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Exit Strategy

Loafing Oaf

I think this question deserves a thread of its own, apologies if the mods don't agree.

So assuming the country moves to Level 5/lockdown over the next week, at what point and in what manner should we move out of that stage?

Is Zero Covid a realistic target, and if not are the sort of numbers we reached in early summer good enough to start easing restrictions?

Do we do a piecemeal relaxation of restrictions like we did then, assuming there is no significant rise in cases, until everything is opened up? Or do some things (like pubs?) have to stay closed until we get a vaccine?

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speckle

relative offered maggots for dead tissue removal from a wound .Fascinating stuff. Tallagt Hospital.

end of the road

Deleted User wrote: »

That's your problem right there, friend Thankfully the response to their recent "Truth Matters" campaign was overwhelmingly negative and mocking. People have finally copped on. I suggest you do the same; RTE isn't fit for purpose

Good luck, anyway.

the response to their truth matters campaign has actually been overwhelmingly favourable from everything i have saw.
sure, the few usual types have gone on their instant rager but very few listen to them anyway.

hmmm

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

I believe potential strain on the health service is only a symptom of the fundamental problem. For me the 'real question' is once we have (hopefully) suppressed case numbers through lockdown, how we keep them at a low level, in which scenario issues like the number of ICU beds become moot. Yesterday's announcement gave no clear idea of how the government intends to achieve this, and gave me the impression the 'plan' is to open everything up and let the virus run rampant over Christmas, inevitably necessitating another lockdown early in the New Year.

There were reports in the media that we'd be returning to Level 3 at the conclusion of this. So outdoor dining etc only.

Loafing Oaf

fenris wrote: »

In fairness the whole "Exit Strategy" discussion is just PR spin to give an illusion of control, the phrase wasn't in the public domain until a couple of day ago, so it is more a political construct than a real public health concept.
The real question is why wasn't the time over the last few months used constructively to build up the health service capability and how is that going to be rectified?

I believe potential strain on the health service is only a symptom of the fundamental problem. For me the 'real question' is once we have (hopefully) suppressed case numbers through lockdown, how we keep them at a low level, in which scenario issues like the number of ICU beds become moot. Yesterday's announcement gave no clear idea of how the government intends to achieve this, and gave me the impression the 'plan' is to open everything up and let the virus run rampant over Christmas, inevitably necessitating another lockdown early in the New Year.

[Deleted User]

end of the road wrote: »

i will keep listening to rte and plenty of other reliable sources as i have always done

That's your problem right there, friend

Thankfully the response to their recent "Truth Matters" campaign was overwhelmingly negative and mocking. People have finally copped on. I suggest you do the same; RTE isn't fit for purpose

Good luck, anyway.

hmmm

Rodin wrote: »

You forgot about lysing necrotic tissue.
The point still stands though. They are used.

Not really (the point).

I'm assuming that medical trials have been carried out with these leeches, so we know that they are providing a benefit.

We don't just rely on "Dr xyz" on Twitter who is using Leeches and Fox urine to treat patients and has declared it to be effective.

fenris

In fairness the whole "Exit Strategy" discussion is just PR spin to give an illusion of control, the phrase wasn't in the public domain until a couple of day ago, so it is more a political construct than a real public health concept.
The real question is why wasn't the time over the last few months used constructively to build up the health service capability and how is that going to be rectified? Ciara Kelly was on the money earlier with her comments regarding lockdowns being used for a purpose rather than to simply push the numbers down from politically embarrassing levels, otherwise it is the same again every 2 months.

Rodin

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Only for improving blood flow in areas with poor blood circulation (ie peripheral small vascular disease). Limited use (with mountains of evidence/data behind it's use.)

You forgot about lysing necrotic tissue.
The point still stands though. They are used.

hmmm

Rodin wrote: »

We DO still use leeches...

I never knew that

[Deleted User]

Deleted User wrote: »

If you don't take the vaccine s and have no contraindications, you are the reason that lockdowns will go on longer than necessary.

Nah, that won't be the reason. There'll be a massive amount of non-consent for this one. Covid isn't a risk to most of the population, and vaccines require years of testing to confirm safety. The fact that many of the vaccine developers are trying to get indemnity from side effects should tell you all you need to know.

Hard pass from me. You can have mine to be doubly safe :pac: Good luck, anyway.

[Deleted User]

Rodin wrote: »

We DO still use leeches...

Only for improving blood flow in areas with poor blood circulation (ie peripheral small vascular disease). Limited use (with mountains of evidence/data behind it's use.)

Rodin

hmmm wrote: »

Anecdotes are not evidence. We'd still be using leeches if that was the case.

We trial things, compare the drugs versus the placebo, and get definitive results. That's been done with HCQ in several studies.

Not even Trump was given HCQ which is the biggest tell of all, despite him promoting it.

We DO still use leeches...

end of the road

polesheep wrote: »

He has given NO evidence. He frequently posts things and makes claims that he cannot back up.

he has given plenty of evidence, it just doesn't suit your agenda which is your problem.
he backs up what he can where he can and if there is something he is unable to post information for due to confidentiality reasons he informs us of that fact.

Deleted User wrote: »

What "evidence" are you talking about? Here's more Doctors below saying hydroxychloroquine and zinc are successfully curing their patients. I can link endless other Doctors saying the same thing. Are they lying? I'll take their word from the field treating actual patients over whatever vague or funded "evidence" you're alluding to.

I hope you can understand this: Big pharma are the biggest lobby group of the US government. Those same interests are now primary financiers of the WHO, UN, and other European organizations who our EU governments take a lot of their recommendations from. What do you think these organizations are going to be pushing for?

Suppress cheap, effective treatments to make way for attempted global vaccination and the trillions it will make. Stop listening to the likes of RTE. Do your own research and connect the dots financially.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eVs_EWVCVPc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xfQg7XrvMJ8

i am well aware big pharma lobby, but realistically most aren't going to see these supposed trillions that are to be made (unlikely to be trillions in reality) . so as i said while government can be capable of all sorts, them banning what we know is an ineffective treatment and imposing restrictions on people, all in the aim of helping a couple of companies make "trillions" from a vaccine, which will require big expense to develop, and the profits of which the government won't see much of, is i'm afraid a little bit far fetched, because it makes no real logical sense.
i will keep listening to rte and plenty of other reliable sources as i have always done, as well as doing my own research, again which i have always done.

hmmm

Deleted User wrote: »

You cannot dismiss lots of Doctors going on record to say they have successfully and consistently treated patients for Covid using hydroxychloroquine/zinc/azithromycin.

Anecdotes are not evidence. We'd still be using leeches if that was the case.

We trial things, compare the drugs versus the placebo, and get definitive results. That's been done with HCQ in several studies.

Not even Trump was given HCQ which is the biggest tell of all, despite him promoting it.

[Deleted User]

Deleted User wrote: »

You cannot dismiss lots of Doctors going on record to say they have successfully and consistently treated patients for Covid using hydroxychloroquine/zinc/azithromycin.

Guess who funded that 'trial' in the UK you shared? The Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation. A common pattern. The same folk who'll be bringing you your vaccine, and in Bill's own words "a 20-1 return on investment" for him. That clip has been removed from YouTube a few days ago, along with anything else remotely going against the main narrative. Another video removed was of a female Doctor breaking down the components of his Moderna funded vaccine.

Each to their own anyway. I know what I will, or won't be taking. Best of luck and good health to you, regardless.

If you don't take the vaccine s and have no contraindications, you are the reason that lockdowns will go on longer than necessary.

[Deleted User]

hmmm wrote: »

I can't believe people are still pushing HCQ. It was a good idea at the time to test it, it has been thoroughly trialed and found to be ineffective. Worse than that, it may actually make Covid worse for some patients. That's how good science works - through randomised trials, and not through blog posts.

You cannot dismiss lots of Doctors going on record to say they have successfully and consistently treated patients for Covid using hydroxychloroquine/zinc/azithromycin.

Guess who funded that 'trial' in the UK you shared? The Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation. A common pattern. The same folk who'll be bringing you your vaccine, and in Bill's own words "a 20-1 return on investment" for him. That clip has been removed from YouTube a few days ago, along with anything else remotely going against the main narrative. Another video removed was of a female Doctor breaking down the components of his Moderna funded vaccine.

Each to their own anyway. I know what I will, or won't be taking. Best of luck and good health to you, regardless.

end of the road

moonage wrote: »

Because there's no money to be made from hydroxychloroquine, even if it is effective.

you think?
sure, i know governments can be capable of all sorts, but when i follow this whole claim through it just doesn't stack up when we look at everything.
on the one hand people are claiming our economy is finished because of minimal restrictions, yet people are claiming that the governments are preventing use of a specific treatment so as to hold out for a vaccine so big pharma can make money which we would only receive a proportion of, which would not come anywhere what it is claimed we have lost.
as i said, governments are capable of all sorts but this doesn't really make any logical sense.
the fact is hydroxychloroquine is not an effective treatment for covid hence it is not being used by most countries, if it was effective it would be used.

hmmm

I can't believe people are still pushing HCQ. It was a good idea at the time to test it, it has been thoroughly trialed and found to be ineffective. Worse than that, it may actually make Covid worse for some patients. That's how good science works - through randomised trials, and not through blog posts.

https://www.recoverytrial.net/news/statement-from-the-chief-investigators-of-the-randomised-evaluation-of-covid-19-therapy-recovery-trial-on-hydroxychloroquine-5-june-2020-no-clinical-benefit-from-use-of-hydroxychloroquine-in-hospitalised-patients-with-covid-19

[Deleted User]

Thats me wrote: »

Point??? This blah-blah-blah was published 2+ weeks before Ireland reached peak of death rate. Since that time there was 6+ months of intesive investigations. I'd say the movie little bit obsolete now.

Put down the Internet, would ya

Thats me

Deleted User wrote: »

Yeah, a month or so into the Covid pandemic (longer re: China etc). Point?

Point??? This blah-blah-blah was published 2+ weeks before Ireland reached peak of death rate. Since that time there was 6+ months of intesive investigations. I'd say the movie little bit obsolete now.

speckle

Deleted User wrote: »

Those are protocols you are referring to, not guidelines. Look, I'm not going to publish the data. It's not mine to publish. Cases of reinfection are happening in HCPs in the HSE and I know of one personally. It's a bit worrying to say the least.

I used the term guidelines as that page links to more than the protocols if you care to look at it and most people here understand guidlines as a word and possible not protocols.
Even if you know one case of confirmed re infection, we know of a handful in the world out of millions of recoverys. A bit of perspective is needed not scarmongery. And I do hope your friend recovers and hope to see the case documented in a scientific paper as I have read the details of the others.
Hiw many do you know that have recovered?

Rodin

[Deleted User] wrote: »

It's not just one Doctor. It's many, many Doctors..

Here you go:
https://www.ijidonline.com/article/S1201-9712(20)30534-8/fulltext

Conclusion:
"In this multi-hospital assessment, when controlling for COVID-19 risk factors, treatment with hydroxychloroquine alone and in combination with azithromycin was associated with reduction in COVID-19 associated mortality. Prospective trials are needed to examine this impact."

Mortality rate halved, and they didn't even use zinc. Based on what other Doctors are saying, zinc is a vital part of the hydroxychloroquine/zinc/azithromycin protocol.

I think you need to look up what a randomised controlled trial is.
The bit at the end where it says 'PROspective trials are needed' should have given it away.

The study itself even states it's retrospective.

Next!!

[Deleted User]

Rodin wrote: »

One doctor's anecdotes is not evidence.

It's not just one Doctor. It's many, many Doctors..

Rodin wrote: »

I have seen no randomised controlled trial that proves that Plaquenil works in Covid...

Here you go:
https://www.ijidonline.com/article/S1201-9712(20)30534-8/fulltext

Conclusion:
"In this multi-hospital assessment, when controlling for COVID-19 risk factors, treatment with hydroxychloroquine alone and in combination with azithromycin was associated with reduction in COVID-19 associated mortality. Prospective trials are needed to examine this impact."

Mortality rate halved, and they didn't even use zinc. Based on what other Doctors are saying, zinc is a vital part of the hydroxychloroquine/zinc/azithromycin protocol.

Rodin

I have seen no randomised controlled trial that proves that Plaquenil works in Covid...

One doctor's anecdotes is not evidence.
Causality is not proven.

CalamariFritti

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

Well 'lockdown' is a rather subjective term, but if you don't believe more severe restrictions are going to be introduced over the next week or so, you may be in for a bit of a shock...

You were right and yes I am shocked.

[Deleted User]

Thats me wrote: »

Have you noticed the date when this video was published?

Yeah, a month or so into the Covid pandemic (longer re: China etc). Point?

People infected, treated with hydroxychloroquine/zinc, and then recovered quickly.

The idea is hydroxychloroquine acts as an ionophore to allow zinc enter the cells (other more easily available ionophores include Quercetin and EGCG). Zinc inhibits the enzyme the virus is using to replicate. Azithromycin, commonly added to this protocol, is said to deal with any secondary infections.

Thats me

Deleted User wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eVs_EWVCVPc

Have you noticed the date when this video was published?

Thierry12

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Those are protocols you are referring to, not guidelines. Look, I'm not going to publish the data. It's not mine to publish. Cases of reinfection are happening in HCPs in the HSE and I know of one personally. It's a bit worrying to say the least.

Yeah that's the next step

Reinfections

West media have ignored it but will be news soon

Brazil have 247 cases of possible re-infection

Iran loads too but not verified and wont be

https://www.cnnbrasil.com.br/amp/saude/2020/10/19/brasil-investiga-pelo-menos-247-casos-de-possiveis-reinfeccoes-por-covid-19?__twitter_impression=true

If our immune system cant generate a response, its failed to do its job or we do infact have many strains of Covid19

That's made making a sterilising vaccine and natural herd immunity a whole lot harder

[Deleted User]

end of the road wrote: »

yeah, they posted the article, greater evidence came to light to show they were incorrect, so they withdrew the article. just like any reputable organisation would do.
the fact is, if it was effective then it would absolutely be used, why in hell would any country simply require huge resources to be spent on development of a vaccine if this was effective in treating covid? answer, they wouldn't.

What "evidence" are you talking about? Here's more Doctors below saying hydroxychloroquine and zinc are successfully curing their patients. I can link endless other Doctors saying the same thing. Are they lying? I'll take their word from the field treating actual patients over whatever vague or funded "evidence" you're alluding to.

I hope you can understand this: Big pharma are the biggest lobby group of the US government. Those same interests are now primary financiers of the WHO, UN, and other European organizations who our EU governments take a lot of their recommendations from. What do you think these organizations are going to be pushing for? :rolleyes:

Suppress cheap, effective treatments to make way for attempted global vaccination and the trillions it will make. Stop listening to the likes of RTE. Do your own research and connect the dots financially.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eVs_EWVCVPc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xfQg7XrvMJ8

polesheep

end of the road wrote: »

it does, it has been pushed throughout this whole situation.
you need to start paying actual attention to what is going on and what is being said.

they likely already are.
however they are going to have to look to us all to help them and the country as a whole otherwise this thing gets out of control and we actually end up a basket case.

yeah, they posted the article, greater evidence came to light to show they were incorrect, so they withdrew the article. just like any reputable organisation would do.
the fact is, if it was effective then it would absolutely be used, why in hell would any country simply require huge resources to be spent on development of a vaccine if this was effective in treating covid? answer, they wouldn't.

he has given you what evidence he can.
you obviously missed the part of his post that stated he cannot and will not release confidential data as it's a sackable offence.

He has given NO evidence. He frequently posts things and makes claims that he cannot back up.