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The Dominance of Dublin GAA Mod warning post#1

seligehgit

Discussion of all matters relating to this contentious subject is welcome and the potential implications of same.This thread is solely for this purpose.

There appears to be a perception that the moderators are attempting to shut down discussion of this topic and direct same off to a low traffic stickied thread.Nothing could be further from the truth.Our sole motive was to confine discussion to a single thread and prevent cross thread posting which was adversely affecting the enjoyment of fellow posters.

Can we please keep posts civil and constructive in nature.

The Changes in the GAA-super thread is now for discussion of all other suggested reforms not relating to Dublin GAA.

Extra Mod Warning:
Right, a separate warning to both sides in this debate:
Firstly, any more mentioning of "financial doping" or any intimation that rules have been broken by Dublin or that Dublin have cheated are banned from now on. You can debate the issue of the funding that Dublin have received without resorting to that. There is zero evidence of it and posting about it will be considered trolling from here on in.

Secondly, this topic is, like it or not, a big talking point in gaelic football at the moment. You are more than welcome to argue your point, but posting in this thread to simply mock those on the other side or complaining about the topic is known as thread spoiling and is specifically banned in the charter (see point 8 here). No one is forcing you to click on this thread and no one is forcing you to post in it. If you don't like the topic, then don't post. It's as simple as that.

This thread is here so that all the discussion is in one place and it won't filter into other threads. This makes it easier to ignore for posters who don't really want to be involved in it. As a result, we haven't really been moderating it as severely as other threads. However, a number of posts recently from both sides are sailing too close to the wind and getting borderline personal. So please take a minute before you hit submit to ensure that your post won't fall foul of the rules. We'll have no hesitation in issuing cards and/or threadbans to posters who fail to heed this warning.

Please report any posts that you feel break the rules.

Any questions, please feel free to PM the mods.

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ArielAtom

beggars_bush wrote: »

Most counties have debts due to financing structural development.
Wheras Dublin have spent feck all on their ground or on training facilities
Choosing instead to piggyback on the stadium funded by all other counties and the tax payer
and training facilities funded by the tax payer - 3rd level colleges.

As has been stated before Dublin do the majority of their training at a club ground. They do use some 3rd level facilities at times, but are you telling me that every 3rd level facility outside of Dublin is not used by the county team? The move to playing games at HQ was not a Dublin idea. Croke Park upkeep has to be paid for, asking Dublin to play games there goes a long way to meet the running costs.

I am all for Dublin playing elsewhere. Move them to Parnell Park, it would mean no opposition crowds as the season ticket and Parnell pass holder would fill it themselves. I myself would lose out as I get my tickets through my club. Then wait and see who will pick up the maintenance and operating costs of Croke Park.

County boards would not like that, hence why they have continuously voted to keep Dublin playing their games in HQ.

[Deleted User]

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Name any sport that has done as you are suggesting?

It's not too different from how the championship/ GAA is currently structured, just adjusted for changing demographics and the impact of financial doping. Don't forget Dublin are no longer even considered as a single county for administrative purposes because of their sheer scale.

Again, it's not total equalisation for all counties, there will still be some differences, but Dublin would be fairly split. .

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Name any sport that has done as you are suggesting?

No split should happen. Pre this so called financial doping how many titles had Dublin actually won?

The second most.

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

It isnt. Man United if in League 2 would have dropped based on their standing on the pitch. Countless teams have went from top divisions in soccer down the divisions based on their ability. Dublin should play more championship games outside of Croke Park and Dublin but that was in power of counties on many occasions who chose not to let it happen.

I mean it Man United were dropped in to League 2 unnaturally, without being relegated naturally. This should have been obvious.

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

The competition isnt dying. It is an amatuer organisation but pooling all resources just leads to less money in long term. Why would AIG or Kerry Group give 4million to their county if that money isnt going towards who they are sponsoring. That makes no sense. How is Dublin or Kerrys income artificially boosted. Dublin being split primarily and overwhelmingly helps the counties who are regularly in finals and all ireland semi finals and does nothing for a lot of counties.

The competition is dying, declining interest and attendances year on year, a growing clamour for Dublin to be split. It wouldn't lead to lower money. AIG or Kerry Group would continue donating because their incentive (i.e to advertise their business via a particular county) is the same no matter where the money goes. AIG don't love Dublin GAA, they just want to grow their business.

Dublin being split helps all counties.

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

It will be completely artificial. There would be no affiliation with a made up team which has no history, no past or anything else beyond being set up in 202x

There would be affiliation as it would still be geographically based and people's fellow club members would still be competing. Derby matches between Dublin subdivisional sides would be big events.

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

No it wont. Most counties have never challenged for all irelands. Most counties see a provincial title as the height of success and anything after as a bonus.

It helps all counties by ensuring the survival of the otherwise dying competition.

Mehapoy wrote: »

Everything else may be true but this Croker being Dublin's home ground is ridiculous stuff, you'd think the GAA only started using Croke Park for finals and semi finals in the last 10 years! Sure Dublin should be playing Leinster games outside CP more, provided the expected crowd is approved for the ground, but semi finals and finals are for Croker.
Think one measure that should be implemented is counties sponsorship should be shared into a central pot to be shared equally among all inter county squads.

Croke Park is their home ground. They've played all their league games there for the last decade.

dunnerc

gaffer91 wrote: »

It's not too different from how the championship/ GAA is currently structured, just adjusted for changing demographics and the impact of financial doping. Don't forget Dublin are no longer even considered as a single county for administrative purposes because of their sheer scale.

Again, it's not total equalisation for all counties, there will still be some differences, but Dublin would be fairly split. Don't forget Dublin are no longer even considered as a single county for administrative purposes because of their s

Again No split will be acceptable to Dublin , unless amalgamation are on the table .

The competition is dying, declining interest and attendances year on year, a growing clamour for Dublin to be split. It wouldn't lead to lower money. AIG or Kerry Group would continue donating because their incentive (i.e to advertise their business via a particular county) is the same no matter where the money goes. AIG don't love Dublin GAA, they just want to grow their business.

Are you a member of the AIG or Kerry group ?

Dublin being split helps all counties.

No it doesnt , it will do nothing for Leitrim , Sligo . Waterford wicklow etc....

There would be affiliation as it would still be geographically based and people's fellow club members would still be competing. Derby matches between Dublin subdivisional sides would be big events in the city.

No they wouldnt no Dublin GAA supporter would entertain this nonsense

It helps all counties by ensuring the survival of the otherwise dying
competition.

Nonsense it will only help a handfull of counties , Kerry , Mayo ,Tyrone ,Donegal

Croke Park is their home ground. They've played all their league games there for the last decade.

Dublin play were they are told to play , who keeps voting to keep them there ?

howiya

gaffer91 wrote: »

It wouldn't lead to lower money. AIG or Kerry Group would continue donating because their incentive (i.e to advertise their business via a particular county) is the same no matter where the money goes. AIG don't love Dublin GAA, they just want to grow their business.

It would 100% lead to lower money, especially if it was done at the same time as splitting up Dublin.

I actually agree with pooling sponsorship and set budgets for county teams. However anyone with any knowledge of sports marketing would tell you it will lead to reduced money. That in itself isn't a problem as it still means the gap between Dublin/Kerry and others closes.

Some of the reasons it'll lead to reduced money.

1) no incentive for county board officers to get the best deal possible. If the money is going elsewhere they are possibly incentivised to accept worse (financial terms) offers. That's not to say they're bad sponsorship offers, could still be good for the brand and promotion etc.

2) Destruction of the Dublin "brand". If a company is paying Dublin €4m over x amount of years, it doesn't mean that there are four companies out there willing to pay €1m each for sponsorship of the four new teams over the same term. Don't forget some of the AIG money also goes to LGFA and Camogie who are different organisations. This portion of the money wouldnt go into a GAA pool.

3) You refer to AIG/Kerry Group wanting to promote their business. They do this by associating themselves with successful teams. There is no guarantee AIG see sticking with one of your made up Dublin teams as good for their brand.

4) If there is a split in football but not in other codes the "brand" loses its appeal and will attract less money.

There are countless other reasons but they'd be the top ones in my opinion.

As I said I agree with pooling sponsorship but it's very naive to expect that it'll take in the same amount of money. That is not the goal of pooling sponsorship.

largepants

dunnerc wrote: »

Dublin play were they are told to play , who keeps voting to keep them there ?

Where is there a vote on where Dublin play?

is there a vote where Laois play? Or Westmeath?

Fann Linn

largepants wrote: »

Where is there a vote on where Dublin play?

is there a vote where Laois play? Or Westmeath?

Leinster council sit around at the start of every year and decide on fixtures etc.
Home teams would normally have home advantage however as is the case most counties playing Dublin renege on that to play in Croker.
If Wicklow or Laois etc want to play Dublin in their county grounds they just have to say so.
Dublin aren't forcing other Leinster counties into Croke Park every year.
They opt to go themselves.

dunnerc

largepants wrote: »

Where is there a vote on where Dublin play?

is there a vote where Laois play? Or Westmeath?

See post 4211

The Lost Sheep

gaffer91 wrote: »

It's not too different from how the championship/ GAA is currently structured, just adjusted for changing demographics and the impact of financial doping. Don't forget Dublin are no longer even considered as a single county for administrative purposes because of their sheer scale.

There isnt financial doping. That Dublin isnt administered on that scale doesnt mean the county doesnt exist, people dont identify as Dubliners. Its not like people now identify as being in these areas anywhere near if at all like people from Cork/Kerry/Donegal do from their counties.

Again, it's not total equalisation for all counties, there will still be some differences, but Dublin would be fairly split. .

Fairly split isnt true. It makes no difference to majority of counties who havent been competitive in terms of winning provincial/all irelands ever.

The second most.

Which they have been since the start of the championship in the 1890s. They have never not been either the most successful or second most successful county.

I mean it Man United were dropped in to League 2 unnaturally, without being relegated naturally. This should have been obvious.

That analogy isnt true though. As that wont happen/doesnt happen

The competition is dying, declining interest and attendances year on year, a growing clamour for Dublin to be split. It wouldn't lead to lower money. AIG or Kerry Group would continue donating because their incentive (i.e to advertise their business via a particular county) is the same no matter where the money goes. AIG don't love Dublin GAA, they just want to grow their business.

Dublin being split helps all counties.

Tipp and Cavan making the all ireland semi finals and winning first provincial titles in 23/85 years and Tipp making just a second semi final in 85 years shows the competition isnt dying and that interest isnt declining. Dublin being split will make no difference to any of the division 4 counties. Fewer opportunities to progress. Kerry Group/AIG give their money to a county for their success/their brand. They wont give that money if it isnt going to that counties teams/base.

There would be affiliation as it would still be geographically based and people's fellow club members would still be competing. Derby matches between Dublin subdivisional sides would be big events.

Why would there.. Geographic basis isnt alone going to drive interest.
How much did fingals hurling team drive interest/affiliation when it was in operation?

[Deleted User]

howiya wrote: »

It would 100% lead to lower money, especially if it was done at the same time as splitting up Dublin.

I actually agree with pooling sponsorship and set budgets for county teams. However anyone with any knowledge of sports marketing would tell you it will lead to reduced money. That in itself isn't a problem as it still means the gap between Dublin/Kerry and others closes.

Some of the reasons it'll lead to reduced money.

1) no incentive for county board officers to get the best deal possible. If the money is going elsewhere they are possibly incentivised to accept worse (financial terms) offers. That's not to say they're bad sponsorship offers, could still be good for the brand and promotion etc.

2) Destruction of the Dublin "brand". If a company is paying Dublin €4m over x amount of years, it doesn't mean that there are four companies out there willing to pay €1m each for sponsorship of the four new teams over the same term. Don't forget some of the AIG money also goes to LGFA and Camogie who are different organisations. This portion of the money wouldnt go into a GAA pool.

3) You refer to AIG/Kerry Group wanting to promote their business. They do this by associating themselves with successful teams. There is no guarantee AIG see sticking with one of your made up Dublin teams as good for their brand.

4) If there is a split in football but not in other codes the "brand" loses its appeal and will attract less money.

There are countless other reasons but they'd be the top ones in my opinion.

As I said I agree with pooling sponsorship but it's very naive to expect that it'll take in the same amount of money. That is not the goal of pooling sponsorship.

Fair enough, those are reasonable points. Only time will tell. Without pooling sponsorship and splitting Dublin there will be a huge reduction in sponsorship in a few years for all counties as the inter-county game dies.

[Deleted User]

dunnerc wrote: »

Dublin play were they are told to play , who keeps voting to keep them there ?

What votes are there on where to play the semi-final and finals? It has a bigger capacity sure, but it's still Dublin's home ground. Playing at home gives you an advantage in sport. And then a disproportionate amount of the money the GAA make is then pumped back into Dublin GAA, to their benefit and the detriment of every other county.

ShyMets

gaffer91 wrote: »

What votes are there on where to play the semi-final and finals? It has a bigger capacity sure, but it's still Dublin's home ground. Playing at home gives you an advantage in sport. And then a disproportionate amount of the money the GAA make is then pumped back into Dublin GAA, to their benefit and the detriment of every other county.

Whatever about the merit of moving semi finals from Croke Park which should be an option depending on the teams involved.

I firmly believe the All Ireland Final should in Croke Park regardless of whose playing

[Deleted User]

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

There isnt financial doping. That Dublin isnt administered on that scale doesnt mean the county doesnt exist, people dont identify as Dubliners. Its not like people now identify as being in these areas anywhere near if at all like people from Cork/Kerry/Donegal do from their counties.

Fairly split isnt true. It makes no difference to majority of counties who havent been competitive in terms of winning provincial/all irelands ever.

Which they have been since the start of the championship in the 1890s. They have never not been either the most successful or second most successful county.

That analogy isnt true though. As that wont happen/doesnt happen

Tipp and Cavan making the all ireland semi finals and winning first provincial titles in 23/85 years and Tipp making just a second semi final in 85 years shows the competition isnt dying and that interest isnt declining. Dublin being split will make no difference to any of the division 4 counties. Fewer opportunities to progress. Kerry Group/AIG give their money to a county for their success/their brand. They wont give that money if it isnt going to that counties teams/base.

Why would there.. Geographic basis isnt alone going to drive interest.
How much did fingals hurling team drive interest/affiliation when it was in operation?

Look I've no interest in going around again. Most of the points you raised I and others have already dealt with.

The inter-county game is dying as we see from declining interest, attendances and endless debates, now moving more and more into mainstream media, about splitting Dublin.

Not pooling sponsorship kills the game so will help result in an even larger reduction in funds in a few short years.

Not splitting Dublin will be what will drive illness as it kills the inter-county game because of their population, financial doping and other advantages.

And there will be a lot of interest for Dublin subdivisional sides in a few years if they were split. Look at the interest in provincial rugby created in a short period of time. And there is more geographical and personal identification with say a Northwest Dublin team.

And once again- splitting Dublin helps all counties. It saves the competition as an entity so everyone can still compete. No splitting Dublin kills it. So the split helps all counties, including Dublin.

[Deleted User]

ShyMets wrote: »

Whatever about the merit of moving semi finals from Croke Park which should be an option depending on the teams involved.

I firmly believe the All Ireland Final should in Croke Park regardless of whose playing

Not if Dublin are playing- it's their home ground. A neutral venue would be better for all finals. If some of those close finals against Mayo had been played in Castlebar or a neutral venue rather than Dublin being at home, it's conceivable they would have swung the other way.

ShyMets

gaffer91 wrote: »

Not if Dublin are playing- it's their home ground. A neutral venue would be better for all finals. If some of those close finals against Mayo had been played in Castlebar or a neutral venue rather than Dublin being at home, it's conceivable they would have swung the other way.

So you're basically saying Dublin should never play in Croke Park.

At this rate you'll soon be suggesting that Dublin should train in Athlone

dobman88

gaffer91 wrote: »

Not if Dublin are playing- it's their home ground. A neutral venue would be better for all finals. If some of those close finals against Mayo had been played in Castlebar or a neutral venue rather than Dublin being at home, it's conceivable they would have swung the other way.

Wow. I was completely joking when I said people would be looking for all Ireland semis and finals that Dublin are in to be moved from croke park with all this hysterical nonsense going on but there it is, someone is actually suggesting it.

This is astounding and that's saying something for this forum.

[Deleted User]

ShyMets wrote: »

So you're basically saying Dublin should never play in Croke Park.

At this rate you'll soon be suggesting that Dublin should train in Athlone

They can play their registered home games in Croke Park and other games if their opponents agree. They can continue training in Dublin of course, there are some fantastic state of the art facilities that are available to use free of charge there.

But for finals and semi-finals, it's very unfair that Dublin get to play at home every year, despite it being their home ground. It doesn't matter if that was the way it was historically done, it unfairly advantages Dublin, like many other things about the GAA.

I see sheep

dobman88 wrote: »

Wow. I was completely joking when I said people would be looking for all Ireland semis and finals that Dublin are in to be moved from croke park with all this hysterical nonsense going on but there it is, someone is actually suggesting it.

This is astounding and that's saying something for this forum.

Semi finals should always be a neutral venue, like they do for the FA Cup.
Just because it's been wrong until now doesn't mean it should keep happening.

[Deleted User]

dobman88 wrote: »

Wow. I was completely joking when I said people would be looking for all Ireland semis and finals that Dublin are in to be moved from croke park with all this hysterical nonsense going on but there it is, someone is actually suggesting it.

This is astounding and that's saying something for this forum.

It's the combination of advantages. If Dublin JUST had a huge population advantage, maybe it should be allowed to continue. If Dublin JUST had benefited from a massive unfair advantage, then maybe it's tolerable. Obviously history and heritage should be factored in, but they shouldn't be the only or even the decisive factor.

But when you take huge population advantage, overwhelming funding advantage and then also play the finals at their home stadium the situation becomes ridiculous.

If we split Dublin into four and equalised funding, it would be reasonable to go back playing finals involving Dublin teams there for a while possibly.

ShyMets

gaffer91 wrote: »

It's the combination of advantages. If Dublin JUST had a huge population advantage, maybe it should be allowed to continue. If Dublin JUST had benefited from a massive unfair advantage, then maybe it's tolerable. Obviously history and heritage should be factored in, but they shouldn't be the only or even the decisive factor.

But when you take huge population advantage, overwhelming funding advantage and then also play the finals at their home stadium the situation becomes ridiculous.

If we split Dublin into four and equalised funding, it would be reasonable to go back playing finals involving Dublin teams there for a while possibly.

If Dublin were spilt would you support compulsory amalgamations of other counties

dobman88

I see sheep wrote: »

Semi finals should always be a neutral venue.

I agree completely and that's why they are played in Croke Park.

[Deleted User]

ShyMets wrote: »

If Dublin were spilt would you support compulsory amalgamations of other counties

I already answered this question by you, several times. You don't see to have a great memory.

Voluntary amalgamations can be offered and counties can take them up if they see fit.

But Dublin should be split regardless, even if some GAA members in Dublin are opposed to it.

dobman88

gaffer91 wrote: »

It's the combination of advantages. If Dublin JUST had a huge population advantage, maybe it should be allowed to continue. If Dublin JUST had benefited from a massive unfair advantage, then maybe it's tolerable. Obviously history and heritage should be factored in, but they shouldn't be the only or even the decisive factor.

But when you take huge population advantage, overwhelming funding advantage and then also play the finals at their home stadium the situation becomes ridiculous.

If we split Dublin into four and equalised funding, it would be reasonable to go back playing finals involving Dublin teams there for a while possibly.

I'm not getting involved in all the other nonsense cos that's all it is. Complete nonsense and I've no time for it.

But to suggest the biggest games be moved from the national stadium is ludicrous. The only other venue capable of hosting a final is Landsdowne and if you held it there, people would still complain that it was in Dublin.

Semi finals and finals are played in Croke Park and changing that is a mental idea, even suggesting it sounds mental.

bocaman

Say we spilt Dublin in four along the current local council lines where do the four Dublins play their home games? If Parnell Park is used by the city what then about the other three area's? Will you end up constructing three new stadiums?

Who'll get to wear the traditional Dublin light blue?

Who'll claim ownership of the Dublin heritage?

Even if Dublin were divided in two, north and south I feel similar issues would arise and need addressing.

ShyMets

dobman88 wrote: »

I agree completely and that's why they are played in Croke Park.

On semi finals I think they should be played in a venue which geographically and has the capacity.

For example if Cork and Kerry were playing each other in a semi then Thurlas or Limerick makes more sense then Croke Park

[Deleted User]

dobman88 wrote: »

I'm not getting involved in all the other nonsense cos that's all it is. Complete nonsense and I've no time for it.

But to suggest the biggest games be moved from the national stadium is ludicrous. The only other venue capable of hosting a final is Landsdowne and if you held it there, people would still complain that it was in Dublin.

Semi finals and finals are played in Croke Park and changing that is a mental idea, even suggesting it sounds mental.

It's GAA HQ but it's also Dublin's home ground. Semi-finals and finals not involving Dublin can be played there. Unless you are so sure of Dublin's success that you think they will be contesting semi-finals and finals every year indefinitely? I thought this was just a cyclical occurrence because of a golden generation(s) of players?

Semi-finals and finals shouldn't be played in a team's home ground. That is a mental idea, even suggesting it sounds mental.

dobman88

ShyMets wrote: »

On semi finals I think they should be played in a venue which geographically and has the capacity.

For example if Cork and Kerry were playing each other in a semi then Thurlas or Limerick makes more sense then Croke Park

Fair enough. I'd disagree but I can see your point. The novelty of Kerry Mayo semi in Limerick was a great day out and the Gaelic Grounds was packed to capacity but you still had a small minority of Mayo fans complain that it was a Munster venue. So just shows you'll never keep everyone happy. Think it's better to keep big games, semis and finals in croke park. Everyone knows they're on there and there is no confusion.

[Deleted User]

bocaman wrote: »

Say we spilt Dublin in four along the current local council lines where do the four Dublins play their home games? If Parnell Park is used by the city what then about the other three area's? Will you end up constructing three new stadiums?

Who'll get to wear the traditional Dublin light blue?

Who'll claim ownership of the Dublin heritage?

Even if Dublin were divided in two, north and south I feel similar issues would arise and need addressing.

All surmountable issues. Three of the four Dublin subdivisions could share Croke Park for their matches for the foreseeable future. It may not be technically within their subdivisional "county" boundaries, but this isn't unusual in certain circumstances for sports teams e.g when a stadium is undergoing construction or renovation.

Not ideal, but much better than the status quo, which is killing the inter-county game as we all see.

Colour issue is also unimportant and could be resolved easily.

ShyMets

gaffer91 wrote: »

I already answered this question by you, several times. You don't see to have a great memory.

Voluntary amalgamations can be offered and counties can take them up if they see fit.

But Dublin should be split regardless, even if some GAA members in Dublin are opposed to it.

No memory is good. I wanted to see if you were banging the voluntary amalgamation drum.

Splitting Dublin, compulsory county amalgamations, pooled sponsorship and redistribution of funding.

This would create a far more level playing field.

But you seem resistant to that. Is it because you don't want your county amalgamated.

Of perhaps you're agenda is to waken Dublin so you're own county has a better chance of success

[Deleted User]

ShyMets wrote: »

On semi finals I think they should be played in a venue which geographically and has the capacity.

For example if Cork and Kerry were playing each other in a semi then Thurlas or Limerick makes more sense then Croke Park

Fair enough about the semi-finals but also the final should be played outside of Croke Park when Dublin are playing. And the semi-final if Dublin are playing.

dobman88

gaffer91 wrote: »

It's GAA HQ but it's also Dublin's home ground. Semi-finals and finals not involving Dublin can be played there. Unless you are so sure of Dublin's success that you think they will be contesting semi-finals and finals every year indefinitely? I thought this was just a cyclical occurrence because of a golden generation(s) of players?

Semi-finals and finals shouldn't be played in a team's home ground. That is a mental idea, even suggesting it sounds mental.

:pac: so much wrong in this post and stuff I never mentioned it doesn't warrant a reply so I'll bow out.

Just to point out though, Parnell Park is dublins home ground. Croke Park is a neutral venue and I hope big games like semi finals and finals are never moved regardless of whether Dublin are competing or not.