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Home heating automation

[Deleted User]

Just starting to look into this now though probably wont be purchasing for a while unless a bargain pops up.

I know there are a number of options out there for this but many like the Nest for example appear to be mostly based around running automatically depending on temp etc or learning your usage.

What I want to know is which one is best to use like a traditional timer? I'd want to set a schedule for heating and water to come on and off and also boost it if I felt like it. Learning my usage or using the thermostat to turn on/off the heating is not something I would really use.

I do want to be able to boost the heat and water remotely so the place is warm before arriving home and have a nice interface for setting timers using an app as we change around our water and heating timing quite often and its a pain having to do this using the poor user interfaces and controls on a traditional heating timer.

I'm assuming they can all be used in this way but I wonder if any device in particular is more geared towards this type of usage?

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raytaxi

Yeah its the only way I have is the ember stat at the moment, how would i go about mechanical stat to cylinder. Would i need to get a wire to drayton face plate ?

baldshin

deezell wrote: »

Have you wall thermostats in addition to the Grasslin? How many? Did the installer remove the Grasslin?. It was the timer unit, I'd assumed you had no wall stats. If you have more than one stat, it sounds like you have zoned heating, with Zone valves. If it works properly with these stats turned down, then there's some other source of switched power being sent to fire the boiler, just leave them down and see does the system work as it should.

2 wall thermostats. Just turned both down and nest seems to function as expected. Will hold off on the celebrations and see if the heat randomly kicks in or stays on of its own accord!

grogi

raytaxi wrote: »

Yeah its the only way I have is the ember stat at the moment, how would i go about mechanical stat to cylinder. Would i need to get a wire to drayton face plate ?

Assuming you have S-Plan connectivity, in the junction box you probably have a jumper from 6 to 8, which would need to be disconnected and two core wire attached that woould terminate at the stat.

raytaxi

I have 3 zone valves does that equal s-plan. Think i may have to go down sonoff for control as cylinder is fully insulated and just have pods for sensors. Think junction box is in garage and hot press upstairs and don't think i could get wire from one to other.

deezell

baldshin wrote: »

2 wall thermostats. Just turned both down and nest seems to function as expected. Will hold off on the celebrations and see if the heat randomly kicks in or stays on of its own accord!

I'm intrigued. The grasslin was just a single CH and HW controller? Yet you had two stats, so two zones. Are these pumped zones, or using zone valves? Perhaps the installer made other wiring changes, combined them into one. I'm surprised he even went ahead with a single zone replacement for what is obviously a single timer two CH zone installation, but with some odd wiring arrangements. If it works, then happy days, I'd no idea it was a two zone system, but it might explain some of the odd results.

deezell

raytaxi wrote: »

I have 3 zone valves does that equal s-plan. Think i may have to go down sonoff for control as cylinder is fully insulated and just have pods for sensors. Think junction box is in garage and hot press upstairs and don't think i could get wire from one to other.

Sonoff will just give you remote readings and a relay, but it will still have to lbe ocated next the cylinder to connect the probe into the cylinder port, so then you will still need a pair of wires from the Sonoff relay to bring back to the Ember wiring junction.
S plan is just a 2 port valve for each zone, 2, 3 or more. Each valve is triggered by it's zone controller voltage, and the valve in turn has a relay, whose output is used to fire the boiler, and all valve outputs can be cross connected and combined, so the boiler fires for one or more active valves.
I haven't come across a wireless high temperature sensor which can trigger a remote relay, but there's bound to be something out there

antomack

Looking for a solution to my current setup to allow smart control of my heating system. Had been considering it for a while but with my wireless thermostat receiver gone kaput I'm looking in earnest now.

With the plumber I used to use now retired I'm doing my own research first so can ensure I get what I want.

Current setup
Oil boiler
Hot water cylinder
Waterford Stanley Erin with back boiler
Two heating zones, downstairs and upstairs

Current Components
Horstmann ChannelPlus H37XL
Systemlex with Systemzone
2 x Heatmiser Slimline Wireless thermostats with RC1-W wireless receiver

Current Usage
Horstmann always on for heating zones and timed for hot water
Wireless thermostats are programmed with 3 on/off timings to suit morning, early evening and late evening. Manually set desired temperature if require heat outside those three timings.

Hoped for configuration
Control heating zones with programmable wireless thermostats and have similar timer setup for water.
Open to replacing the Horstmann controller as it's backup battery seems to be dead/dying, often have to configure on/off times after power cut.
Also to replacing the Heatmiser stats.
Ability to control from app in and away from home
No monthly fees

From the basic looking I've done so far I see mention of EPH Ember, Tado, Drayton Wiser and see that Heatmiser, the manufacturer of my current stats have a smart system too.

If further detail is required let me know.

baldshin

deezell wrote: »

I'm intrigued. The grasslin was just a single CH and HW controller? Yet you had two stats, so two zones. Are these pumped zones, or using zone valves? Perhaps the installer made other wiring changes, combined them into one. I'm surprised he even went ahead with a single zone replacement for what is obviously a single timer two CH zone installation, but with some odd wiring arrangements. If it works, then happy days, I'd no idea it was a two zone system, but it might explain some of the odd results.

To be quite honest, I'm unsure if they're pumped or valved zones. Scheduled heating came on this morning, but didn't circulate the heat around the house, having left the old wired dials turned all the way down. So it seems they have overriding control over the nest. I'm assuming if they can be traced back to the boiler and removed, this may be a solution? Definitely something I'd need an electrician for, the wiring itself is like a nest!

deezell

baldshin wrote: »

To be quite honest, I'm unsure if they're pumped or valved zones. Scheduled heating came on this morning, but didn't circulate the heat around the house, having left the old wired dials turned all the way down. So it seems they have overriding control over the nest. I'm assuming if they can be traced back to the boiler and removed, this may be a solution? Definitely something I'd need an electrician for, the wiring itself is like a nest!

Has the Geasslin timer been removed? It would make sense that the old stats need to turned up to provide continuity to the circulation pump (pumps?) whose power is provided by the nest., but this doesn't explain how it was still circulating after the scheduled nest heating event ended. It's possible those stats supply zone valves, and they may well have a relay connection directly back to the boiler to fire it, independent of your original grasslin timer. In this case though the heating should cease when the timed interval ends, regardless of it comes from the nest or the Grasslin. If the Grasslin is still connected , just set it to off, or unhook it and cover the pins with tape for the moment. If it has already been removed, then it sounds like you have some kind of loop in your wiring, whereby a timed event is throwing a relay in a valve which is going to the boiler but also back to the timed output, effectively holding the relay open. If your grasslin was operating in gravity mode, this should not create a loop. IF there are zone valves wired to fire the boiler in addition to the direct connection from the HW relay on the Nest, then a loop will occur. But then you don't need the gravity wiring mod on the Nest.
I suggest you just remove the link between pins 3 and 4 on the Nest on my diagram, which will revert it to standard two zone timer, and turn the old stats up full. Try and discover if your zones are supplied by Zone valves which have their own relays to fire the boiler. Its even possible you have a zone valve for HW, as you have 2 heating zones.
You do seem to have an odd setup, but it will need to be traced to understand the logic behind the wiring. Is it possible you also have a wiring box with relays inside? If your CH zones are pumped by individual pumps rather than the flow directed by Zone valves, it's possible, necessary even, that you have such a box, often know as a Lex box, to provide relay firing of the boiler for any wall stat or HW timed event. It's a pity you didn't mention the two wall stats back in October, this would have raised some alarms, as you have a compromise system with split from the single timer to two stat zones.

foxatron

Folks,

I currently have a climote installed with 3 zones upstairs downstairs and hot water on gas boiler. I was looking to get a system where I could control individual rooms. Has anyone changed from a climote to a system like this. I saw tado wired stater sets on sale but not sure if they'd suit. Any advice appreciated.

grogi

foxatron wrote: »

Folks,

I currently have a climote installed with 3 zones upstairs downstairs and hot water on gas boiler. I was looking to get a system where I could control individual rooms. Has anyone changed from a climote to a system like this. I saw tado wired stater sets on sale but not sure if they'd suit. Any advice appreciated.

I have Tado and the more I add to it, the happier I am about it... I am not sure however how to attack the multiple heating zones with it. If you want to go through smart TRV on each rad, you could probably reduce your heating to one zone by bridging both zones control wire.

Alternatively you can get Drayton Wiser - their hub has three channels - two heating zones and hot water (https://www.amazon.co.uk/Drayton-Wiser-Thermostat-Heating-Control/dp/B075GNJ7ZN). Then buy the additional TRV - the best deal is to keep buying the starter packs with them: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Drayton-Wiser-Multi-Zone-Thermostat-Radiator/dp/B075GRPZQ1

eddiem74

I have the following set-up and was wondering what Tado gear I should go after.

Boiler: Vokera Mynute 28e
Zones: 3 : upstairs, downstairs, & water
Timer/Clock: next to boiler a timer that lets me schedule 3 times per zone, plus manual boost.
Thermostats: Nothing on any wall
Radiators: 5 downstairs, 7 upstairs with vertical thermostatic values (>15years old)

deezell

eddiem74 wrote: »

I have the following set-up and was wondering what Tado gear I should go after.

Boiler: Vokera Mynute 28e
Zones: 3 : upstairs, downstairs, & water
Timer/Clock: next to boiler a timer that lets me schedule 3 times per zone, plus manual boost.
Thermostats: Nothing on any wall
Radiators: 5 downstairs, 7 upstairs with vertical thermostatic values (>15years old)

Tado is still limited to one wireless receiver, so to control the two CH zones, one would have to be wired back to the zone valve for it's floor. If the zone valves are somewhere downstairs, check and see how easy it would be to run a light twin wire mains cable from a living room or hallway wall to the valves. It might be easier from upstairs, from the landing wall, via the hot press across the attic and down. An alternative is to fit the entire upstairs with TRVs, locating the wired stat as a relay for the upstairs motorised valve next to the valve, and having as many zones as their are rads upstairs, say 6 leaving a bathroom or towel rail rad open. Downstairs would use the wireless stat and the extension kit (receiver) would control the downstairs CH and HW valves. All assuming your system is zoned with a 3 independent zone timer (make and model?).
Your system is ideal for the guy installation of the Drayton Wiser Kit 3, 3 zone controller. 2 wireless stats and HW control to a single receiver which just drops in in place of your current timer.

legend99

Right. Might park tado for today. I just popped the Sonoff on the cylinder - well in the cylinder actually as there is a sleeve probe opening for it. Anyone have experience in what temperatures to set the Sonoff for calling for heat for the cylinder? I know there is a serious legionnaires risk etc so wondering what might be best? P.S too, does anyone have any experience of using thermal paste/grease for a cylinder probe as I am conscious that I want to ensure getting as accurate a temperature as possible from the sleeve?

As an aside as the Sonoff doesn't record temps I manually looked at it as someone had a shower here. Extraordinary fall in temp - I never realised the cylinder reacted like that. The temp was at 62 when the shower came on. The only way to put it is that it then plummeted - you can see it counting down the temperature almost like a clock. Dropping degree by degree within second for each change. It bottomed out at 22 I think! Obviously it would come back up as the water mixes I guess - but already fascinating being able to see it in real time. I might monitor it properly some day and write down temp at 30 sec intervals and report it back - people might be interested.

deezell

Total Nerd stuff, excellent. We should have a rating for posters. I'd award that 3 Anoraks.

legend99

deezell wrote: »

Total Nerd stuff, excellent. We should have a rating for posters. I'd award that 3 Anoraks.

Reporting 44 now! I was also thinking I'll need to take 2 approaches. One report with the Sonoff calling for heat. And one when not calling for heat to just see what the water mixing and settling does in terms of what temp it stabilise at.

Hopefully someone does can report back what timing schedules/temp schedules they are using on it. Don't want to make a balls of it and make it worse!

P.S. And I very much appreciate your willingness to award 3 anoraks - what a day to be alive!!

eddiem74

deezell wrote: »

Tado is still limited to one wireless receiver, so to control the two CH zones, one would have to be wired back to the zone valve for it's floor. If the zone valves are somewhere downstairs, check and see how easy it would be to run a light twin wire mains cable from a living room or hallway wall to the valves. It might be easier from upstairs, from the landing wall, via the hot press across the attic and down. An alternative is to fit the entire upstairs with TRVs, locating the wired stat as a relay for the upstairs motorised valve next to the valve, and having as many zones as their are rads upstairs, say 6 leaving a bathroom or towel rail rad open. Downstairs would use the wireless stat and the extension kit (receiver) would control the downstairs CH and HW valves. All assuming your system is zoned with a 3 independent zone timer (make and model?).
Your system is ideal for the guy installation of the Drayton Wiser Kit 3, 3 zone controller. 2 wireless stats and HW control to a single receiver which just drops in in place of your current timer.

Here is the timer:

I am not tied to Tado, so completely open to advice. I would like ease of use, google integration, etc. and as I am working from home and while the rest of the house is out liked the idea of only heating rooms that i needed to heat.

grogi

deezell wrote: »

Tado is still limited to one wireless receiver, so to control the two CH zones, one would have to be wired back to the zone valve for it's floor. If the zone valves are somewhere downstairs, check and see how easy it would be to run a light twin wire mains cable from a living room or hallway wall to the valves. It might be easier from upstairs, from the landing wall, via the hot press across the attic and down. An alternative is to fit the entire upstairs with TRVs, locating the wired stat as a relay for the upstairs motorised valve next to the valve, and having as many zones as their are rads upstairs, say 6 leaving a bathroom or towel rail rad open. Downstairs would use the wireless stat and the extension kit (receiver) would control the downstairs CH and HW valves. All assuming your system is zoned with a 3 independent zone timer (make and model?).
Your system is ideal for the guy installation of the Drayton Wiser Kit 3, 3 zone controller. 2 wireless stats and HW control to a single receiver which just drops in in place of your current timer.

Alternatively one can reduce three zone programmer to two zone programmer by bridging the two control wires for the heating zones. That way one receiver (in Tado terms Extention) can open both valves, with the actual zoning hapenning at the TRV level.

Drayton does fit easier, as its hub can have three channels.

baldshin

deezell wrote: »

Has the Geasslin timer been removed? It would make sense that the old stats need to turned up to provide continuity to the circulation pump (pumps?) whose power is provided by the nest., but this doesn't explain how it was still circulating after the scheduled nest heating event ended. It's possible those stats supply zone valves, and they may well have a relay connection directly back to the boiler to fire it, independent of your original grasslin timer. In this case though the heating should cease when the timed interval ends, regardless of it comes from the nest or the Grasslin. If the Grasslin is still connected , just set it to off, or unhook it and cover the pins with tape for the moment. If it has already been removed, then it sounds like you have some kind of loop in your wiring, whereby a timed event is throwing a relay in a valve which is going to the boiler but also back to the timed output, effectively holding the relay open. If your grasslin was operating in gravity mode, this should not create a loop. IF there are zone valves wired to fire the boiler in addition to the direct connection from the HW relay on the Nest, then a loop will occur. But then you don't need the gravity wiring mod on the Nest.
I suggest you just remove the link between pins 3 and 4 on the Nest on my diagram, which will revert it to standard two zone timer, and turn the old stats up full. Try and discover if your zones are supplied by Zone valves which have their own relays to fire the boiler. Its even possible you have a zone valve for HW, as you have 2 heating zones.
You do seem to have an odd setup, but it will need to be traced to understand the logic behind the wiring. Is it possible you also have a wiring box with relays inside? If your CH zones are pumped by individual pumps rather than the flow directed by Zone valves, it's possible, necessary even, that you have such a box, often know as a Lex box, to provide relay firing of the boiler for any wall stat or HW timed event. It's a pity you didn't mention the two wall stats back in October, this would have raised some alarms, as you have a compromise system with split from the single timer to two stat zones.

Yeah the Grasslin was replaced with the Nest. From your description it does sound like there's a timed loop from the old wall stats, will try removing the link from 3 to 4. It's become a right headache! It's a Celtic Tiger era house, so I shouldn't be surprised of things set up oddly, already had issues wiring in one of our two nest protects, after discovering loads of oddness in the upstairs wiring.

eddiem74

eddiem74 wrote: »

I have the following set-up and was wondering what Tado gear I should go after.

Boiler: Vokera Mynute 28e
Zones: 3 : upstairs, downstairs, & water
Timer/Clock: next to boiler a timer that lets me schedule 3 times per zone, plus manual boost.
Thermostats: Nothing on any wall
Radiators: 5 downstairs, 7 upstairs with vertical thermostatic values (>15years old)

If going with Drayton instead of Tado, I believe this is what I need, correct?

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Drayton-Heating-Radiator-Thermostat-Amazon/dp/B075GNJ7ZN

They don't seem to do deals on the radiator thermostats that I can see, only sell individual?

grogi

eddiem74 wrote: »

If going with Drayton instead of Tado, I believe this is what I need, correct?

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Drayton-Heating-Radiator-Thermostat-Amazon/dp/B075GNJ7ZN

They don't seem to do deals on the radiator thermostats that I can see, only sell individual?

Yes. Plus get as many trv as you need. They are pricy enough alone, buying them in starter pack makes sense, as you'd also get a wall thermostat effectively for free.

deezell

eddiem74 wrote: »

If going with Drayton instead of Tado, I believe this is what I need, correct?

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Drayton-Heating-Radiator-Thermostat-Amazon/dp/B075GNJ7ZN

They don't seem to do deals on the radiator thermostats that I can see, only sell individual?

Yep. Straight swap. Change the basplates, terminals 1, 3 and 5 of the Horstmann to terminals 1, 3 and 2 of the Drayton

south

deezell wrote: »

If you want to have a crack at the installer mode, page 14 below, work though the options and turn HW mode on, your app should recognise this and enable the HW timer. Alternatively, drop support a line and ask for HW on, two wired stats. You did pop the mode jumper into position 2, with the dot on the bottom?
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1KRGbtTNoust23GEX3lXtgx6akSbArrJx/view?usp=drivesdk

I think I may have gone wrong somewhere, the heating is working as it should but I noticed the other day that while the downstairs heating comes on as scheduled it also lights up the hot water valve and heats the water. It also doesn't show up in the app that the water is turned on. It's great having hot water most of the time but it's probably costing me more than it should.

deezell

south wrote: »

I think I may have gone wrong somewhere, the heating is working as it should but I noticed the other day that while the downstairs heating comes on as scheduled it also lights up the hot water valve and heats the water. It also doesn't show up in the app that the water is turned on. It's great having hot water most of the time but it's probably costing me more than it should.

Apologies first for that link I included with that last post. It seems to be the wrong installation manual. This is the link I intended, https://drive.google.com/file/d/1NokMAEyjxNyh5k5Kb7owcKdoN4260RJm/view?usp=drivesdk
On page 14 it shows the path to enable HW control on the ext kit from installer mode. On page 15 there is a further setting to chose 'Fully pumped' or 'Gravity' by selecting Ext kit relay mode R01 or R02. This shoud be R01. In gravity mode, the ext kit assumes the the CH terminal only operates the circulation pump, with the HW terminal going live to fire the boiler for either a CH or a HW timed event. In 'Fully pumped' mode each terminal only goes live for its respective timed event, CH or HW, and these lives then turn on the appropriate zone valves, whose built in relays calls the boiler.
You say your HW valve is also opening for a CH event. For a HW timed event without CH, I presume only the HW vavle opens. If both downstairs valve and HW valve open, then it indicates the output wires are crossed. If HW valve only opens this would indicate that the ext kit is in Gravity mode, with HW terminal going live for either a downstairs CH event or a HW event. You can request support to put the ext kit in "Fully Pumped', R01 relay mode, and then your HW valve should open only for HW timed events.
You can change it yourself by entering installer mode on the downstairs stat. 3 sec press to bring up the two link symbol, release, 3 second press to bring up the installer symbol, release, 3 second press to start this mode. You can step through the different settings without changing them, reading off each setting as you go, TS > HC01 > HW✅ > Ek✅ > R01 ( if this is R02, use arrow keys to change to R01). Another press to SAVE, then a short time to upload and back to the standard display.

south

deezell wrote: »

Apologies first for that link I included with that last post. It seems to be the wrong installation manual. This is the link I intended, https://drive.google.com/file/d/1NokMAEyjxNyh5k5Kb7owcKdoN4260RJm/view?usp=drivesdk
On page 14 it shows the path to enable HW control on the ext kit from installer mode. On page 15 there is a further setting to chose 'Fully pumped' or 'Gravity' by selecting Ext kit relay mode R01 or R02. This shoud be R01. In gravity mode, the ext kit assumes the the CH terminal only operates the circulation pump, with the HW terminal going live to fire the boiler for either a CH or a HW timed event. In 'Fully pumped' mode each terminal only goes live for its respective timed event, CH or HW, and these lives then turn on the appropriate zone valves, whose built in relays calls the boiler.
You say your HW valve is also opening for a CH event. For a HW timed event without CH, I presume only the HW vavle opens. If both downstairs valve and HW valve open, then it indicates the output wires are crossed. If HW valve only opens this would indicate that the ext kit is in Gravity mode, with HW terminal going live for either a downstairs CH event or a HW event. You can request support to put the ext kit in "Fully Pumped', R01 relay mode, and then your HW valve should open only for HW timed events.
You can change it yourself by entering installer mode on the downstairs stat. 3 sec press to bring up the two link symbol, release, 3 second press to bring up the installer symbol, release, 3 second press to start this mode. You can step through the different settings without changing them, reading off each setting as you go, TS > HC01 > HW✅ > Ek✅ > R01 ( if this is R02, use arrow keys to change to R01). Another press to SAVE, then a short time to upload and back to the standard display.

Thanks Deezell, this looks to have sorted the problem out.

deezell

south wrote: »

Thanks Deezell, this looks to have sorted the problem out.

Happy days.

Brusna

The Drayton Wiser smart TRV’s are £36 on Amazon at the moment.

Gregor Samsa

south wrote: »

Thanks Deezell, this looks to have sorted the problem out.

I just want to pause for a moment and say that, speaking as a passive observer in all of this, I think deezell is the most helpful person I've ever come across on Boards.

fran426ft

legend99 wrote: »

Reporting 44 now! I was also thinking I'll need to take 2 approaches. One report with the Sonoff calling for heat. And one when not calling for heat to just see what the water mixing and settling does in terms of what temp it stabilise at.

Hopefully someone does can report back what timing schedules/temp schedules they are using on it. Don't want to make a balls of it and make it worse!

P.S. And I very much appreciate your willingness to award 3 anoraks - what a day to be alive!!

I recently added temperature sensors to my HW Cylinder using a Sonoff TH-16 hacked with Tasmota. With Tasmota you can hang multiple DS18B20 sensor off the one GPIO making it easy to add multiple. I've two at the moment, one towards the top and on in the middle, a bit above the bottom of the HW heating coil. I will probably add a 3rd as I'm interested to get the temperature further towards the bottom of the tank where the solar hot water coil is. I've it reporting back to home assistant via MQTT so I can graph them up but my HW isn't zoned so when the boiler is on it always heats the water. I may get it zoned in future but I don't worry about the cylinder temperature right now. During the summer I plan to automate it so if in the morning the HW isn't hot enough from the solar panels the day before the boiler will turn on and heat the HW only enough for a shower and not the whole house. Then I may also add some checks so if the tank hasn't got to 60-65deg at any stage over a set period that it take it up to a hotter temperature to prevent legionnaires.

Like you see, the temperature towards the bottom of the heating coil drops significantly when someone has a shower.

I also replaced my old boiler controller with a sonoff running Tasmota and my thermostats with sonoffs to control zone valves for upstairs and downstairs. I've some logic running on the tasmota devices but all are integrated with homeassistant and google home so I can set up automations, monitor and control remotely etc.

It's been fun getting into the DIY home automation but it is definitely not for everyone.

planck26

deezell wrote: »

...

4. I can think of three options.
a. If you get the ext kit, but continue to use the Danfoss for HW timing, you can use the ext kit HW live signal to operate a mains relay for your electric rad, which I assume has its own built in stat.
b. If you want independent control, just add an additional tafo stat to the garden room, use it's output to switch a mains relay to turn on the electric rad.
c. Alternatively, you could link a tado zone via smart software such as IFTTT to operate a smart mains switch/socket, so when say " Kitchen Zone" is on, IFTTT will detect and operate Garden room mains relay.

Thanks again for this advice deezell. I took the plunge and got the first four TRVs, stat and wireless receiver installed in a couple of hours yesterday. (Have to say the installation process was a revelation - very impressive and reassuring for the non-expert...).

Coming back to the question of how to extend control to an electric rad in the garden room, your option B appeals to me most. Am I right in thinking that I'll need Tado's wired stat (not wireless) for this, and that I'll wire it to a mains relay that will go between the wall switch and the rad (or can it replace the wall switch)? Can you point me at an example of a suitable mains relay (it's a 2kW rad)? Greatly appreciate your help, many thanks.