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Do all broadband providers use the same network/ cabling infrastructure

Cuttlefish

Bit of a novice question here with regards Broadband

Currently with Eir and have been for over ten years and they can be hit and miss with quality of service lets not talk about customer service!!

Anyways do the likes of Vodafone/ Virgin etc use the existing Eir infrastructure to provide their broadband services straight to your house?

Or do they bring in new wiring or use other methods?

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The Cush

Cuttlefish wrote: »

Anyways do the likes of Vodafone/ Virgin etc use the existing Eir infrastructure to provide their broadband services straight to your house?

Or do they bring in new wiring or use other methods?

Virgin use their own network.
Eir use their own copper and fibre network.
Vodafone and others use eir's copper and fibre network and also the SIRO fibre network.

The new National Broadband Plan fibre network being built by NBI will be available to all retail service providers that sign up - https://nbi.ie/where-can-i-buy/

TheDriver

Cuttlefish wrote: »

Bit of a novice question here with regards Broadband

Currently with Eir and have been for over ten years and they can be hit and miss with quality of service lets not talk about customer service!!

Anyways do the likes of Vodafone/ Virgin etc use the existing Eir infrastructure to provide their broadband services straight to your house?

Or do they bring in new wiring or use other methods?

There's 5 methods of BB delivery
a) virgin wires. Sold only by virgin
b) through your copper phone line. Owned by openeir and resold through many retailers e.g eir/sky/vodafone/digiweb etc etc. ADSL means it's connected to a fibre cabinet whereas DSL means it's copper all the way. Max speed on ADSL is 100Mb
c) Fibre to the home with OpenEir. Max speed 1000Mb, can be purchased through a few retailers e.g. eir/vodafone/sky
d) Fibre to the home with SIRO via ESB ducts. Max speed 1000Mb. Sold my vodafone/sky/digiweb etc
e) wireless such a satelites, aerials, 4G modems.

Cuttlefish

TheDriver wrote: »

There's 5 methods of BB delivery
a) virgin wires. Sold only by virgin
b) through your copper phone line. Owned by openeir and resold through many retailers e.g eir/sky/vodafone/digiweb etc etc. ADSL means it's connected to a fibre cabinet whereas DSL means it's copper all the way. Max speed on ADSL is 100Mb
c) Fibre to the home with OpenEir. Max speed 1000Mb, can be purchased through a few retailers e.g. eir/vodafone/sky
d) Fibre to the home with SIRO via ESB ducts. Max speed 1000Mb. Sold my vodafone/sky/digiweb etc
e) wireless such a satelites, aerials, 4G modems.

So I am with Eir and so on option b) above.

It hasn't been the best and I had one of their engineers out a while before Christmas and he mentioned that eventually the final link to each household, ie the copper phone lines, will eventually be replaced with fibre in my particular situation (and could be for many households) the copper wiring is now behind stud partition/ tiling for a downstairs toilet/ kitchen as most wiring entered the house via ducting into the garage (3 bed semi constructs) and under a new driveway. Is what the engineer said true?

What is option d) like?

CoBo55

TheDriver wrote: »

There's 5 methods of BB delivery
a) virgin wires. Sold only by virgin
b) through your copper phone line. Owned by openeir and resold through many retailers e.g eir/sky/vodafone/digiweb etc etc. ADSL means it's connected to a fibre cabinet whereas DSL means it's copper all the way. Max speed on ADSL is 100Mb
c) Fibre to the home with OpenEir. Max speed 1000Mb, can be purchased through a few retailers e.g. eir/vodafone/sky
d) Fibre to the home with SIRO via ESB ducts. Max speed 1000Mb. Sold my vodafone/sky/digiweb etc
e) wireless such a satelites, aerials, 4G modems.

vDSL is copper twisted pair (phone line) connected to a cabinet and fibre back to the exchange max theoretical speed is 100Mb determined by distance from the cabinet not the exchange. DSL and ADSL are the same thing also distance dependant from the exchange, it's copper all the way back to the exchange.

CoBo55

Cuttlefish wrote: »

So I am with Eir and so on option b) above.

It hasn't been the best and I had one of their engineers out a while before Christmas and he mentioned that eventually the final link to each household, ie the copper phone lines, will eventually be replaced with fibre in my particular situation (and could be for many households) the copper wiring is now behind stud partition/ tiling for a downstairs toilet/ kitchen as most wiring entered the house via ducting into the garage (3 bed semi constructs) and under a new driveway. Is what the engineer said true?

What is option d) like?

The quickest way to see what's available is to go to the Vodafone site and put your address into the checker, let us know what it tells you. Try the Virgin media site too.

Cuttlefish

CoBo55 wrote: »

The quickest way to see what's available is to go to the Vodafone site and put your address into the checker, let us know what it tells you. Try the Virgin media site too.

OK so vodafone speedchecker says we can get up to 85Mbps

NewClareman

Copper/Telephone Line Infrastructure

In Ireland this is owned by eircom and managed by its wholesale division 'open eir'. Multiple providers, including eir retail, then rent this infrastructure to provide a service to their customers. DSL is used to provide broadband over the copper pair. The term is used, regardless of whether the copper cable goes all the way to the exchange, or terminates on a cabinet or other termination point.

There are many variants of DSL, with different bandwidths. Not all are used in Ireland, for various reasons. Examples, that are used:

Common name Downstream rate Upstream rate
ADSL2 12.0 Mbit/s 3.5 Mbit/s
ADSL2+ 24.0 Mbit/s 1.4 Mbit/s
VDSL 55 Mbit/s 3 Mbit/s
VDSL2 200 Mbit/s 100 Mbit/s

The biggest issue with DSL is that, unlike fibre, the speed falls off with distance. That is why DSL products are often marketed as 'up to' a certain speed. The speed is also very dependent on the correct cabling in the premises and the condition of the telephone cable. When you use a 'Speed Checker' it is showing the maximum speed you could get, based on ideal conditions. In practice you will get less than this.

Why is it called DSL?
Back in the day, Telco's had monopolies and those lucky enough to get a telephone line were called subscribers. The copper pair from the exchange to the telephone was called a subscriber line. When digital signals started to be transmitted over that cable the term DSL (Digital Subscriber Line) was used.

NewClareman

Cuttlefish wrote: »

OK so vodafone speedchecker says we can get up to 85Mbps

Ok, so Vodafone would provide broadband to you using copper (VDSL2) from open eir and that speed is the maximum you can currently get, from them, over copper.

With copper the quality of the internal house wiring is critical. Ideally you want access to where the copper cable is terminated in the house. Once a master socket with DSL filter is fitted there, the broadband is isolated from the remainder of the house wiring. This can give you a substantial speed increase.

Another issue is that eircom may be using older technology for your line, as your with them over 10 years. If you're getting speeds below 24Mbps it is likely that you're on the older ADSL technology.

Cuttlefish

"Ideally you want access to where the copper cable is terminated in the house. Once a master socket with DSL filter is fitted there, the broadband is isolated from the remainder of the house wiring"

Therein lies my problem as I know that the copper cabling came into the house through ducting into the garage and from there into the hallway where my eFibre router currently resides

NewClareman

Cuttlefish wrote: »

"Ideally you want access to where the copper cable is terminated in the house. Once a master socket with DSL filter is fitted there, the broadband is isolated from the remainder of the house wiring"

Therein lies my problem as I know that the copper cabling came into the house through ducting into the garage and from there into the hallway where my eFibre router currently resides

Ok, well if you have an efibre router it means that you are on VDSL, most likely from a fibre node. There would be no benefit, from a speed perspective, moving to Vodafone. If you have access to the cable in the garage, it could be worth your while checking that you have a good connection there. Otherwise see if you can get service from Virgin or Siro.

Cuttlefish

NewClareman wrote: »

Ok, well if you have an efibre router it means that you are on VDSL, most likely from a fibre node. There would be no benefit, from a speed perspective, moving to Vodafone. If you have access to the cable in the garage, it could be worth your while checking that you have a good connection there. Otherwise see if you can get service from Virgin or Siro.

OK understand what you are saying re: VDSL, when you say fibre node what do you mean? My very basic understanding is that it is fibre to a small exchange cabinet that is located out on a main road about 300 metres from then housing estate where i am

With respect to Siro [ESB] would that have to bring their own cabling into the house?

CoBo55

Cuttlefish wrote: »

OK understand what you are saying re: VDSL, when you say fibre node what do you mean? My very basic understanding is that it is fibre to a small exchange cabinet that is located out on a main road about 300 metres from then housing estate where i am

With respect to Siro [ESB] would that have to bring their own cabling into the house?

You can't get siro, it would have said you can get 1000 Mb on the VF site. Did you try VM? As others have said all you can do from your end is to run a new length of twisted pair from the house entry point to the router. Make sure it's proper solid copper twisted pair not that cheap stranded stuff you see in hardware shops. I replaced a length of that stuff in my father's house with proper copper and it transformed the connection.
I used this cable in the Fathers from the entry point to the router and it's perfect for what you need, he was getting a rock solid 85Mb afterwards.
https://www.freetv.ie/phone-cable-100m/

TheDriver

Cuttlefish wrote: »

OK understand what you are saying re: VDSL, when you say fibre node what do you mean? My very basic understanding is that it is fibre to a small exchange cabinet that is located out on a main road about 300 metres from then housing estate where i am

With respect to Siro [ESB] would that have to bring their own cabling into the house?

yes, generally through the duct into your ESB box. Video on siro website shows all.
They have the rollout calendar. If you're not on it, it could be years. Same with eir fibre, don't expect anything in the coming months unless you see vans around doing work on poles.

For VDSL, there's so many providers of eirs copper product. If you can get 85Mb, thats not shabby at all and would serve a regular household well in the absence of FTTH

Cuttlefish

TheDriver wrote: »

yes, generally through the duct into your ESB box. Video on siro website shows all.
They have the rollout calendar. If you're not on it, it could be years. Same with eir fibre, don't expect anything in the coming months unless you see vans around doing work on poles.

For VDSL, there's so many providers of eirs copper product. If you can get 85Mb, thats not shabby at all and would serve a regular household well in the absence of FTTH

cheers for that

Is FTTH the way all houses will eventually be served?

CoBo55

Cuttlefish wrote: »

cheers for that

Is FTTH the way all houses will eventually be served?

Supposedly, all here is wired for siro since last February and not a sign of it going live, try and get the best out of what you have for starters.

NewClareman

Cuttlefish wrote: »

OK understand what you are saying re: VDSL, when you say fibre node what do you mean? My very basic understanding is that it is fibre to a small exchange cabinet that is located out on a main road about 300 metres from then housing estate where i am

Awkward wording, on my part. In this case the 'node' is a kerbside cabinet.
(The point I was trying to make was that someone can be served by VDSL direct from the exchange.)

CoBo55 wrote: »

Make sure it's proper solid copper twisted pair not that cheap stranded stuff you see in hardware shops. I replaced a length of that stuff in my father's house with proper copper and it transformed the connection.
I used this cable in the Fathers from the entry point to the router and it's perfect for what you need, he was getting a rock solid 85Mb afterwards.
https://www.freetv.ie/phone-cable-100m/

One of the problems with older houses is that DSL was not even on the horizon. Anything and everything was used for internal wiring, even alarm cable. The only sure way to get maximum possible speed is to connect to the DSL modem at the earliest possible point.
(By the way, Cat5e cable will work just as well a telephone cable. It is much easier, and cheaper, to get this in smaller rolls.)

TheDriver wrote: »

For VDSL, there's so many providers of eirs copper product. If you can get 85Mb, thats not shabby at all and would serve a regular household well in the absence of FTTH

There is no guarantee that the OP can get 85Mbps, that's the maximum he could get. One option is to talk to neighbours, to see who is getting the best speed. That should then be the target, when looking at areas such as replacing internal wiring.

(Unless things have changed dramatically, the Speed Test provided by eir uses a very simple set of rules to give a speed estimate. For example, there is no attempt made to query the DSL equipment to determine what speed other uses served from the same pole, or distribution cabinet, are getting.)

Gooey Looey

NewClareman wrote: »

(Unless things have changed dramatically, the Speed Test provided by eir uses a very simple set of rules to give a speed estimate. For example, there is no attempt made to query the DSL equipment to determine what speed other uses served from the same pole, or distribution cabinet, are getting.)

Speeds are estimated by the attenuation on the line. The test gets ran periodically and the results are added to a database but open Eir support can also do live tests

ED E

I think he gets that, but is suggested using other APQ values to improve accuracy. Fact is the records arent there to do so. DSLAM measured dAtten is the only way to measure, only useful if the path is intact.

Sometimes the line cap is more accurate but the APQ doesnt consider this.

ED E

NewClareman wrote: »

(The point I was trying to make was that someone can be served by VDSL direct from the exchange, though its not common in Ireland.)

Its not uncommon. Lots of the original exchanges were built without copper patch points and thus the only option is for exchanged launched VDSL for as far as itll reach.

An OLO rep could probably share the figure but its non trivial.

NewClareman

Gooey Looey wrote: »

Speeds are estimated by the attenuation on the line. The test gets ran periodically and the results are added to a database but open Eir support can also do live tests

It appears that nothing much has changed. They are not accurate as do they not take account of the variant of DSL used, or the noise environment of a specific cable. It's a pity, really, as far more accurate information is available in the DSLAM. All it would take is cross reference this to a specific DP or distribution cabinet.

I had forgotten that that eir support can do a live test on a line. It is useful in identifying a line fault but will not identify lines that are behaving sub-optimally. This can only be achieved by comparing the performance with neighbouring lines.

NewClareman

ED E wrote: »

Its not uncommon. Lots of the original exchanges were built without copper patch points and thus the only option is for exchanged launched VDSL for as far as itll reach.

An OLO rep could probably share the figure but its non trivial.

Yeah, I knew there was some, but my information is long out of date.

I don't get your your point about copper patch points?

(Just to be clear, I'm talking about VDSL as against ADSL. A significant number of premises are served using ADSL, direct from the exchange.)

ED E

NewClareman wrote: »

I don't get your your point about copper patch points?

VDSL cabs are only installed where a legacy CPP exists. If theres no cab in the original design from the 70s for ex then no VDSL MSAN can be installed.

Skerries is an example, the area around the exchange is the oldest part of town. All df. Newer estates came later and copper cabinets were added as they expanded the footprint.

NewClareman

Gooey Looey wrote: »

Speeds are estimated by the attenuation on the line. The test gets ran periodically and the results are added to a database but open Eir support can also do live tests

ED E wrote: »

I think he gets that, but is suggested using other APQ values to improve accuracy. Fact is the records arent there to do so. DSLAM measured dAtten is the only way to measure, only useful if the path is intact.

Sometimes the line cap is more accurate but the APQ doesnt consider this.

Yeah, I get it

Exactly, DSLAM measured dAtten and SNR, using the correct version of xDSL is the only accurate measure. Even if the path to a particular premises is not intact, it is possible to get a good estimate, based on neighbouring premises. This is not difficult to implement.

ED E wrote: »

VDSL cabs are only installed where a legacy CPP exists. If theres no cab in the original design from the 70s for ex then no VDSL MSAN can be installed.

Skerries is an example, the area around the exchange is the oldest part of town. All df. Newer estates came later and copper cabinets were added as they expanded the footprint.

Ah, ok - get it now. Thanks.

NBAiii

There are about 370000 exchange fed VDSL (eVDSL) paths in the country spread across approximately 940 exchanges, so it is not remotely uncommon.

NewClareman

NBAiii wrote: »

There are about 370000 exchange fed VDSL (eVDSL) paths in the country spread across approximately 940 exchanges, so it is not remotely uncommon.

Ok, I think we may be at cross purposes. When I originally referred to VDSL direct from the exchange I was talking of having VDSL cards in an exchange located DSLAM. At one stage this was considered a niche use case, as outside city centres most local loops were too long. I wasn't aware of eVDSL, as it wasn't an option when I was involved in that area.

There was talk of the exchange line card incorporating DSL. Did this come to anything, or are they still using only separate DSLAM's?

NBAiii

NewClareman wrote: »

Ok, I think we may be at cross purposes. When I originally referred to VDSL direct from the exchange I was talking of having VDSL cards in an exchange located DSLAM. At one stage this was considered a niche use case, as outside city centres most local loops were too long. I wasn't aware of eVDSL, as it wasn't an option when I was involved in that area.

There was talk of the exchange line card incorporating DSL. Did this come to anything, or are they still using only separate DSLAM's?

xDSL hardware is not my area of expertise so I can't say for the DSLAMs.

AutoTuning

NBAiii wrote: »

There are about 370000 exchange fed VDSL (eVDSL) paths in the country spread across approximately 940 exchanges, so it is not remotely uncommon.

There are only: 560,209 residential and 78,944 business subscriptions in total and the majority are FTTC (cabinet launched not exchange based).

VDSL
<2Mbps. 0%
2Mbps - 9.99Mbps 2.0%
=10Mbps - 29.99Mbps 9.8%
=30Mbps - 99.99Mbps 88.2% (mostly cabinet bases or short lines from exchange).

There’s fairly significant progress with FTTP (fibre to the premises) from both openEir and Siro.

Residential 2020: Q1 191,308 vs Q2 212,566

With the Urban rollout underway now that will accelerate very rapidly. So you’ll likely see FTTH replacing VDSL as the largest share of fixed broadband within a few years.

NewClareman wrote: »

There was talk of the exchange line card incorporating DSL. Did this come to anything, or are they still using only separate DSLAM's?

To be quite honest that doesn’t really make much difference either way. They’re moving away from the classic digital exchanges, which use TDM (time division multiplexing) technology for voice and ISDN and over to VoIP platforms. In general, if you’ve FTTH, cable or fast VDSL your voice services will be more likely delivered using VoBB (voice over broadband) using VoIP enabled router. That’s already standard issue for most new broadband subscriptions on VDSL or FTTH and had always been the case on cable services.

They’ll retain the ability to provide voice over copper using much smaller VoIP based MSAN technology in the exchange. Ultimately that will likely be a fairly niche product for a % of people who hang onto dial tone services. Eir has already applied to ComReg asking to shut down basic rate ISDN by 2024, as they’re not intending to retain it on any MSAN platform.

The digital exchanges are at or beyond end of life at this stage. It’s easy to forget that we’re now looking at technology that is up to 40 years old (with incremental updates along the way) Their vendors didn’t expect them to be in service at this stage, so they’re really no longer actively supported as current technology. So any of the landline providers around the world still using them need to get a move on.

In the past decade or so, the notion that these companies are primarily telephone operators has been turned on its head. Eir is a broadband provider that has legacy voice services. Virgin is a broadband company that has legacy tv services. Their voice and television services are really just applications on a broadband access network nowadays. So the idea of combining DSL and voice on single line cards is a bit irrelevant nowadays.

TheDriver

AutoTuning wrote: »

There’s fairly significant progress with FTTP (fibre to the premises) from both openEir and Siro.

Residential 2020: Q1 191,308 vs Q2 212,566

With the Urban rollout underway now that will accelerate very rapidly. So you’ll likely see FTTH replacing VDSL as the largest share of fixed broadband within a few years.
.

Most people don't have a bulls notion about VDSL vs FTTH and will happily just ring up Sky etc and just renew FTTC or stay with eir because they're scared they'll be cut off if they move. Also a few people here weren't happy that work had to be done to bring the FTTH cable into the house.

AutoTuning

Sure I had someone from a large telco tell me blatant lies about products on a sales call. Apparently their VDSL is superior to cable for a large number of entirely made up reasons.

I also had a chat with a guy moaning and moaning about the state of broadband in his village. He was on ADSL and paying way over the odds, yet the whole area was wired for FTTH. He was just in misery me - “sure there’s no brooaaadband, other than above in Dublin!” mode.

TheDriver

AutoTuning wrote: »

Sure I had someone from a large telco tell me blatant lies about products on a sales call. Apparently their VDSL is superior to cable for a large number of entirely made up reasons.

I also had a chat with a guy moaning and moaning about the state of broadband in his village. He was on ADSL and paying way over the odds, yet the whole area was wired for FTTH. He was just in misery me - “sure there’s no brooaaadband, other than above in Dublin!” mode.

It's up there with the "my wifi is poor" that people say. Your wifi has nothing to do with your broadband connection, it's the equipment/topography/walls etc.