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Random EV thoughts.....

Old diesel

The main motors forum has the motors chat thread for the little things one would like to say but might not justify a thread.

Thought it might be an idea for here re hybrids and EV stuff.....

To kick off - i wonder if a new measurement for EVs might be assuming a start trip at 100 percent......

A how much range do you get with a 15 minute stop.

With a 350 kw charging a Porsche Tayman might do very well with getting on for 400 miles...

A Leaf 62 not so good.

Obviously where a car can do more then 50 kw charging we would need both a 50 kw and a whatever the cars top rate is figure*.

*IF chargers are available

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Water John

Sales of fully EV have passed 0.5m in 10 months of the year in Europe;
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/dec/03/more-than-500000-full-electric-cars-sold-in-europe-in-10-months

unkel

Bidirectional AC is extremely useful! You then just need a smart charge point in the house and you basically have a free 85kWh (or whatever the capacity of the battery in your car is) power wall.

Store excess solar PV in your car (or charge your car up for free at work, at a Tesla supercharger, at a free supermarket charger, etc.) and power your home at night for free (or during power cuts)

And another thing the Hyundai press release casually mentions: a 73kWh Ioniq. With some careful driving you could get close to 1000km out of that on a charge :eek:

the_amazing_raisin

graememk wrote: »

The current versions of V2G all the hardware for taking DC from the batteries (inverter etc etc) is fixed in the house,

so it can just act like a standard grid tied storage inverter and can monitor house usage and balance as necessary

Besides, you dont want to be carrying all that extra weight in the car!

Well it depends on the car, for example if you use AC motors then you'll already have an inverter in the car. It's possible you could have this pull double duty by outputting power when stationary

graememk

The current versions of V2G all the hardware for taking DC from the batteries (inverter etc etc) is fixed in the house,

so it can just act like a standard grid tied storage inverter and can monitor house usage and balance as necessary

Besides, you dont want to be carrying all that extra weight in the car!

the_amazing_raisin

Water John wrote: »

Just shooting the breeze on it but say one had a 73kwh and charged it full with PV solar by day, would it cope easily with running a house in the evening?

Well with all these things it depends on what you're running. Typical Irish home with oil or gas heating will probably just have some cooking, laundry appliances, TV and lights. As long as they don't get run together then the car could potentially supply them all and still have plenty of battery left over

I'm also assuming here that the car can output something like 7kW to the house on single phase, in other words it can discharge at the same speed it charges

If you're running a heat pump or electric shower then you'd probably go over the 7kW and need to top up from the grid. Your house would need some sort of load management to do this

73kWh would certainly be plenty for a house, consider most home solar batteries would be a fraction of that size.

You could be even lazier and skip the PV, find a local charger that's free and charge the car to full there, drive it home and enjoy some free electricity

Water John

Just shooting the breeze on it but say one had a 73kwh and charged it full with PV solar by day, would it cope easily with running a house in the evening?

ELM327

pdpmur wrote: »

... but potentially very useful for vehicle-to-house - so during hours of peak rate electricity costs the battery could supply the house, and then re-charge from the grid during off-peak hours. The car battery doubles-up as temporary "fixed" battery storage for the house at no extra cost.

V2H is very useful! V2G is useless.

V2H would have to be done by AC though. No house needs 400v DC

the_amazing_raisin

pdpmur wrote: »

... but potentially very useful for vehicle-to-house - so during hours of peak rate electricity costs the battery could supply the house, and then re-charge from the grid during off-peak hours. The car battery doubles-up as temporary "fixed" battery storage for the house at no extra cost.

If anything it's better than v2g because v2g requires an expensive DC charger with an inverter to convert the dc voltage to ac.

In this setup the car handles that, so the charger just needs to allow the car to discharge to the house.

Also if it can output 11kW then it'll be able to cover a lot of a houses power needs

pdpmur

ELM327 wrote: »

I think this is as useful as V2G tech (ie not at all)

... but potentially very useful for vehicle-to-house - so during hours of peak rate electricity costs the battery could supply the house, and then re-charge from the grid during off-peak hours. The car battery doubles-up as temporary "fixed" battery storage for the house at no extra cost.

ELM327

I think this is as useful as V2G tech (ie not at all)

the_amazing_raisin

innrain wrote: »

https://www.electrive.com/2020/12/02/hyundai-presents-e-gmp-electric-car-platform/
Beside the marketing drama something else caught my eye
Vehicle-to-vehicle charging that sounds desirable. Interesting enough is a 800V platform

If it can do vehicle to vehicle at 11kW that's pretty cool. I wonder if it'll have the inlet/outlet plugs that some other cars have or will it be through the same port.

If the former it could allow you to daisy chain 2 cars to a single chargepoint, albeit at 50% charging speed. Useful for people who get a second EV but not a second charger

I like how they said it can also support 220V sockets (and presumably 230V). Hopefully it'll be able to get up to a decent wattage, 2-3kW @ 230V should be doable if the system can output 11kW 3 phase

innrain

https://www.electrive.com/2020/12/02/hyundai-presents-e-gmp-electric-car-platform/
Beside the marketing drama something else caught my eye
Vehicle-to-vehicle charging that sounds desirable. Interesting enough is a 800V platform

DrPhilG

Black_Knight wrote: »

With that font, I'll never be able to take Phil's posts seriously from now on.

You mean you did before? What were you thinking?

the_amazing_raisin

Black_Knight wrote: »

With that font, I'll never be able to take Phil's posts seriously from now on.

I didn't notice it until now but now I can't stop laughing

Black_Knight

With that font, I'll never be able to take Phil's posts seriously from now on.

DrPhilG

graememk wrote: »

If you take out the ones at lifford, one near omagh (mellon country inn) and the one just outside enniskillen a big hole appears... (As they are chademo only (and 22kw ac) )

Precisely. CCS is poor up here.

Plus the one in Letterkenny only got the CCS upgrade about 18 months ago. And Derry has been on the blink for months, maxes out at 34kw.

graememk

ELM327 wrote: »

Not great but hardly brutal!

If you take out the ones at lifford, one near omagh (mellon country inn) and the one just outside enniskillen a big hole appears... (As they are chademo only (and 22kw ac) )

MJohnston

Black_Knight wrote: »

Is that shareable on drive? Be a nice one for the new chargers sticky thread.

I've shared it as a Google Doc here:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Rbe1jMIwIP8K7WrsU5DP6l9ko0h97nyQ78IFW08TmJg/edit?usp=sharing

If anyone wants to adjust something, it's open for commenting, so let me know and I can change it. Also people can create a copy and do their own version if they want.

innrain wrote: »

Very nice way of ranking. Question about the 0.25 on the standards. How you come up with it? Is it any algorithm behind it?
Also in my thinking the multi-charger sites should have a higher weighting constant.
I will think of it more but my half baked idea is that if you have 1/3 chance to find the charger occupied and add another charger overnight the probability does not halves to 1/6 but drops as 1/3 x 1/3 = 1/9. So n chargers would have 1/(3^n).

The 0.25 was a little bit arbitrary and fairly simplified — essentially it's really a weight of how "useful" a 22kW charger might be compared to a rapid. Because of the variety of EVs out there, there's no good single answer to that (and you could definitely do different variations of this chart that adjust for different cars).

But to explain: most fast chargers charge at 50kW, most cars can use 22kW chargers at about 11kW. So the 22kW chargers have approximately 0.25 the utility to an average EV compared to a fast charger.

I could probably get more intricate and weight the high power 150kW chargers at a higher than 1.0 weight or something. Might do that in future.

cannco253

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/nov/23/regional-disparities-in-electric-car-charging-points-revealed

Is there anything similar here that would show the number of chargers per X amount of people?

"The RAC has reported a doubling this year in the number of instances where drivers of electric vehicles have needed assistance after running out of charge, because charge points have been out of service, their home chargers have failed to charge overnight, or drivers have run out of charge before reaching a charge point." Has AA Ireland any stats on this or any generic breakdown service providers?

I didn't realise the number of different providers in the UK (14)?

the_amazing_raisin

I really like that chart, one of the best ways I think to measure the charging network is how easy it makes it to get to different places. 20 fast chargers aren't much use if they're all on the same stretch of motorway

Kramer

ELM327 wrote: »

That specific moneygall location is supply limited to about 40kW peak across the charger. EG if AC and DC are in use both get about 20.

They should upgrade the supply to it. Nenagh & Roscrea will be left as 50kW singles, leaving Moneygall as the only viable hub option between Portlaoise & Limerick. It's actually a decent location for a hub.

It's visible from the motorway, has plenty of room, truck & coach parking, good food outlets, well known (named after Paddy "Barrack" O'Bama!) & far enough from Portlaoise or Dublin for people doing weekend trips to Kerry.

There's plenty of HV distribution nearby too I would imagine.

ECars though so probably a non runner.

ELM327

Kramer wrote: »

This.

Take the M7 towards Limerick, south of Portlaoise. Two chargers, Roscrea & Nenagh, are several kilometres off the motorway. Detouring to Roscrea would take close to 10 minutes & if it was ICE'd, or in use, you'd waste both time & range driving to it.
The exact same in Nenagh.

So if the only service area charger (Moneygall) was occupied, you'd be off driving around like a fool.

A hub, even two units, at the Moneygall location would be better than the three on that stretch now, as they are all single units, single point of failure.

Removing moneygall you are absolutely correct.

That specific moneygall location is supply limited to about 40kW peak across the charger. EG if AC and DC are in use both get about 20.

Kramer

innrain wrote: »

Also in my thinking the multi-charger sites should have a higher weighting constant.

This.

Take the M7 towards Limerick, south of Portlaoise. Two chargers, Roscrea & Nenagh, are several kilometres off the motorway. Detouring to Roscrea would take close to 10 minutes & if it was ICE'd, or in use, you'd waste both time & range driving to it.
The exact same in Nenagh.

So if the only service area charger (Moneygall) was occupied, you'd be off driving around like a fool.

A hub, even two units, at the Moneygall location would be better than the three on that stretch now, as they are all single units, single point of failure.

innrain

Cyrus wrote: »

just as an FYI when went parknasilla in the summer i was able to use a granny charger whenever i wanted, there were outdoor plugs at the woodland villas.

Cheers. I knew about the 3pin. I saw your post on plugshare. When planning a trip I consider the 3pin "only if everything else fails". We actually overlapped there few days. social media

Going back to Professor Moriarty question Dublin-Cork-Dublin in one day is easy. But the number of EVs is increasing much faster than the chargers. Hopefully by the time we go back to our usual routines ecars will have the hubs up and running.

innrain

[QUOTE=MJohnston;115390667

Score is:

((Rapids * 1.0) + (22kW * 0.25) / Distance) * 100

[/QUOTE]

Very nice way of ranking. Question about the 0.25 on the standards. How you come up with it? Is it any algorithm behind it?
Also in my thinking the multi-charger sites should have a higher weighting constant.
I will think of it more but my half baked idea is that if you have 1/3 chance to find the charger occupied and add another charger overnight the probability does not halves to 1/6 but drops as 1/3 x 1/3 = 1/9. So n chargers would have 1/(3^n).

ELM327

slave1 wrote: »

Ah, NorthWest is brutal

Not great but hardly brutal!

Black_Knight

MJohnston wrote: »
Here's my very rough summary of the charging capabilities of the major intercity routes on the island of Ireland:

I'm including any non-Tesla charger that's online on the main route, or about 1 or 2km offline. Tried not to include any that are in train stations or wherever there wouldn't be easy access. Also only including one set of chargers per direction where there's an Applegreen or Ionity set on each side of a motorway.

Also not including what's available in the cities themselves.

Score is:
((Rapids * 1.0) + (22kW * 0.25) / Distance) * 100

Is that shareable on drive? Be a nice one for the new chargers sticky thread.

Black_Knight

Cork access doesn't feel as bad as the table suggests. I guess when Limerick, Waterford and Killarney are all under 150km away it's not too pressing

slave1

ELM327 wrote: »

The coverage of the island is now pretty universal. The only issue is still SPOF. (1 charger per site).

Ah, NorthWest is brutal

ELM327

The coverage of the island is now pretty universal. The only issue is still SPOF. (1 charger per site).