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ESB eCars

liamog

Details from the dail on the eCars €10,000,000 expansion programme.

The key elements include six high speed charging hubs on motorways capable of charging eight vehicles simultaneously; 16 high speed charging hubs capable of charging four vehicles simultaneously; additional high power chargers at 34 current 50 kW locations; upgrading over 50 22 kW chargers to 50 kW, and replacing up to 264 locations with 528 charge points at the pre-existing pilot grade of 22 kW to next generation high reliability models.

https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/question/2019-01-24/10/?fbclid=IwAR1eGLQjNFuywCoaB__FJADns7gNOD09DaR9XLueHAKZ8vljfd-kL-_LpDs

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[Deleted User]

New Zoe is uses CCS though I think still crippled to 50 kw.

slave1

slave1 wrote: »

Not too sure, I know the older ones are Type 2, I was just thinking that if it was occupying the Type 2 then the Mad could have hooked up to the CCS

My bad, the new High Power units do not have a Type 2 connection.

AndyBoBandy

Deleted User wrote: »

New Zoe is uses CCS though I think still crippled to 50 kw.

In Kilcullen though, you can't really blame the Zoe for using the (free) 150kW unit as opposed to the (€0.30 per kW) 50kW unit.

While it's still free, it's fair game that anyone can & should use it, regardless of how fast or slow they can draw from it....

Cyrus

AndyBoBandy wrote: »

In Kilcullen though, you can't really blame the Zoe for using the (free) 150kW unit as opposed to the (€0.30 per kW) 50kW unit.

While it's still free, it's fair game that anyone can & should use it, regardless of how fast or slow they can draw from it....

which is why they need to start charging asap, its an inefficient use of an expensive resource, they really are a shambles, its not as if someone surprised them with some 150 KW chargers :pac:

liamog

Guy with car that maxes out at 50kW complains that other car that maxes out at 50kW is using charger as he can't get the free charge that someone else is.

ELM327

liamog wrote: »

Guy with car phev that maxes out at 50kW complains that other car that maxes out at 50kW is using charger as he can't get the free charge that someone else is.

slave1

liamog wrote: »

Guy with car that maxes out at 50kW complains that other car that maxes out at 50kW is using charger as he can't get the free charge that someone else is.

Where are you reading that complaint post?
Hard crowd here at times

the_amazing_raisin

Deleted User wrote: »

Seriously, you'd complain about having to pay 79 cent per Kwh for the ouple of times you might need it when you get it for much less on night rate at home for most of your charging needs ?

I'd gladly pay this for the odd time I need the chargers if they are available I will gladly pay than risk paying 29 cent per Kwh at an ESB charger with a much greater risk of having to queue.

Yeah a lot of people don't seem to get that the base Ionity price is for occasional users, people using it regularly would sign up to a subscription model.

Yes the price is higher, but the service is much better. And if the network doesn't turn a profit, then it'll fall into disrepair, exactly like the eCars network which is dependant on government grants to grow

the_amazing_raisin

ELM327 wrote: »

Probably because Ionity is not really used since Maingau ended and we're stuck with exorbitant rates

Maingau ended? When was this announced?

liamog

cruisey1987 wrote: »

Maingau ended? When was this announced?

Their advantageous pricing was ended, it still makes sense to use a maingau card, as Ionity's biling places quite a large hold on your card each time a charging session is started.

ELM327

cruisey1987 wrote: »

Yeah a lot of people don't seem to get that the base Ionity price is for occasional users, people using it regularly would sign up to a subscription model.

Yes the price is higher, but the service is much better. And if the network doesn't turn a profit, then it'll fall into disrepair, exactly like the eCars network which is dependant on government grants to grow

What subscription model do you suggest?

cruisey1987 wrote: »

Maingau ended? When was this announced?

1st sept

the_amazing_raisin

liamog wrote: »

Their advantageous pricing was ended, it still makes sense to use a maingau card, as Ionity's biling places quite a large hold on your card each time a charging session is started.

Thanks, finally managed to find the news, looks like chargepoint are now cheapest

ELM327

cruisey1987 wrote: »

Thanks, finally managed to find the news, looks like chargepoint are now cheapest

63c/kWh
To do 10-80% in my S90D would cost about €32. Hardly cheap for ~230km.

the_amazing_raisin

ELM327 wrote: »

What subscription model do you suggest?

Chargepoint seems cheapest, and a lot of manufacturers are offering subscriptions which give you a better rate on Ionity

the_amazing_raisin

ELM327 wrote: »

63c/kWh
To do 10-80% in my S90D would cost about €32. Hardly cheap for ~230km.

Use the superchargers, they're free

ELM327

cruisey1987 wrote: »

Chargepoint seems cheapest, and a lot of manufacturers are offering subscriptions which give you a better rate on Ionity

Only some, not Tesla (or Jaguar, or Hyundai/Kia)

cruisey1987 wrote: »

Use the superchargers, they're free

Nope. 29c/kWh. Instead of €32 it would cost about €14 for the "fillup".
Paying for charging always seems more palatable when the coffees and sandwiches cost the same or more than the electricity.

the_amazing_raisin

ELM327 wrote: »

Nope. 29c/kWh. Instead of €32 it would cost about €14 for the "fillup".

My mistake, I thought S and X owners still got free charging.

See if Tesla will offer an Ionity plan?

AndyBoBandy

Cyrus wrote: »

its not as if someone surprised them with some 150 KW chargers :pac:

it's ecars....... so lets not rule anything out..

:D:D

McGiver

ELM327 wrote: »

The 150kW wont be free for long, this is a short-lived issue. Expect them to be about 1.1X-1.3X the price of the 50kW

Yeah, but as Ecars isn't really a private for-profit enterprise but a semi-state monopoly at the moment, they can set the rates as they wish and distort the market. So I suspect 1.1x will be the case...

In CZ and DE E-ON (large German electricity provider) have the per kWh prices in 1:2:3 ratio for 22 kW AC:50 kW DC:175kW DC at 12c/24c/36c. So the 175kW is 1.5x the price of 50 kW DC.

Fortrum in NO/SV/FI charges per min or per kWh & per min but the concept is similar as the German one, ratio 1:2:3 (roughly), even though it's time based, which is brilliant for utilisation (they are smart).

AC - 2 NOK per min (16c)
DC 50 - 4 NOK per min (32c)
DC 150+ - 4 NOK per min (16c) + 2.5 NOK per kWh (24c)

Fastned in NL just charges ridiculous flat 59c per kWh price for all type of charging.

McGiver

McGiver wrote: »

Yeah, but as Ecars isn't really a private for-profit enterprise but a semi-state monopoly at the moment, they can set the rates as they wish and distort the market. So I suspect 1.1x will be the case...

In CZ and DE E-ON (large German electricity provider) have the per kWh prices in 1:2:3 ratio for 22 kW AC:50 kW DC:175kW DC at 12c/24c/36c. So the 175kW is 1.5x the price of 50 kW DC.

Fortrum in NO/SV/FI charges per min or per kWh & per min but the concept is similar as the German one, ratio 1:2:3 (roughly), even though it's time based, which is brilliant for utilisation (they are smart).

AC - 2 NOK per min (16c)
DC 50 - 4 NOK per min (32c)
DC 150+ - 4 NOK per min (16c) + 2.5 NOK per kWh (24c)

Fastned in NL just charges ridiculous flat 59c per kWh price for all type of charging.

Fortrum is still cheaper than base Ionity! And prevents any sort of hogging and overstays. It's the best model by far.

So a little example. Assume Tesla charging 15 minutes at 150 kW (ignoring the curves and all that) - will get 37 kWh in 15 minutes. Well anyway, for the sake of the maths let's say it is realistic.

Ionity 79c*37 kWh = €29.23
Fortrum = 32c*15 min + 24c*37 kWh = €13.68
Fastned = 59c*37 kWh = €21.83

liamog

McGiver wrote: »

Yeah, but as Ecars isn't really a private for-profit enterprise but a semi-state monopoly at the moment
...

Fortrum in NO/SV/FI charges per min or per kWh & per min but the concept is similar as the German one, ratio 1:2:3 (roughly), even though it's time based, which is brilliant for utilisation (they are smart).

Fortum have the same corporate ownership as ESB, they are a Finnish semi state.
We can blame the NTA for not opening up motorway charging stations to competition.

McGiver

liamog wrote: »

Fortum have the same corporate ownership as ESB, they are a Finnish semi state.
We can blame the NTA for not opening up motorway charging stations to competition.

Yes, they do but that's irrelevant. This is not an ideological question.

The difference is in how they go about it, and how they regulate the market.

It's perfectly fine for the state to tender out charging infrastructure to semi-states as long as you don't distort the market, the market is properly regulated and the conditions for the tenders are reasonable. None of that applies to Ireland...

liamog

McGiver wrote: »

Yes, they do but that's irrelevant. This is not an ideological question.

The difference is in how they go about it, and how they regulate the market.

It's perfectly fine for the state to tender out charging infrastructure to semi-states as long as you don't distort the market, the market is properly regulated and the conditions for the tenders are reasonable. None of that applies to Ireland...

In Norway, the state put out a tender for charging operators when the market was too immature to support commercial chargers. A semi state organisation won the tenders and supplied charging services (GOOD)

In Ireland, the state offload the responsibility for building a charging network as the market was too immature to support commercial chargers. A semi state organisation did the work and supplied charging services (BAD).

Why blame the organisation when it's the government who's at fault here. Throwing shade at it being a state owned organisation has nothing to do with the problem. It's our government ineptitude that's the problem.

Cyrus

liamog wrote: »

In Norway, the state put out a tender for charging operators when the market was too immature to support commercial chargers. A semi state organisation won the tenders and supplied charging services (GOOD)

In Ireland, the state offload the responsibility for building a charging network as the market was too immature to support commercial chargers. A semi state organisation did the work and supplied charging services (BAD).

Why blame the organisation when it's the government who's at fault here. Throwing shade at it being a state owned organisation has nothing to do with the problem. It's our government ineptitude that's the problem.

im not really sure what the issue is, the ESB is actually a very capable engineering company that delivers excellent projects worldwide, why this roll out of ev charging is such a clusterfook is beyond me.

McGiver

liamog wrote: »

In Norway, the state put out a tender for charging operators when the market was too immature to support commercial chargers. A semi state organisation won the tenders and supplied charging services (GOOD)

In Ireland, the state offload the responsibility for building a charging network as the market was too immature to support commercial chargers. A semi state organisation did the work and supplied charging services (BAD).

Why blame the organisation when it's the government who's at fault here. Throwing shade at it being a state owned organisation has nothing to do with the problem. It's our government ineptitude that's the problem.

Yeah, exactly, that's my point. I'm not against semi-states per se, what matters is the rules around them. We're in agreement here...

Yes, it's down to the state legislation/regulation here, not down to Ecars/ESB. They just carry out the mandate given by them by the gov and under current (not that correct) legislation and under the current (again faulty) regulatory regime, and as a semi-state do that with all their inefficiency as usual.

KCross

Cyrus wrote: »

im not really sure what the issue is, the ESB is actually a very capable engineering company that delivers excellent projects worldwide, why this roll out of ev charging is such a clusterfook is beyond me.

Because there is little money to be made in it. They are profit driven. Until the govt were willing to pony up some money they sat on their hands.

The CRU didnt help either. They procrastinated about who owns the network for a couple of years during which time eCars didnt expand the network as it would have been all for nothing if the CRU took the network off them.

Why they are so slow over the last 12-18 months to roll out the super hubs is a mystery though.

the_amazing_raisin

Cyrus wrote: »

im not really sure what the issue is, the ESB is actually a very capable engineering company that delivers excellent projects worldwide, why this roll out of ev charging is such a clusterfook is beyond me.

I think the short answer is that the ESB doesn't want to do it, so they're putting in as few resources as possible.

I don't see how DC charging companies in Ireland will ever make money, at 29c/kWh they're probably just covering the price of the electricity.

I still think the best hope is for businesses to provide charging on-site to entice customers. As was pointed out a few weeks ago, a service station makes twice as much profit on a cup of coffee as a €50 tank of diesel. Car manufacturers could get in on it as well, providing the charging equipment and specialist knowledge, since they'd be able to command a better price.

The trick for the government is to tailor grants and planning laws around making sure the type of charger is suitable for a location. It's nice that Tesco is installing 22kW chargers, but let's face it, for the majority of folks they're useless. 2x 50kW chargers would be more useful as you can fit in a weekly shop around a charging session

This has to be balanced with

McGiver

Cyrus wrote: »

im not really sure what the issue is, the ESB is actually a very capable engineering company that delivers excellent projects worldwide, why this roll out of ev charging is such a clusterfook is beyond me.

The issue is - lack of market regulation, lack of competition, lack of legislation, red tape etc.

It's not an engineering question. After all, it's all relatively simple electrical stuff we're talking about.

the_amazing_raisin

KCross wrote: »

Why they are so slow over the last 12-18 months to roll out the super hubs is a mystery though.

That one bugs me the most, I know they've been trying to replace broken equipment first, but those charging hubs were really the highlight of the expansion plan.

I would have thought if anyone could fast track installing a 600kW-1200kW supply it would be the ESB...

McGiver

cruisey1987 wrote: »

I think the short answer is that the ESB doesn't want to do it, so they're putting in as few resources as possible.

I don't see how DC charging companies in Ireland will ever make money, at 29c/kWh they're probably just covering the price of the electricity.

You may be right regarding the ESB.

If you think this is the case then follow Germany and mandate petrol stations/car parkers to install chargers by law. Yes, it's quite a bit interventionist but if we want to wait for the "market to fix it" then we're for a long wait....

I'd say, given that it's linked to emissions and international commitments Ireland has made regarding them, it should be fine for the gov to mandate this.