DART+ (DART Expansion)

ncounties wrote: »

That's great - from post 6435 I've been on about Spencer Dock Station. You know the one that had official plans once released.

To save confusion, let's not call a speculative station by the same name, or at least suffix it with "-proposed overland terminus".

Well either way there's been a bit of confusion, as people are discussing DART Underground and the more immediate plans as if they were one and the same. :-)

One is (as you referred to) the DART Underground station at Spencer Dock, which is planned to be in a tunnel underground.

The other is about the NTA plan first mooted in 2018 to relocate the existing Docklands terminal station to an alternative overground site adjacent to Spencer Dock LUAS stop.

There has been no reference anywhere that I can find that this would be underground. If you can point to something since that newspaper article in May 2018, I'd be very grateful.

Unfortunately I do see this as an NTA stalling tactic for DU.

riddlinrussell

LXFlyer wrote: »

Well either way there's been a bit of confusion, as people are discussing DART Underground and the more immediate plans as if they were one and the same. :-)

One is (as you referred to) the DART Underground station at Spencer Dock, which is planned to be in a tunnel underground.

The other is about the NTA plan to relocate Docklands terminal station to an alternative overground site adjacent to Spencer Dock LUAS stop.

It's important to distinguish between the two!

Looking at that article I can't see anywhere it suggests the 'relocated to spencer dock station' would be an overground station.

Is there a plan detailed for it to be overground elsewhere or is it based on the potential budget that this element would have?

I can't see a scenario where IÉ would go to the trouble of building a station right where the optimal planned end of the DU tunnel would be and not at an absolute bare minimum include essential preparatory works for DU to come up there. Also I don't think there is any feasible above ground space for such a station to be built?

riddlinrussell wrote: »

Looking at that article I can't see anywhere it suggests the 'relocated to spencer dock station' would be an overground station.

Is there a plan detailed for it to be overground elsewhere or is it based on the potential budget that this element would have?

I can't see a scenario where IÉ would go to the trouble of building a station right where the optimal planned end of the DU tunnel would be and not at an absolute bare minimum include essential preparatory works for DU to come up there. Also I don't think there is any feasible above ground space for such a station to be built?

Its not at the tunnel portal. The portal is going to be further North. Its the site of the first in-tunnel station only.

CatInABox

Didn't I read that the NTA were also looking at keeping the current docklands station, so that there's more platforms available post DART+? That way, if they actually do get around to doing DU, they've still got an operational station while DU knocks the new one out for a while.

Personally, I'd like them to get started on the DART+ station as part of this project, create a barebones deep station box, then have the docklands station on top, but I think that might be a step too far, to be honest. It makes sense, but everything about the NTA these days make it seem like they want to go with the cheapest, sanest, safest option.

riddlinrussell

L1011 wrote: »

Its not at the tunnel portal. The portal is going to be further North. Its the site of the first in-tunnel station only.

I feel you are splitting hairs here, I meant to imply that this would be smack bang where an ideal DU 'Underground section terminus' station would be. Where the actual tunnel portal is would be immaterial to my point, as long as it is further north than the station location...

Just to absolutely clear:

My understanding of the NTA plan for the current Docklands Station, based on my own sources and the article that I linked to above, is that it is to be relocated to an alternative site above ground adjacent to Spencer Dock LUAS stop, and to be a four platform station.

I've never heard any suggestion that this station (first proposed in May 2018) would be underground, as it is a different proposal to the DART Underground one. The land that would be used is where the access to the NTA coach park currently is.

I get what some people are saying here about two stations, but this is as I understand it a completely different project from that proposed under DU.

As I say, I view this as a stalling tactic to DU by the NTA, if I am honest about it, which I do not agree with, but that's the way of the world right now. DU is not in favour.

That's all I am going to say on this.

riddlinrussell

LXFlyer wrote: »

Just to absolutely clear:

My understanding of the NTA plan for the current Docklands Station, based on my own sources and the article that I linked to above, is that it is to be relocated to an alternative site above ground adjacent to Spencer Dock LUAS stop, and to be a four platform station.

I've never heard any suggestion that this station (first proposed in May 2018) would be underground, as it is a different proposal to the DART Underground one. The land that would be used is where the access to the NTA coach park currently is.

I get what some people are saying here about two stations, but this is as I understand it a completely different project from that proposed under DU.

As I say, I view this as a stalling tactic to DU by the NTA, if I am honest about it, which I do not agree with, but that's the way of the world right now. DU is not in favour.

That's all I am going to say on this.

Sorry LX, I didn't intend to sound accusatory towards you, I think it was more that building an Overground station in the area just seems quite a nonsensical proposition given the other factors at play, I suppose my own queries were more just unsure that that was what was actually being proposed for the site given that it seems like the only practical reason to do so would be the final scrapping of DU as an idea, at least in most historically suggested configurations.

Pete_Cavan

I think it is worth noting that the [url=hhttps://www.irishrail.ie/Admin/IrishRail/media/Content/projects-and-investments/DART-brochure.PDF]DART Expansion brochure[/url] doesn't mention anything about relocating Docklands station. The scope of service for the Maynooth line DART upgrade also says;

Remodelling Connolly Station and Docklands Station to increase capacity.

Modifications at key junction approaching Connolly/Docklands Station from north and west to support increased services and flexibility

Nothing about relocation. The relocation thing is separate and there is no indication that it has been included in the scope since.

Separately, the NTA seem to have suggested that they would like to relocate Docklands station but this is not an official project yet. My understanding is that it would relocate to the plot between Sheriff Street and Mayor Street, not where the DU Spencer Dock station was to be (which is the plot further south, between Mayor Street and North Wall Quay). The station would obviously have to pass under Sheriff Street and would possibly be below the level of Mayor Street as well, although not underground.

I am sure that a relocated Docklands station could be built between Sheriff Street and Mayor Street in such a way to allow for construction of the DU tunnel and Spencer Dock station. They just need to determine the gradient of the track required to get under the Liffey and the relocated Docklands station gets built at the level immediately south of Sheriff Street. Ideally the relocated Docklands station would not be on the path of where the tracks heading for the tunnel are to be built. If that is not possible, they will have to lift the tracks at the relocated Docklands and regard in order to connect tracks to the section south of Mayor Street which would could some disruption although that could be the last piece of work before the tunnel opens.

Peregrine

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Nothing about relocation. The relocation thing is separate and there is no indication that it has been included in the scope since.

They've included the area between Sheriff Street and the car park south of Central Square in the surveying tender for Maynooth.

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

I think it is worth noting that the [url=hhttps://www.irishrail.ie/Admin/IrishRail/media/Content/projects-and-investments/DART-brochure.PDF]DART Expansion brochure[/url] doesn't mention anything about relocating Docklands station. The scope of service for the Maynooth line DART upgrade also says;

Nothing about relocation. The relocation thing is separate and there is no indication that it has been included in the scope since.

Separately, the NTA seem to have suggested that they would like to relocate Docklands station but this is not an official project yet. My understanding is that it would relocate to the plot between Sheriff Street and Mayor Street, not where the DU Spencer Dock station was to be (which is the plot further south, between Mayor Street and North Wall Quay). The station would obviously have to pass under Sheriff Street and would possibly be below the level of Mayor Street as well, although not underground.

I am sure that a relocated Docklands station could be built between Sheriff Street and Mayor Street in such a way to allow for construction of the DU tunnel and Spencer Dock station. They just need to determine the gradient of the track required to get under the Liffey and the relocated Docklands station gets built at the level immediately south of Sheriff Street. Ideally the relocated Docklands station would not be on the path of where the tracks heading for the tunnel are to be built. If that is not possible, they will have to lift the tracks at the relocated Docklands and regard in order to connect tracks to the section south of Mayor Street which would could some disruption although that could be the last piece of work before the tunnel opens.

I’d take that brochure as a high level document, rather than a detailed description of the plans for DART expansion.

The latter will only come when the public consultation takes place.

Pete_Cavan

Peregrine wrote: »

They've included the area between Sheriff Street and the car park south of Central Square in the surveying tender for Maynooth.

LXFlyer wrote: »

I’d take that brochure as a high level document, rather than a detailed description of the plans for DART expansion.

The latter will only come when the public consultation takes place.

If the relocated station was to be included as part of DART+ that would be great but I don't think it is there yet, officially at least.

roadmaster

It looks like they had planned to separate stations for Docklands

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/building-to-begin-on-28m-docklands-station-1.1022981

Peregrine

AngryLips wrote: »

It's a shame they're not looking at Dart+ to Kilcock because that's very much a suburb of Dublin these days. It'll become the Greystones of this decade

1huge1 wrote: »

I'd imagine if they can make it out to Maynooth, a spur to Kilcock will be on the cards at some stage similar to how the Greystones extension in 2001 was done (I'm aware that is also single track but to add an extra line to that is a much bigger project due to the cliff face).

The depot will be outside Kilcock so maybe eventually.

Pete_Cavan

I can't see it happening initially, perhaps as part of a future expansion, but extending to Kilcock would also create the opportunity for a P&R beside Musgraves. That would be easily accessible from M4 J8, further east there is nowhere with such direct access from motorway to the rail line. Depending on the paths available after DART+, it might be easier to run a meaningful level of commuter services from Athlone/Mullingar into Dublin.

DoctorPan

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

I think it is worth noting that the [url=hhttps://www.irishrail.ie/Admin/IrishRail/media/Content/projects-and-investments/DART-brochure.PDF]DART Expansion brochure[/url] doesn't mention anything about relocating Docklands station. The scope of service for the Maynooth line DART upgrade also says;

Nothing about relocation. The relocation thing is separate and there is no indication that it has been included in the scope since.

Relocation of Docklands was mentioned by Peter Muldoon during his Engineers Ireland presenation on Dart Expansion.

spacetweek

Sent a mail to NTA about Kishogue. Got a reply:

While the works which are necessary to allow the station to be open will be completed later this year, an exact opening date for the station has not yet been established. The timing of the opening of Kishogue Station will have to take into account the current Covid impacts on public transport capacity. It is intended that this issue will be kept under review over the coming months.

So in 2010 they spend money to build the station - then left it there unopened. Now it 2020 they're spending more money to ready the station - only to leave it unopened again!

1huge1

In fairness, it still sounds quite promising, I'd seems like we are talking a case of months (rather than a decade).

I haven't heard anything in quite a while regarding the large houseing development on the land just adjacent to the station, Clonburris I believe was the name of the development (or area).

spacetweek

Made a list of upcoming new train stations in the Dublin area in the next 10 or so years:

Pelletstown: 2021
Kishogue: 2021 (probably)
Woodbrook: New housing granted PP in March 2020; station to be provided in conjunction 2023
Glasnevin: When Metrolink is finished in 2028
Carnlough Rd: Suggested, not committed
Inchicore: When Lucan Luas is built by 2030
Porterstown: When Metro West is built after 2030

Jamie2k9

spacetweek wrote: »

Sent a mail to NTA about Kishogue. Got a reply:

So in 2010 they spend money to build the station - then left it there unopened. Now it 2020 they're spending more money to ready the station - only to leave it unopened again!

I think developers paid for the station and now the access roads. The real cost will be IE having to staff it.

DART + Consultation for the Maynooth Line is now live:

https://www.irishrail.ie/about-us/iarnrod-eireann-projects-and-investments/DART-Programme

Or DART+ West as they're calling it (because it includes the M3 Parkway spur):
https://www.irishrail.ie/about-us/iarnrod-eireann-projects-and-investments/DART-Programme/DART-West-Public-Consultation/DART-West-Line-Emerging-Preferred-Option

With the depot basically in Kilcock and the track doubled to the depot, its clear that there'll be political pressure to extend to Kilcock now.

Closing Clonsilla LC is going to be contraversial but the road network to the West is proposed to be improved by FCC anyway as well as the Barberstown bridge.

For a layman like myself, can anyone explain how this Spencer Dock station relocation would "increase the overall rail capacity in the City Centre"?

Interesting that they're going for a road tunnel at Ashtown under both the rail line and the canal—that seems much more complex than an overbridge!

MJohnston wrote: »

For a layman like myself, can anyone explain how this Spencer Dock station relocation would "increase the overall rail capacity in the City Centre"?

Increased number of terminal platforms.

At that location it should be possible to make it accessible from the Northern and Drumcondra lines also in future so it isn't just more terminal platforms for the lower line.

Heroditas

MJohnston wrote: »

Interesting that they're going for a road tunnel at Ashtown under both the rail line and the canal—that seems much more complex than an overbridge!

Tunnel makes sense I think. There's little room for the bridge because of the proximity of the apartments and shops like Super Valu.
It's challenging to get anything into that area because of how narrow the existing road is and where the buildings are.

The timeline has "DART+ Coastal South Eastern" railway order on it - the only thing I think this can be is the proposal to dual slightly more of the line between Bray and Greystones to allow a higher frequency.

edit: And/or the remaining level crossings of course.

L1011 wrote: »

Increased number of terminal platforms.

At that location it should be possible to make it accessible from the Northern and Drumcondra lines also in future so it isn't just more terminal platforms for the lower line.

Right but, I guess what I mean is why can't they do that here: