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COVID-19: Vaccine/antidote and testing procedures Megathread [Mod Warning - Post #1]

Masala

Today being Paddy Day 2020... when do you think we will have a ‘flu jab’ / pill / syrup that we can take to make us immune/ les likely to catch this 19 virus?.

Mod: The purpose of this thread is baked into the title - COVID-19: Vaccine/antidote and testing procedures - it's not a platform to push an anti vaccination agenda. If posters wish to discuss the perceived cons of vaccinations, or push various theories regarding 'the agenda' (whatever that is supposed to mean), open a thread elsewhere on it.

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funnydoggy

dominatinMC wrote: »

Tbh, I wouldn't worry about that. Just convince (if that's even needed) a few cash-strapped "influencers" to take the vaccine and the distracted multitude will follow.

Very true :pac:

cgc5483

Beanybabog wrote: »

Why does the Pfizer vaccine need to be so cold? I’ve read numerous articles explaining the logistical challenges but not why it needs to be so cold. I read one that suggested the freezers can only be opened for a short amount of time... surely when you’re going to be injected the vaccine can’t be -80 (does it freeze?) so how do they manage to make
It warm enough but not ruin it?

One of the major reasons is the vaccine is a mRNA vaccine. RNA is notoriously unstable and tends to degrade unless stored at ultra low temperature. In contrast DNA and proteins are considerably more stable. The issue if the mRNA degrades is that the template to make the Spike protein (which is what the antibodies are produced against) may be incomplete and either no Spike is produced or an incomplete version and the immune response produced maybe less. The vaccine will be thawed prior to administration and would be stable in a fridge for a period but probably only for 24 hours or so.
The other issue is that freeze-thaw cycles will also effect it so maybe that's what you have heard in relation to the opening of the freezers.

stephenjmcd

cgc5483 wrote: »

One of the major reasons is the vaccine is a mRNA vaccine. RNA is notoriously unstable and tends to degrade unless stored at ultra low temperature. In contrast DNA and proteins are considerably more stable. The issue if the mRNA degrades is that the template to make the Spike protein (which is what the antibodies are produced against) may be incomplete and either no Spike is produced or an incomplete version and the immune response produced maybe less. The vaccine will be thawed prior to administration and would be stable in a fridge for a period but probably only for 24 hours or so.

Yup as per Pfizer if it gets taken out of cold storage it can go into a normal refrigeration unit or cool box at -8 for up to 5 days before use during the thawing process, after that if your keeping it at room temperature you've 24hrs to use it once its taken out of storage.

Quite a large logistical operation to put in place, will definitely need defence forces assistance

daydorunrun

Irish Stones wrote: »

Last night our TV said it's €20 per dose.

Yeah but that's a buy one get one free offer:)

mandrake04

Irish Stones wrote: »

No need to be sorry.

€20 is what I knew from our TV last night, but as stephenjmcd says, our media only give us Italian false and rubbish news.

Could well be a different price set for Europe compared to US, but you would think Eurozone would be similar. Maybe developing nations it might be set cheaper.

AZ could turn out to be a more manageable candidate, 2-8C fridges would use existing infrastructure and less risk of spoilage. Is the high performance worth of Pfizer worth the cost and risk compared to a 1/10 of the cost for something that is maybe 70% efficacy

tobefrank321

stephenjmcd wrote: »

Yes I've read it and like most articles you've posted isn't accurate, you've quite a habit of posting unsubstantiated claims from Italian media despite it being pointed out numerous times to be false. There was also a presentation to investors which I am currently trying to find which lays it out nicely but here's the quote.

"Once the packages are delivered, receivers can store them in ultra-low temperature freezers for up to 6 months, inside a refrigeration unit for up to 5 days, or they can refill the box with new dry ice for up to 15 days of storage." - Pfizer

Yes I think the -80 degrees requirement which of course is the one that makes the headlines, is only for long term storage. If we have an efficient distribution system in Ireland, 5 days in refrigeration might be enough, if delivered here in ultra low temperatures or else from factory to "patient" in 5 days or less.

Efficient distribution will be key. The army might be needed as you said before or someone with professional logistics experience. Will likely be a 24/7, 7 day a week operation. Taking the weekend off, etc won't be an option.

opinionated3

funnydoggy wrote: »

Even reddit Ireland (who've been absolutely 100% pro lockdown & other measures without fault, even downvoting/threadbanning anyone who wasn't) are even leaning towards not taking the vaccine.

The government and HSE need to create and share an info campaign now.

I hear you. But tbh those campaigns will only be listened to by those who WANT to hear them. For example, my sister in law is dating an absolute conspiracy theory nutjob. Anti America, anti vaccine, anti big business, anti bill gates etc...... Basically everyone is out to get us! She's been taking his word as gospel, shares all this garbage on Facebook but here's the thing ... Her friends are believing it too and commenting how much she's correct and that they won't be taking any vaccine either! That's what your up against in this world where social media is king and the truth gets lost somewhere along the way.

stephenjmcd

tobefrank321 wrote: »

Yes I think the -80 degrees requirement which of course is the one that makes the headlines, is only for long term storage. If we have an efficient distribution system in Ireland, 5 days in refrigeration might be enough, if delivered here in ultra low temperatures or else from factory to "patient" in 5 days or less.

Efficient distribution will be key. The army might be needed as you said before or someone with professional logistics experience. Will likely be a 24/7, 7 day a week operation. Taking the weekend off, etc won't be an option.

Yeah you'll need a well oiled supply chain here, does anyone in Dept of Health or HSE have experience in this is a big enough question, perhaps external planners will be required.

Now if we had say 1 or 2 storage units in the country that could handle -80 you'd get a little more time in terms of arrival into the country then into that storage and plan in advance what doses are needed where and when, take them out and into cool boxes or suitable refrigeration units closer to the vaccine centre.

100% going to need defence forces assistance when it comes to transport, much like what happened with PPE, they were waiting at the stand in Dublin Airport and the plane was unloaded straight away and transported to central storage under Garda escort. Absolutely wont be a Monday to Friday thing. I've read the UK plans are likely to be 8am to 8pm 7 days a week over a number of months for the rollout.

It'll certainly be interesting to see what the plan is when its made public. So far the line of well we're working on it, doesn't fill me with confidence when other countries have laid out what the plan is.

Thierry12

Irish Stones wrote: »

Last night our TV said it's €20 per dose.

Need to take into account Paddy tax ;-)

funnydoggy

daydorunrun wrote: »

Yeah but that's a buy one get one free offer:)

One for each arm

Hmmzis

The Russians also claiming >90% efficacy for their Ad5/Ad26 vaccine (Sputnik V):

https://sputnikvaccine.com/newsroom/pressreleases/the-first-interim-data-analysis-of-the-sputnik-v-vaccine-against-covid-19-phase-iii-clinical-trials-/

Just 20 events plus an undisclosed set of events outside the trial. Not much more info there.

440Hertz

tobefrank321 wrote: »

Yes I think the -80 degrees requirement which of course is the one that makes the headlines, is only for long term storage. If we have an efficient distribution system in Ireland, 5 days in refrigeration might be enough, if delivered here in ultra low temperatures or else from factory to "patient" in 5 days or less.

Efficient distribution will be key. The army might be needed as you said before or someone with professional logistics experience. Will likely be a 24/7, 7 day a week operation. Taking the weekend off, etc won't be an option.

This article might answer the question about our efficient delivery system: https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/health/hse-wont-release-any-new-flu-vaccine-jabs-as-600000-go-missing-39732344.html

Seems the HSE system lost 600,000 doses of the flu vaccine, or at least isn’t able to account for how they have been distributed.

They would want to really put serious effort into ensuring they’ve the right systems in place for this m.

Ireland has the advantage of being relatively small, so the cold chain would be relatively short, but you can’t have any messing around with bureaucracy going wrong like that!

ACitizenErased

Just RE: a certain poster's comment about it not being available until January 2021 - wrong.
As soon as EUA is granted, distribution starts within HOURS.

Beasty

Threads merged

stephenjmcd

UK briefing on now with Jonathan Van Tam along with Dr June Raine, chief executive of MHRA.

Good clear information here of the process of development, trials and approval.

Being shown live on the usual UK news stations.

Van Tam - "We're in a public health emergency but the standards are no lower despite overlapping phases".

Very clear and concise information showing the usual process and the covid process and how the phases overlap, production at risk (to the manufacturer) etc

stephenjmcd

On vaccine rollout in the UK with regards to priority.

Professor Wei Shen Lim, chair of the Joint Committee on Vaccination and Immunisation, said the current phase is a "phase where we prioritise the most vulnerable people in society – particularly the people who are most likely to die from COVID-19".

He added: "We are taking into account the important role of the NHS and social care as well."

He said the programme needs to be recognisable and understandable to everybody – and it needs to be deliverable.

Priority groups as they are defined (phase one):

Care home residents and people who work in care homes.
Older individuals from aged 65 and above.
Adults who have underlying health conditions.

440Hertz

Hmmzis wrote: »

The Russians also claiming >90% efficacy for their Ad5/Ad26 vaccine (Sputnik V):

https://sputnikvaccine.com/newsroom/pressreleases/the-first-interim-data-analysis-of-the-sputnik-v-vaccine-against-covid-19-phase-iii-clinical-trials-/

Just 20 events plus an undisclosed set of events outside the trial. Not much more info there.

Timing and proximity of result to a vaccine based on a very, very different technology just seems a tad too politically convenient for comfort.

I wish them the best of luck and they will definitely need effective vaccines, but I’m just highly sceptical about drugs or vaccines from a country with a history of cover ups and poor transparency.

I’ll be sticking with the EMA approved stuff.

funnydoggy

stephenjmcd wrote: »

Priority groups as they are defined (phase one):

Care home residents and people who work in care homes.
Older individuals from aged 65 and above.
Adults who have underlying health conditions.

The sting from COVID will be gone by the end of Phase One in the UK. Great to see!!

440Hertz

I’d assume the priority here will be the most vulnerable and healthcare workers who are those most exposed and then working its way into the rest of the population.

lbj666

440Hertz wrote: »

This article might answer the question about our efficient delivery system: https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/health/hse-wont-release-any-new-flu-vaccine-jabs-as-600000-go-missing-39732344.html

Seems the HSE system lost 600,000 doses of the flu vaccine, or at least isn’t able to account for how they have been distributed.

They would want to really put serious effort into ensuring they’ve the right systems in place for this m.

Ireland has the advantage of being relatively small, so the cold chain would be relatively short, but you can’t have any messing around with bureaucracy going wrong like that!

Story could be a blessing in disguise really, say if Oxford Astra Z ends up being a better option than Pfizers and all the cold storage craic is avoided. It shows that posting down to GPs and let them sort it out is no where near a robust enough approach.

Irish Stones

mandrake04 wrote: »

Is the high performance worth of Pfizer worth the cost and risk compared to a 1/10 of the cost for something that is maybe 70% efficacy

Let's wait and see what AZ has to tell us about their product. We might something more in a few days.

BrianD3

Van Tam has been excellent on sky news this morning. Very concise, has the confidence and authority to pause and look through his notes for information rather than waffling on like a politician or Tony Holohan.

Not sure if he would have been made aware of the journalists' questions beforehand.

Irish Stones

ACitizenErased wrote: »

Just RE: a certain poster's comment about it not being available until January 2021 - wrong.
As soon as EUA is granted, distribution starts within HOURS.

If that poster is me, then it's been pointed out by someone else this morning that it might depend on the country. Over here it's toward the end of January, as we've been told last night.

If that poster is someone else, they might have referred to an article from some Italian sources, which are notoriously wrong, it seems.
So you should be right both ways.

Russman

mandrake04 wrote: »

Could well be a different price set for Europe compared to US, but you would think Eurozone would be similar. Maybe developing nations it might be set cheaper.

AZ could turn out to be a more manageable candidate, 2-8C fridges would use existing infrastructure and less risk of spoilage. Is the high performance worth of Pfizer worth the cost and risk compared to a 1/10 of the cost for something that is maybe 70% efficacy

Given that funding for vaccines is essentially limitless at the moment, in my opinion yes the high performance of Pfizer is worth it (assuming its true). It might be different in more normal times, but I'd hate to think this could be one of those "penny wise pound foolish" moments.

lbj666

BrianD3 wrote: »

Van Tam has been excellent on sky news this morning. Very concise, has the confidence and authority to pause and look through his notes for information rather than waffling on like a politician or Tony Holohan.

Not sure if he would have been made aware of the journalists' questions beforehand.

ya its very good so far and explains quiet well how why its only taken 10 months or insted of years

is_that_so

An odd line of research but there's been plenty of that and it could be very cheap! It's a Phase 1 trial.

Other protective nasal sprays are in development, but the Stanford approach is unusually low-tech, relying on antibodies harvested from egg yolks of chickens immunized with spike, the surface protein of SARS-CoV-2.

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/11/can-nose-full-chicken-antibodies-ward-coronavirus-infections

stephenjmcd

BrianD3 wrote: »

Van Tam has been excellent on sky news this morning. Very concise, has the confidence and authority to pause and look through his notes for information rather than waffling on like a politician or Tony Holohan.

Not sure if he would have been made aware of the journalists' questions beforehand.

It really was an excellent briefing. Very clear and concise information given to the public. Would be fantastic if we had something similar

dominatinMC

stephenjmcd wrote: »

It really was an excellent briefing. Very clear and concise information given to the public. Would be fantastic if we had something similar

Any chance we can adopt an all-island approach and piggy-back on the roll out of the vaccination in the North?! I have little faith in the HSE :pac:

Hmmzis

Medicago's phase 1 results are up now:

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.11.04.20226282v1.full.pdf+html

It's a VLP type vaccine and needs an adjuvant. The ASO3 from GSK seems to be excellent with it, even the single dose got most people to convalescent plasma nAB levels and the booster got almost everyone to 10x the levels of convalescents. The protein dose is slightly smaller (3.75ug) than Novavax (5ug) and the VLPs are being grown in plants instead of cell cultures.

Adverse reactions are in line with other protein vaccines seen so far, not much more than your average flu shot.

ixoy

stephenjmcd wrote: »

It really was an excellent briefing. Very clear and concise information given to the public. Would be fantastic if we had something similar

Interesting. I really think they'll need a good information campaign. One of the most cited reasons I've seen for example is:

"There's never been a vaccine developed so quickly. Ergo, we can't really trust it".

It makes people feel it must be rushed because science, so far, never accomplished such a timeframe and saying, "Money thrown at it" won't fully work.
I think the answer was running phases in parallel and working off of previous trials but it would be great to get this sort of information out there and have answers to common claims.