Danno wrote: » Wrong! All cases are down to travel, the ~200,000 detected cases and the ~600,000 we didn't test for. The virus did not spontaneously appear in Ireland, it did in Wuhan. While Lockdown 1 was totally the correct thing to do and was proven a great success (north of a thousand detected cases a day in April, down to less than ten per day in mid-June to mid-July) from that point forward, every resurgence of the virus is totally the fault of international travel. Expecting people to self-isolate is utter folly and has been proven as such because the numbers rebounded following large travelling events such as holidays to Spain and others in the Summer (60%+ cases related to a Spanish strain) and Christmas (60%+ cases related a UK strain). Whether those responsible were Irish residents going to and returning from infected regions, Brazilians coming in or whatever, the virus doesn't give two hoots who it is when it's hitching a free plane ride into Dublin Airport, Rosslare Europort, the M1 Dublin-Belfast Motorway or whatever point of entry you choose. The fact is we have infections pouring in over the border and very little being done to address that. We have infections washing through our community but our Government seem intent on crushing that. But you cannot do one without the other. This is what gets people's back up. We're being crushed, the international traveller is not. The time is long overdue to fix it. Strict border controls now. Clean up residual virus in the community. Leave the borders closed and open up Irish society and let us live and try to save some semblance of an economy and society. I'm not willing to go through further lockdowns so Paddy Murphy can jet off to Lanzarote or so Pablo can go home for a visit and come back again. Stuff them. :mad:
faceman wrote: » But again to point out, being part of the EU has meant not everyone lives and works in just Ireland, and not everyone has their family and network in Ireland. Closing borders for what would be a period of years is unrealistic
faceman wrote: » Come on Danno, you’re more clever than that. Let’s not be stupid about this. Of course if arrived through travel. But if 1,000 people have it right now, it wasn’t 1,000 people who brought it on a plane. It was merely a few people who at the time weren’t required to get tested prior to arrival So if it’s only a small number who arrived with it on boat or plane or from the north, how did the spread in Ireland? Because people didn’t follow the rules. Went to houses, went to packed pubs and restaurants, didn’t wear masks. Those numbers are way higher than those who didn’t self isolate on the return from travel. (And fook those who didn’t self isolate too) People need to be honest here. Blaming travel doesn’t alleviate responsibility and accountability If people were truly honest, the amount of people who genuinely followed the rules and guidelines this last year is probably a tiny statistic We now have stricter rules around travel But no new rules around all of the other major holes domestically. My hospital sources has told me that what’s not being discussed in the media is that the virus rate is not coming down fast enough even though Ireland has been in level 5 for a month.It ain’t travel that’s keeping the numbers high. But ya know, get the hysteria to the airport to distract from bigger issues Agree with you about repeated lockdowns and unnecessary holidays. But again to point out, being part of the EU has meant not everyone lives and works in just Ireland, and not everyone has their family and network in Ireland. Closing borders for what would be a period of years is unrealistic
faceman wrote: » Come on Danno, you’re more clever than that. Let’s not be stupid about this. Of course if arrived through travel. But if 1,000 people have it right now, it wasn’t 1,000 people who brought it on a plane. It was merely a few people who at the time weren’t required to get tested prior to arrival So if it’s only a small number who arrived with it on boat or plane or from the north, how did the spread in Ireland?Because people didn’t follow the rules. Went to houses, went to packed pubs and restaurants, didn’t wear masks. Those numbers are way higher than those who didn’t self isolate on the return from travel. (And fook those who didn’t self isolate too) People need to be honest here. Blaming travel doesn’t alleviate responsibility and accountability If people were truly honest, the amount of people who genuinely followed the rules and guidelines this last year is probably a tiny statistic We now have stricter rules around travel But no new rules around all of the other major holes domestically. My hospital sources has told me that what’s not being discussed in the media is that the virus rate is not coming down fast enough even though Ireland has been in level 5 for a month. It ain’t travel that’s keeping the numbers high. But ya know, get the hysteria to the airport to distract from bigger issues Agree with you about repeated lockdowns and unnecessary holidays. But again to point out, being part of the EU has meant not everyone lives and works in just Ireland, and not everyone has their family and network in Ireland. Closing borders for what would be a period of years is unrealistic
gozunda wrote: » It may not be "keeping them high" but it sure as hell is what primed our intial wave of infection. Ditto the more recent Uk and Spanish Covid varients. Top that with the much higher rate of infection even with level 5 restrictions and we're now back to where we started. It's simply unfeasible to continue to allow people to come and go without full quarantine and a massive crackdown on eejits who absolutely must have their holidays. Australia* and New Zealand has implemented a quota system to allow those who need to travel do so. If they can do it we can come up with some workable solution to allow our internal restrictions to at least be relaxed on a more permanent basis. *https://www.smartraveller.gov.au/news-and-updates/limits-passenger-flights-australia
lawrencesummers wrote: » In that paragraph on where people are acquiring infection you have not mentioned any of the places where most infection has occurred, hospitals, nursing homes, workplaces. Nobody is saying restrictions on travel is going to solve everything, but it’s a large piece of the jigsaw that has been ignored up until now.
acequion wrote: » Yes we're in a pandemic, yes this virus is dangerous and yes travel needs to be restricted. But those proposing an indefinite outright ban on travel are either lacking empathy or haven't properly thought it through.
faceman wrote: » We're back to where we started primarily because: * The nation lost its marbles in December and going nuts socially with UK Variant infections flowing in over our borders, * Ireland opened too quickly when cases were still high owing to cases still circulating from Summer holidays to Spain and others * Cases were still high during the last lockdown. No one has scrutinised that, but ultimately its down to a lack of adherence to restrictions by the public who are sick to the teeth of lockdowns and after getting cases down under ten per day after lockdown 1 have said "fcuk it" couldn't be ar$ed with the government and international travellers pi$$ing down our collective backs and telling us we're sweating.
faceman wrote: » We're back to where we started primarily because: * The nation lost its marbles in December and going nuts socially, * Ireland opened too quickly when cases were still high * Cases were still high during the last lockdown. No one has scrutinised that, but ultimately its down to a lack of adherence to restrictions by the public.You can spin the travel narrative anyway you want, but you cant dispute the stats that support the above, available from the government website and as referenced by NPHET. Stats on travel are also available.NPHET have never pushed a Zero Covid strategy. People cant pick and choose when to support NPHET when they like. Alan Kelly is a great example. He has been at the forefront of calling from a close the airports strategy. The same Alan Kelly who lambasted NPHET and the government last year to the media when they wouldn't allow spectators at sports fixtures.And once again with the pointless Australia and New Zealand references. Are either of those countries part of a similar system like the EU that has promoted free movement of labour and people for decades? You cant just flip a switch and turn that off. NPHET knows this, the EU knows this, even the hardline pro lockdown governments know this. A meeting with EU members was held over a week ago and one of the topics on the agenda was a travel ban intra-EU. The media jumped on it and even MM teased it was coming. It didn't and isn't. It could come in the future if things dont improve, but no one is jumping on it.There comes a point gozunda where you have to look beyond the Prime Time tabloid nonsense, the media headlines and start to look at all sides of this. The glaringly obvious issue for Ireland that other EU nations dont have to worry about to the same degree is closing the republic's border won't keep the virus out. An all island approach won't keep the virus out. Theres no way the mythical 2 island approach is going to lock both countries in unison with widespread sharing of data. Its not going to happen So we can have a free for all on travel and we cant lock everything down. So what can we do? Well we have already started that. (at last) I guarantee you that we are going to see a dramatic shift in the coming weeks on the importation of cases. But my bigger hunch is that cases in Ireland will remain stubbornly high, just like they are now, a month into a level 5 lockdown. At that point, where will the gun be pointed?
Danno wrote: » It all boils down to this: * Irish people collectively have PROVEN that we can pretty much eradicate this virus. Proof - less than ten cases per day between mid-June and mid-July.* International travellers have PROVEN that they cannot be trusted to not re-introduce the virus in to our community. Proof - following summer holidays, over 60% of cases were directly linked to Spain; over 60% of cases directly linked to UK variant post Christmas. Denying that takes some mental gymnastics.
Danno wrote: » It all boils down to this: * Irish people collectively have PROVEN that we can pretty much eradicate this virus. Proof - less than ten cases per day between mid-June and mid-July. * International travellers have PROVEN that they cannot be trusted to not re-introduce the virus in to our community. Proof - following summer holidays, over 60% of cases were directly linked to Spain; over 60% of cases directly linked to UK variant post Christmas. Denying that takes some mental gymnastics.
faceman wrote: » I think we will have to leave it there, we’re never going to see eye to eye on this, and you’ve now segregated people into “Irish” and “international”. I respect the difference of opinion people have but I have to draw a line with where this is heading.
Sleety_Rain wrote: » This type of thing makes my blood boil. Just because the Spanish variant was dominant in late summer does not mean international travel drove the virus spread!!! It meant it came in and as dominant replaced the other type of virus, the other type of virus would still have been around somewhere and continued to spread, 60% related to travel to Spain is just an untrue statement.[/QUOTE] Sorry, but I listen to the science on this one: https://www.newstalk.com/news/coronavirus-60-irish-cases-traced-one-strain-spain-1099162
faceman wrote: » I think we will have to leave it there, we’re never going to see eye to eye on this
Sleety_Rain wrote: » This type of thing makes my blood boil. Just because the Spanish variant was dominant in late summer does not mean international travel drove the virus spread!!! It meant it came in and as dominant replaced the other type of virus, the other type of virus would still have been around somewhere and continued to spread, 60% related to travel to Spain is just an untrue statement.
Sleety_Rain wrote: » If we actually want to drive the virus out to pretty much zero youd need around 4 months stay at home order and then keep the borders sealed.
Sleety_Rain wrote: » This type of thing makes my blood boil.
Danno wrote: » That is perfectly fine. You think its morally right for me, my neighbours and my wider community to stay restricted in level 5 lockdown for a long time to come so those who wish to travel in and out of the country can continue do so with little restriction. The right for some to travel trumps the right for others to live some semblance of a normal life, have I got that right?
Danno wrote: » Good, that's the purpose of debate, and the first to loose their cool are usually those who have lost the argument. Everything I have said has been proven. I have said nothing that cannot be backed up by statements made by the scientific community. Listen to the science.
acequion wrote: » Except you have completely forgotten our EU membership and the facts that thousands in Ireland, both Irish and foreign are not self sufficient within Ireland alone. Or perhaps you haven't forgotten, perhaps you just don't care about those people and don't care about EU membership and all it entails. Your posts are very extreme in one direction so there really isn't much point in trying to debate with you. Lastly, I will say that no other EU country is implementing what you suggest. Short term closures as part of wider lockdown restrictions, yes. But if I understand correctly you advocate going much further than that.
gozunda wrote: » No country in the world is totally self sufficient. Doesn't mean restrictions should not be applied to stop unnecessary movement in and out of the state and potentially allow internal restrictions to be reduced. More importantly watch this space as it looks like Germany is moving towards restricting cross border travel and reducing air travel to Germany to more or less zerohttps://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/germany-mulls-complete-air-travel-ban-to-deal-with-virus-powder-keg-1.4468546 Hopefully this will enable the rest of the EU to do so for at least the immediate future and until we can get things properly under control.
