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2020 the battle of the septuagenarians - Trump vs Biden, Part 2

Beasty

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Leroy42

That isn't evidence of what you think it is. That is only saying that they had other health issues, not that they would have died regardless.

And would they have died when they did? You do understand that there is a difference between dying now and saying at some point in the future?

You need to show that they would have died, when they died, even without Covid. That CDC report doesn't show that.

You have seen the report showing 200k+ additional deaths over the average, what do you attribute that to? Simply a poor year? The facts are completely against you, despite you clinging to anything to avoid seeing the reality that Trump has lead to such a terrible response.

ohnonotgmail

LessOutragePlz wrote: »

Yeah the evidence is right here based on the data released by the CDC.

Let me do the maths for you

180k * 6% = 10,800 people that died directly as a result of covid.

The other 94% died with covid not due to covid alone. Those people that died having on average an additional 2.6 conditions or causes per death.

"The CDC said: For deaths with conditions or causes in addition to COVID-19, on average, there were 2.6 additional conditions or causes per death. "

http://nbc25news.com/news/local/cdc-94-of-covid-19-deaths-had-underlying-medical-conditions

just because someone already has an illness does not mean they are due to to die of that illness any time soon. I have diabetes. There is no chance of me dying of diabetes any time soon. If i catch covid and die you would say i didn't die of covid because i already had diabetes. your argument is particularly stupid and it is worrying that you cannot see that.

Igotadose

Eric Cartman wrote: »

the US and the UK have a much larger culture of personal freedoms and 'boo gubberment' than most of the world, the greater good doesn't apply, just individualism.

Regardless of leaders, rules or enforcement , their numbers were always going to be higher and their 'I don't need no mask' sentiments more prevalent.

This is not a defence of either of those governments or their massive f*ckups but it was always going to more resemble hearding cats than the rest of europe.

So, following through on this line of 'reasoning', the US should make no effort to improve its response because that's just the way they are, and we should re-elect the #IMPOTUS because, well, there's nothing he can do, and after all he takes no responsibility and it is what it is? Heck, call off the election now. Or decide it in a steel-cage no-holds barred no disqualification match?

Chris_Heilong

Igotadose wrote: »

Murderer in Wisconsin was 17. His mother drove him to the protest so he could play cop, and while at it murder two people
Alt-right types with Proud in their names typically live in their basements or on the dole. Ammon Bundy, recently arrested, lives at home.

Who are Antifa, exactly? Have you got a link?

A bunch of dangerous radical that have been fooled into believing they can bring on a revolution with acts of terror, they are weak minded and usually dont fit into society. The biggest issue is that the democrats and news media are supporting them and are directly responsible for the deaths that have happened recently. Best thing to do is have a no tolerance policy and lock them all up.

Igotadose

Chris_Heilong wrote: »

A bunch of dangerous radical that have been fooled into believing they can bring on a revolution with acts of terror, they are weak minded and usually dont fit into society. The biggest issue is that the democrats and news media are supporting them and are directly responsible for the deaths that have happened recently. Best thing to do is have a no tolerance policy and lock them all up.

Sorry, I wasn't precise enough. Do they have a web site? Is there a membership drive happening anywhere? Or do they just exist in Fox news's mind (and yours, clearly)

ohnonotgmail

Chris_Heilong wrote: »

A bunch of dangerous radical that have been fooled into believing they can bring on a revolution with acts of terror, they are weak minded and usually dont fit into society. The biggest issue is that the democrats and news media are supporting them and are directly responsible for the deaths that have happened recently. Best thing to do is have a no tolerance policy and lock them all up.

so the media are responsible and not the police and right wing terrorists shooting people that are responsible? an interesting perspective. and by interesting i mean stupid.

LessOutragePlz

Igotadose wrote: »

Sorry, I wasn't precise enough. Do they have a web site? Is there a membership drive happening anywhere? Or do they just exist in Fox news's mind (and yours, clearly)

Yeah here's their website.

www.antifa.com

Leroy42

Eric Cartman wrote: »

the US and the UK have a much larger culture of personal freedoms and 'boo gubberment' than most of the world, the greater good doesn't apply, just individualism.

Regardless of leaders, rules or enforcement , their numbers were always going to be higher and their 'I don't need no mask' sentiments more prevalent.

This is not a defence of either of those governments or their massive f*ckups but it was always going to more resemble hearding cats than the rest of europe.

It is because of their leaders. Had Trump worn a mask from day 1 then there wouldn't be a debate. If Trump had taken into seriously rather than looking to pretend it wasn't happening it would have been much better.

Had Johnson grasped the nettle and ordered the lockdown rather than try to avoid making the decision it would have helped. Had Johnson fired Cummings for breaking the rules it would have made a difference.

It perfectly reasonable to say the their countries are different than others, but then they as leaders of those countries should be aware of that and know how to counteract it not increase it.

By extension you are really trying to argue that the leaders of US and UK are immaterial to the running of the country.

hotmail.com

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

You were asked for Bidens plans/policies and when they were posted you changed your tactic.

Are you not bothered that Trump doesn't have the very thing that you are demanding from Biden?

I asked for specific policies. I'm not clear on how Biden will address poverty, the main cause of crime.

ThunbergsAreGo

Leroy42 wrote: »

It is because of their leaders. Had Trump worn a mask from day 1 then there wouldn't be a debate. If Trump had taken into seriously rather than looking to pretend it wasn't happening it would have been much better.

Had Johnson grasped the nettle and ordered the lockdown rather than try to avoid making the decision it would have helped. Had Johnson fired Cummings for breaking the rules it would have made a difference.

It perfectly reasonable to say the their countries are different than others, but then they as leaders of those countries should be aware of that and know how to counteract it not increase it.

By extension you are really trying to argue that the leaders of US and UK are immaterial to the running of the country.

On Day 1 the Irish Government were discouraging the use of masks, as were the WHO

Timberrrrrrrr

hotmail.com wrote: »

I asked for specific policies. I'm not clear on how Biden will address poverty, the main cause of crime.

Why demand Bidens but not care that Trump doesn't have any? How is Trump going to address poverty?

[Deleted User]

LessOutragePlz wrote: »

It's a simple fact the underlying condition contributed to the death and therefore, covid alone did not kill them. So to say that covid was the cause of death is wrong and inaccurate.

The vast majority of those people would not be dead without covid. This is backed up by excess deaths. So concluding only 10,000 died from covid is a complete distortion of reality.

hotmail.com

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Why demand Bidens but not care that Trump doesn't have any? How is Trump going to address poverty?

Because we know he isn't and won't address it. He didn't address it in the last 4 years.

Biden is ahead in the polls. Critical thinkers should be examining his policies. It's fairly straight forward.

Timberrrrrrrr

hotmail.com wrote: »

Because we know he isn't and won't address it. He didn't address it in the last 4 years.

Biden is ahead in the polls. Critical thinkers should be examining his policies. It's fairly straight forward.

You're not getting it.

You're demanding Bidens policied (which were shown to you earlier) yet refuse to acknowledge the fact that Trump has none!

Why should people vote for Trump if his only policy is MAGA!

hotmail.com

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

You're not getting it.

You're demanding Bidens policied (which were shown to you earlier) yet refuse to acknowledge the fact that Trump has none!

Why should people vote for Trump if his only policy is MAGA!

So you don't know his policies and couldn't care less it seems.

Just another Trump obsessed keyboard person.

Quin_Dub

LessOutragePlz wrote: »

Yeah the evidence is right here based on the data released by the CDC.

Let me do the maths for you

180k * 6% = 10,800 people that died directly as a result of covid.

The other 94% died with covid not due to covid alone. Those people that died having on average an additional 2.6 conditions or causes per death.

"The CDC said: For deaths with conditions or causes in addition to COVID-19, on average, there were 2.6 additional conditions or causes per death. "

http://nbc25news.com/news/local/cdc-94-of-covid-19-deaths-had-underlying-medical-conditions

Anyone that died with Covid died because of Covid.

Regardless of whether someone had cancer or whatever , if they died even a minute earlier than they were expected to due to the Covid infection then IT WAS COVID THAT KILLED THEM.

Using your logic , If a terminally ill person was murdered in their home by a burglar , the burglar is not responsible because they were terminal anyway.

Penn

hotmail.com wrote: »

So you don't know his policies and couldn't care less it seems.

Just another Trump obsessed keyboard person.

Biden's policy on Coronavirus is "do something about it". That trumps Trump's "It is what it is" policy. So Biden wins that one at least, would you agree?

namloc1980

hotmail.com wrote: »

So you don't know his policies and couldn't care less it seems.

Just another Trump obsessed keyboard person.

Biden has actual policies for dealing with poverty. He even has plans for tackling rural poverty (which are overwhelmingly Republican areas) as they have been ignored by Republicans for decades. 85% of counties in the USA in persistent poverty are rural - most in the south and midwest Republican states. Ironically these people will vote overwhelmingly for Trump and he doesn't give a crap about them.

https://www.ers.usda.gov/data-products/county-typology-codes/descriptions-and-maps/#ppov

persistentpoverty_450px.png?v=5532

Persistent Poverty
Persistent poverty (353 total, 301 nonmetro) counties: 20 percent or more of residents were poor as measured by each of the 1980, 1990, 2000 censuses, and 2007-11 American Community Survey 5-year average.

namloc1980

Quin_Dub wrote: »

Anyone that died with Covid died because of Covid.

Regardless of whether someone had cancer or whatever , if they died even a minute earlier than they were expected to due to the Covid infection then IT WAS COVID THAT KILLED THEM.

Using your logic , If a terminally ill person was murdered in their home by a burglar , the burglar is not responsible because they were terminal anyway.

Pretty callous to write off people with underlying conditions as mere statistics that would die anyway. You'd think Trump supporters would be pro-life.

Timberrrrrrrr

hotmail.com wrote: »

So you don't know his policies and couldn't care less it seems.

Just another Trump obsessed keyboard person.

They were posted here earlier, you commented on the post!

On the flip side

So you don't know Trumps policies and couldn't care less it seems.

Just another Biden obsessed keyboard person.

extra gravy

namloc1980 wrote: »

You'd think Trump supporters would be pro-life.

Nah they're just pro-birth because that's something they can try and control, they don't give a shiit about you once you're born.

ohnonotgmail

LessOutragePlz wrote: »

They all handled it as best they could same as the US and Trump that why I'm not classifying it as a terrible job.

they all got a handle on the problem (with perhaps the exception of the UK) and deaths have leveled off. that is not the case with the US. trump doesn't even mention it any more. covid doesnt exist according to him. it involves doing actual work so he isn't interested.

Tell me how

hotmail.com wrote: »

So you don't know his policies and couldn't care less it seems.

Just another Trump obsessed keyboard person.

You do know everyone can see the posts which you have commented on?
Have you forgotten you already quoted Biden's policies?

Carfacemandog

LessOutragePlz wrote: »

Can you provide any evidence for this claim?

Covid is listed as the underlying cause of death ('dying from covid) 'in 95% of Covid deaths in the US, only in 5% is it listed as a contributing cause ('dying with covid').

For the majority of deaths where COVID-19 is reported on the death certificate (approximately 95%), COVID-19 is selected as the underlying cause of death.

The source is the same CDC that you cited in your initial post: https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid19/excess_deaths.htm

duploelabs

LessOutragePlz wrote: »

Yeah here's their website.

www.antifa.com

Bringing that level of discourse is truly pathetic

Carfacemandog

ThunbergsAreGo wrote: »

Thats actually the first time i have heard that. What he said makes alot more sense now. And is alot less contraversial than has been suggested many times... Bit if you repeat a lie enough

He literally disassociated the comment and himself from white nationalists in that video.

Trump being elected no doubt showed up divisions in Ameruca, but the media seems intent on pushing peoole further apart with sensationalist reporting (on both sides)

Except he didn't - after days of refusing to comment on the incident at all, he came out and said essentially "apart the Nazis there were good people on both sides here", while ignoring the fact that the entire rally was organised by neo Nazis.

On top of that, the person I was responding to was trying to claim that one of the neo Nazi organisers of that (Richard Spencer) had endorsed Biden and so that must mean Biden is racist too. Except Biden's campaign immediately came out and denounced Spencer and rejected his support. Trump on the other hand refused to reject Spencer's support in 2016, refused to criticise his 'Heil Trump!' speeches after the election, refused to condemn him by name for his organising of the 2017 Nazi march (or to even acknowledge that it was Nazi organised), and instead hired a very close associate of his who is also a white supremacist - Steven Miller - to be a close advisor in the White House.

Outlaw Pete

Tell me how wrote: »

Can you give us a link to Trumps?

Here you go:

Building on the incredible achievements of President Donald J. Trump’s first term in office, the President’s re-election campaign today released a set of core priorities for a second term under the banner of “Fighting for You!” President Trump’s boundless optimism and certainty in America’s greatness is reflected in his second-term goals and stands in stark contrast to the gloomy vision of America projected by Joe Biden and Democrats.

President Trump will further illuminate these plans during his acceptance speech Thursday at the Republican National Convention. Over the coming weeks, the President will be sharing additional details about his plans through policy-focused speeches on the campaign trail.

President Trump: Fighting for You!

JOBS
Create 10 Million New Jobs in 10 Months

Create 1 Million New Small Businesses

Cut Taxes to Boost Take-Home Pay and Keep Jobs in America

Enact Fair Trade Deals that Protect American Jobs

"Made in America" Tax Credits

Expand Opportunity Zones

Continue Deregulatory Agenda for Energy Independence

ERADICATE COVID-19
Develop a Vaccine by The End Of 2020

Return to Normal in 2021

Make All Critical Medicines and Supplies for Healthcare Workers in The United States

Refill Stockpiles and Prepare for Future Pandemics

END OUR RELIANCE ON CHINA
Bring Back 1 Million Manufacturing Jobs from China

Tax Credits for Companies that Bring Back Jobs from China

Allow 100% Expensing Deductions for Essential Industries like Pharmaceuticals and Robotics who Bring Back their Manufacturing to the United States

No Federal Contracts for Companies who Outsource to China

Hold China Fully Accountable for Allowing the Virus to Spread around the World

HEALTHCARE
Cut Prescription Drug Prices

Put Patients and Doctors Back in Charge of our Healthcare System

Lower Healthcare Insurance Premiums

End Surprise Billing

Cover All Pre-Existing Conditions

Protect Social Security and Medicare

Protect Our Veterans and Provide World-Class Healthcare and Services

EDUCATION
Provide School Choice to Every Child in America

Teach American Exceptionalism

DRAIN THE SWAMP
Pass Congressional Term Limits

End Bureaucratic Government Bullying of U.S. Citizens and Small Businesses

Expose Washington’s Money Trail and Delegate Powers Back to People and States

Drain the Globalist Swamp by Taking on International Organizations That Hurt American Citizens

DEFEND OUR POLICE
Fully Fund and Hire More Police and Law Enforcement Officers

Increase Criminal Penalties for Assaults on Law Enforcement Officers

Prosecute Drive-By Shootings as Acts of Domestic Terrorism

Bring Violent Extremist Groups Like ANTIFA to Justice

End Cashless Bail and Keep Dangerous Criminals Locked Up until Trial

END ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION AND PROTECT AMERICAN WORKERS
Block Illegal Immigrants from Becoming Eligible for Taxpayer-Funded Welfare, Healthcare, and Free College Tuition

Mandatory Deportation for Non-Citizen Gang Members

Dismantle Human Trafficking Networks

End Sanctuary Cities to Restore our Neighborhoods and Protect our Families

Prohibit American Companies from Replacing United States Citizens with Lower-Cost Foreign Workers

Require New Immigrants to Be Able to Support Themselves Financially

INNOVATE FOR THE FUTURE
Launch Space Force, Establish Permanent Manned Presence on The Moon and Send the First Manned Mission to Mars

Build the World’s Greatest Infrastructure System

Win the Race to 5G and Establish a National High-Speed Wireless Internet Network

Continue to Lead the World in Access to the Cleanest Drinking Water and Cleanest Air

Partner with Other Nations to Clean Up our Planet’s Oceans

AMERICA FIRST FOREIGN POLICY
Stop Endless Wars and Bring Our Troops Home

Get Allies to Pay their Fair Share

Maintain and Expand America’s Unrivaled Military Strength

Wipe Out Global Terrorists Who Threaten to Harm Americans

Build a Great Cybersecurity Defense System and Missile Defense System

DEFEND AMERICAN VALUES
Continue nominating constitutionalist Supreme Court and lower court judges

Protect unborn life through every means available

Defend the freedoms of religious believers and organizations

Support the exercise of Second Amendment rights

Carfacemandog

LessOutragePlz wrote: »

The death per million figure of 552 for the USA is similar to the death per million figure of the UK, Sweden, France and Italy.

So the US ain't doing a terrible job at dealing with it despite people constantly talking about the total deaths.

https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/total-covid-deaths-per-million?tab=table

Of the three countries you listed, one got absolutely destroyed by the virus before anyone really knew what it was (Italy), while the other three have also been hugely criticised for their handling of the virus also. Added to that, the US was barely hit at all outside of NY and NJ for several months but failed to do much of anything to contain it - and had a president who not only pretended the virus wasn't real, but actively made sure to stop measures that could help by demanding his supporters partake in armed 'liberations' of states that were trying to contain the virus with lockdown/stay-at-home orders.

I remember back in April and May how Trump apologists gleefully couldn't stop reminding everyone how their total cases were far lower than Ireland's per capita. Yet today, they have more than treble the number of cases per million, and if Ireland were a US state we would have the 5th lowest per capita cases out of 51 - ahead of only New Hampshire, West Virginia, Maine and Vermont.

Trump had every advantage in the world to look good here, but failed badly. That you are trying to compare positively to the likes of Sweden and the UK on their handling of Covid says all it needs to, on that front.

weisses

LessOutragePlz wrote: »

Can you provide any evidence for this claim?

https://theconversation.com/up-to-204-691-extra-deaths-in-the-us-so-far-in-this-pandemic-year-143139

Knock urself out

Leroy42

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

Here you go:

Most of that is a rehash of the promises he made in 2016.

What is going to be different this time that means he can actually get any of this done?