and Limerick?

Still not a strong enough justification to build WRC phase 2 ahead of other rail projects, not by a long shot.

westtip

Deleted User wrote: »

Still not a strong enough justification to build WRC phase 2 ahead of other rail projects, not by a long shot.

DC not worth wasting anymore energy on. Its not going to happen and west on track can gloat in the way they have stopped so many people from benefitting from the greenway. its really not worth the energy anymore, not here anyway.

Isambard

Deleted User wrote: »

Still not a strong enough justification to build WRC phase 2 ahead of other rail projects, not by a long shot.

No I agree. I could list a couple of dozen projects that would be ahead of it in the queue (not going to )

ezstreet5

Isambard wrote: »

No I agree. I could list a couple of dozen projects that would be ahead of it in the queue (not going to )

A couple of dozen (24 projects minimum)? I don't think you can create that transport project list!

But I understand your point. But, I would also be cognizant of the false dilemma logical fallacy. Example: "Athenry-Galway needs to be double tracked, so we should do that rather than reopening the Western Rail Corridor."

Ireland sadly ranks lowest in Europe in rail investment. More is needed. And there is no requirement that the top-ranked project be progressed first. And there is no obstacle to multiple investments occurring simultaneously.