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The way forward for LC2021

History Queen

I'm interested in the views of other teachers as to what should happen to assess the work of LC2021 students. With growing calls for cancellation of the exams and predicted grades, I fear we are sleep walking in to a repeat of last year's debacle.

My personal view is the exams should go ahead as scheduled but perhaps a further review of papers to allow for more choice should happen, suggestions submitted from subject associations maybe?

As regards projects/orals/practicals I can only speak to my own subjects. In History I feel the project should go ahead as planned.

What do others think?

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Bobtheman

https://waterfordwhispersnews.com/2021/02/17/at-this-point-you-cant-help-but-admire-governments-staggering-ineptitude-confirms-nation/

I think this is spot on. Unless you are on drugs /very drunk nothing you can imagine will be close to the farce they will soon announce.
Too much rational thought here posters. Give it up.

Wombatman

am_zarathustra wrote: »

I really hope these issues have been sorted and they aren't just going to release something half baked.

I'd take half baked but I'm expecting a dogs dinner.

am_zarathustra

Rosita wrote: »

In the Maths scenario where there is a very specific issue regarding bonus points, a teacher will have to more or less tell a student they will get a fail mark to get them to drop. It seems strange to qualify for bonus points when you don't actually have to go through the process of sitting an exam.

I teach two LC subjects, the other one Kids know their level and there won't be much alteration or difficulty in the conversation. Maths is a nightmare, the bonus points make it very attractive. The issue will be if staff let kids directly or indirectly know their grades and then they are downgraded (when actually, this will happen for a huge amount of kids) asking staff to do PG and then sit in a room with kids is a bit mad, also when do the PG group cut and run? Am I teaching a couple of kids who choose to sit the exam? I really hope these issues have been sorted and they aren't just going to release something half baked.

Wombatman

shesty wrote: »

Do you think they will have another panic if more students than expected/the bulk of students go for the traditional exam, and they have to figure out how to host it???

Reading between the lines it's pretty clear that the department aren't prepared to host a large scale leaving cert this year, with or without a Covid backdrop. I expect the PGs will be available and attractive enough to coax students away from the exam.

Rosita

Nyla Worried Son wrote: »

I wonder also if there are predicted grades, how much advice a teacher will be able to give a student about whether they should drop levels. Last year no such advice was allowed, all communication was banned, but mocks had already happened and usually teachers give their final advice at that stage so students would have already discussed this with teachers. This year that point has not yet been reached. And in a subject like HL Maths there are many hangers on right up until the mocks, hoping for bonus points. I think students are entitled to access that advice about levels to fully inform their decision, that is a normal part of classroom preparation for the LC. But of course it may lead to awkward or difficult situations in a predicted grades scenario.

In the Maths scenario where there is a very specific issue regarding bonus points, a teacher will have to more or less tell a student they will get a fail mark to get them to drop. It seems strange to qualify for bonus points when you don't actually have to go through the process of sitting an exam.

rainbowtrout

Random sample wrote: »

It’s the risk though. Would you risk having to study til July if you could get a h6 in February?

Not in all subjects, but I think students will be tactical.

I don't think students will consider covid in June / potential of an exam in July if they are planning on sitting the exam. If they are going to sit the exam, I'd assume they're going in with a 'give it their best shot' mentality. If the thought of delaying the exam for 3 weeks due to potential covid in June was a factor they'll have a string of other reasons to opt for predicted grades before they get that far down the list.

I do think some students will play it tactical and drop their weakest subjects or subjects where they expect a middle of the road grade which is unlikely to be downgraded.

I'm not sure what the stats were on downgrades last year, but I can't imagine there were heaps of H5/H6 grades downgraded in comparison to H1/H2s. Anyone taking 5 or 6 HL exams and has one OL that they don't plan on counting for points doesn't benefit from sitting that exam points wise.

Random sample

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Well there is that paper that's run in July for students with bereavements during the exam period. It could be run for students who have to isolate due to covid or test positive in June.

It’s the risk though. Would you risk having to study til July if you could get a h6 in February?

Not in all subjects, but I think students will be tactical.

Random sample

Nyla Worried Son wrote: »

I wonder also if there are predicted grades, how much advice a teacher will be able to give a student about whether they should drop levels. Last year no such advice was allowed, all communication was banned, but mocks had already happened and usually teachers give their final advice at that stage so students would have already discussed this with teachers. This year that point has not yet been reached. And in a subject like HL Maths there are many hangers on right up until the mocks, hoping for bonus points. I think students are entitled to access that advice about levels to fully inform their decision, that is a normal part of classroom preparation for the LC. But of course it may lead to awkward or difficult situations in a predicted grades scenario.

There are many awkward conversations going to come out of students getting a choice.

r93kaey5p2izun

I wonder also if there are predicted grades, how much advice a teacher will be able to give a student about whether they should drop levels. Last year no such advice was allowed, all communication was banned, but mocks had already happened and usually teachers give their final advice at that stage so students would have already discussed this with teachers. This year that point has not yet been reached. And in a subject like HL Maths there are many hangers on right up until the mocks, hoping for bonus points. I think students are entitled to access that advice about levels to fully inform their decision, that is a normal part of classroom preparation for the LC. But of course it may lead to awkward or difficult situations in a predicted grades scenario.

rainbowtrout

shesty wrote: »

Do you think they will have another panic if more students than expected/the bulk of students go for the traditional exam, and they have to figure out how to host it???

No, there will be a cohort who fall into the lazy or disinterested category who will be quite happy to accept a predicted grade rather than sit an exam. I can think of quite a few students who if they were told 'you can have an O5/O6 in Irish now or you can study for the next four months' would take the predicted grade every time. I don't think that will be confined to Ordinary Level either.

rainbowtrout

Random sample wrote: »

I don’t see the point of the choice. If a student chooses exams and is named as a close contact in June, what then?

The safest bet for all would be predicted grades.

Well there is that paper that's run in July for students with bereavements during the exam period. It could be run for students who have to isolate due to covid or test positive in June.

shesty

Do you think they will have another panic if more students than expected/the bulk of students go for the traditional exam, and they have to figure out how to host it???

Random sample

Treppen wrote: »

Dept can kick forward and tie up the processing of the predictive grade, also it would be in the same manner as doing an FOI on your grade before the usual leaving cert results come out.

I mean after the results are out. They would be entitled (as they were last year to the teacher’s raw grade) to find out what they were assigned. If you got a h2 on predictive and a h4 in the actual exam, there’s a good chance you’d try to switch to the h2.

Treppen

Random sample wrote: »

And then candidates will get their predictive grade under gdpr, and go to court to switch to it...

Dept can kick forward and tie up the processing of the predictive grade, also it would be in the same manner as doing an FOI on your grade before the usual leaving cert results come out.

Treppen

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

I've raised same at branch and district level within thr INTO and keep getting told that the issues at primary and secondary level are different and that is the reason why there is no consolidated and uniform approach. I call BS though.

Some issues are different but the new pension scheme in both are dire.

Random sample

Wombatman wrote: »

I'm guessing that it will be PGs for all, but if you decide to choose exam, your PG grade will be expunged and it will be exam or nothing from that point on.

And then candidates will get their predictive grade under gdpr, and go to court to switch to it...

Wombatman

Random sample wrote: »

I don’t see the point of the choice. If a student chooses exams and is named as a close contact in June, what then?

The safest bet for all would be predicted grades.

I'm guessing that it will be PGs for all, but if you decide to choose exam, your PG grade will be expunged and it will be exam or nothing from that point on.

Wombatman

am_zarathustra wrote: »

I wonder is it subject by subject or all or nothing??

Skip forward to 13 min.

https://www.rte.ie/radio/radioplayer/html5/#/radio1/11282023

Random sample

I don’t see the point of the choice. If a student chooses exams and is named as a close contact in June, what then?

The safest bet for all would be predicted grades.

r93kaey5p2izun

I wonder what way the guidance for predictions will go this year. Last year the instruction was that only work up to closure could be counted, and the estimated mark was to be based on how they would likely have performed if the disruption caused by Covid had never arisen. That meant teachers had 5th and most of 6th on which to base their decision. And students were protected from the effect of issues engaging with online learning and any personal impacts of Covid. This is a much more difficult prospect this year - to imagine no impact from Covid, I'm not sure it can be done.

am_zarathustra

I wonder is it subject by subject or all or nothing??

am_zarathustra

rainbowtrout wrote: »

The Inspectorate is the last place any teacher would contact if they needed help.

Can you imagine?? I'd be better off asking the kids!

noplacehere

I can’t see how else they could have done it to be honest. It’s too early in the year to have them switch off and they would barely have the predicted grades out in time for a student to opt to sit the papers. This is probably the closest scenario to one I’m happy with that’s possible. Though I would be interested to hear how the predicted grades are proposed and when they are submitted. Are we allowed continue to collect data (unlike last year) for example
And are they proposing to do more paper mitigation or is that it?

rainbowtrout

deiseindublin wrote: »

I see 1pm news saying that students will have to pick LC exam or CG in advance, with all results released together.

I think that's a horrendous choice for an LC to make. I've an LC in the house and she could well just sit all papers rather than trust the system I'd say.

Honestly, wellbeing and mental health my arse.

I don't think it's a horrendous, it might stop people gaming the system, if a student is serious about sitting the exams, and some students are, only their voices aren't heard on social media, then they can buckle down and do the work. The ones who want a predicted grade are getting exactly what they wanted.

Students can choose the default option and sit the exams. If they want a predicted grade which some have been calling for they can have that too. They don't have to opt for it. If they feel the predicted grades could be a mess, then the exam is the most straightforward, and what they had been working towards the last two years.

rainbowtrout

Wombatman wrote: »

I'd hold fire. They might be the point of contact for help and supports around the imminent PG assessment, orals, practical's and project work completion.

I feel for ye, because an LC announcement is due today following by an inevitable sh1tstorm of work over a condensed period. Ye might need to reach out at that point.

The Inspectorate is the last place any teacher would contact if they needed help.

am_zarathustra

deiseindublin wrote: »

I don't really agree with the LCA attendance thing tbh. Maybe give 10% extra above a certain threshold, but any assessment needs to be outcome based. You can have a waster in every day annoying the others in the class but it means Jack Sh*t about what he/she has learned. Their attendance does inhibit others ability to learn though.

I see 1pm news saying that students will have to pick LC exam or CG in advance, with all results released together.

I think that's a horrendous choice for an LC to make. I've an LC in the house and she could well just sit all papers rather than trust the system I'd say.

Honestly, wellbeing and mental health my arse.

Jesus the forced choice is worse than anything, if both are standardised it's a guessing game as to where the brightest will go, my guess it to exams but hard to know!!

It needs to be clearly explained how any downgrading will be done too

rainbowtrout

km79 wrote: »

http://twitter.com/JMB_Secretariat/status/1362002118631129094

Still making up jobs for the inspectors in a year when schools are crying out for subs
Send them back to the classroom

Isn't that what the NCCA, PDST, JCT and various subject associations already do?

deiseindublin

History Queen wrote: »

Just as an aside, attendance is part of the calculation for LCA state exams, albeit as a minimum requirement rather than a %mark. There was a discussion around using attendance at our school too but ultimately we didn't.

I don't really agree with the LCA attendance thing tbh. Maybe give 10% extra above a certain threshold, but any assessment needs to be outcome based. You can have a waster in every day annoying the others in the class but it means Jack Sh*t about what he/she has learned. Their attendance does inhibit others ability to learn though.

I see 1pm news saying that students will have to pick LC exam or CG in advance, with all results released together.

I think that's a horrendous choice for an LC to make. I've an LC in the house and she could well just sit all papers rather than trust the system I'd say.

Honestly, wellbeing and mental health my arse.

Wombatman

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Ring people who haven't taught remotely or in some cases haven't taught for manys years for advice on remote teaching. Couldn't make this rubbish up.

I'd hold fire. They might be the point of contact for help and supports around the imminent PG assessment, orals, practical's and project work completion.

I feel for ye, because an LC announcement is due today following by an inevitable sh1tstorm of work over a condensed period. Ye might need to reach out at that point.

wirelessdude01

km79 wrote: »

http://twitter.com/JMB_Secretariat/status/1362002118631129094

Still making up jobs for the inspectors in a year when schools are crying out for subs
Send them back to the classroom

Ring people who haven't taught remotely or in some cases haven't taught for manys years for advice on remote teaching. Couldn't make this rubbish up.