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Is it just me or have SF vanished?

Pkiernan

I haven't seen or heard anything from Mary Lou, Slab Murphy and other good Republicans in ages.

What's going on?

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smurgen

christy c wrote: »

^^^ yeah that probably explains the logic for people voting SF, but there are huge issues with SF currently that should be acknowledged. Even if they had the best housing policy in the world, that is useless if naive corporate and personal tax policies for example are pursued in the name of "fairness". I know I keep bringing it up but imagine how stupid we would have looked going to the market to borrow after spending all of Apple's money? And the probable increased borrowing costs?

You think that's stupid? FFG are now sacrificing our economy and health for meat barons.

https://twitter.com/TodayRadioRTE/status/1292753013279514625?s=19

christy c

^^^ yeah that probably explains the logic for people voting SF, but there are huge issues with SF currently that should be acknowledged. Even if they had the best housing policy in the world, that is useless if naive corporate and personal tax policies for example are pursued in the name of "fairness". I know I keep bringing it up but imagine how stupid we would have looked going to the market to borrow after spending all of Apple's money? And the probable increased borrowing costs?

hatrickpatrick

christy c wrote: »

People have made up their minds one way or another on the IRA- I despise SF but not because of anything to do with the north, but because of their repeated stupid policies and proposals. If Mary Lou was to have an epiphany and start coming up with something sensible, I would vote for them in the morning.

I can understand how people voted for SF out of desperation, but totally disagree with it. Unfortunately, anyone who thinks the demographics will look after themselves, or spending money belonging to Apple while there was an appeal in progress, will not be solving housing/health or any of the major issues in the country.

So you disagree on current policy and ergo you're not going to vote for them. That in my view is how democracy should work. Now, I entirely get that Sinn Fein's past is extremely controversial and that many people have serious, legitimate repulsion for that past. But to those people, I'm just asking if they ever stop to think that many young people agree that sh!t like this is absolutely appalling if it's true, and that voting for a party which is so steeped in controversy is a difficult choice - but that ultimately, it's widely known that FFG have sided with the demographics who pulled the property ladder up and out of reach of the young, and therefore young people feel so helpless and frightened about their futures that they simply don't give a f*ck who they have to vote for in order to get someone in power who actually displays some empathy for that. FG don't. 2000s era FF didn't. SF are the only large party who did. Even Mary Lou's debating performances pre-election this year showed that up again - both FF and FG to different degrees siding with a free market approach to housing and Mary Lou opposed.

Young people know that the free market approach isn't going to work because they recognise central problem is the hoarding of excess property by selfish, greedy f*ckers who want to 'earn' a passive income at the expense of the wellbeing and happiness of the real, hard working human beings they're ripping off in order to get it.. It's as simple as that. They'll vote for anyone who has any vision of destroying that paradigm, come what may.

christy c

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Leaving aside the veracity of the story, does the fact that so many young people are willing to overlook issues such as this and vote for SF anyway not give right leaning folks any pause for thought about just how f*cked people feel by the status quo?

People have made up their minds one way or another on the IRA- I despise SF but not because of anything to do with the north, but because of their repeated stupid policies and proposals. If Mary Lou was to have an epiphany and start coming up with something sensible, I would vote for them in the morning.

I can understand how people voted for SF out of desperation, but totally disagree with it. Unfortunately, anyone who thinks the demographics will look after themselves, or spending money belonging to Apple while there was an appeal in progress, will not be solving housing/health or any of the major issues in the country.

maccored

Truthvader wrote: »

Nothing I can add to this thread could make the point more clearly than your failure to see anything wrong

Translation: 'I cant answer your question so I will provide a sentence that barely makes sense'

hatrickpatrick

Leaving aside the veracity of the story, does the fact that so many young people are willing to overlook issues such as this and vote for SF anyway not give right leaning folks any pause for thought about just how f*cked people feel by the status quo? What I find amazing is how the media in Ireland and the "I'm alright Jack" class will point to all of these allegations against SF, see how it fails to dent their support among young Irish people, and not stop and think about why people might be willing to overlook a party being steeped in so much controversy about its past paramilitary connections, and vote for them anyway based on policy concerns.

Like, how does anyone look at this and not say "If people are willing to overlook news stories like this just so they can vote for a party which claims to have a desire to destroy the status quo, we have really, really failed this entire demographic of people that they feel so desperate as to be willing to do this"?

That's the part I always fail to understand. You all believe every allegation made against Sinn Fein, or at least believe that such allegations should rule a party out of being in power. Yet large, vast swathes of at least 2-3 generations of young Irish people are willing to overlook these controversies and vote for them anyway.

How is it that anyone can avoid the logical next conclusion, which is "maybe our policies and our attitude has genuinely harmed these people and their prospects to such a great extent that they're desperate and willing to try anything to get us out of power"? How do you avoid coming to that conclusion, when you can see with your own eyes that so many people are willing to vote for a party which in your eyes is so unpalatable? If you believe SF to be unpalatable, and you don't deny that young people have been voting for them in their droves, then how can you not also question whether maybe, just maybe, we have a legitimate point to make about the current status quo being utterly unbearable for us?

FrancieBrady

Truthvader wrote: »

Nothing I can add to this thread could make the point more clearly than your failure to see anything wrong

I'll ask again.

What did SF do wrong here?

Truthvader

FrancieBrady wrote: »

'Rat cunning'...that's a fairly exceptional attempt to dehumanise somebody who is willing to debate with you.

What did SF do wrong here?
Can you answer the question asked here?

Nothing I can add to this thread could make the point more clearly than your failure to see anything wrong

FrancieBrady

Truthvader wrote: »

Keep going. The difficulty is that you and your fellow Sinn Fein /IRA cheerleaders fail to see that they did a single thing wrong since 1969. Any wonder Headquarters are asking you to stand down. Someone of some kind of rat cunning has some vague understanding that your justifications and equivocations are actually damaging "the movement"

And no,the Guards are not perfect but they are probably the best police force in any jurisdiction I can think of. In general they do their best to keep the public safe at very considerable personal risk. In contrast your heroes set out everyday to deliberately murder and mutilate random people until they got what they wanted. And its all someone elses fault. Anyway keep going all publicity iserves to remind everyone who and what they are.

'Rat cunning'...that's a fairly exceptional attempt to dehumanise somebody who is willing to debate with you.

What did SF do wrong here?
Can you answer the question asked here?

Truthvader

FrancieBrady wrote: »

What did SF do wrong here?

I'm failing to see that they did a single thing wrong from the get go in Feb 2017

Keep going. The difficulty is that you and your fellow Sinn Fein /IRA cheerleaders fail to see that they did a single thing wrong since 1969. Any wonder Headquarters are asking you to stand down. Someone of some kind of rat cunning has some vague understanding that your justifications and equivocations are actually damaging "the movement"

And no,the Guards are not perfect but they are probably the best police force in any jurisdiction I can think of. In general they do their best to keep the public safe at very considerable personal risk. In contrast your heroes set out everyday to deliberately murder and mutilate random people until they got what they wanted. And its all someone elses fault. Anyway keep going all publicity iserves to remind everyone who and what they are.

FrancieBrady

Superfoods wrote: »

So now according to Francie the problem is the Garda and PSNI

So why don’t we just say everyone and everything is wrong except SF/PIRA and Francie, might be an easier starting point

What did SF do wrong here?

I'm failing to see that they did a single thing wrong from the get go in Feb 2017

joeguevara

Deleted User wrote: »

These being gaurds who have had endless tribunals and lurch from one diaster controversy to another as long as i can remember

How many people did they lie about breathlising....wasnt it 500K more they claimed,than breathlising kits existed :pac:??

There is the Morris Tribunal and the Disclosures Tribunal. Has there been any others?

[Deleted User]

Truthvader wrote: »

Think many many more people have been "scarred" by their dealings with Sinn Fein IRA. Anyway as ever you will equivocate and justify any and all savagery and criminality. I leave it to other posters to decide whether the guards are more trustworthy that Gerry, Mary Lou, Slab and the rest of your heroes

These being gaurds who have had endless tribunals and lurch from one diaster controversy to another as long as i can remember

How many people did they lie about breathlising....wasnt it 500K more they claimed,than breathlising kits existed :pac:??

Superfoods

So now according to Francie the problem is the Garda and PSNI

So why don’t we just say everyone and everything is wrong except SF/PIRA and Francie, might be an easier starting point

FrancieBrady

Truthvader wrote: »

Think many many more people have been "scarred" by their dealings with Sinn Fein IRA. Anyway as ever you will equivocate and justify any and all savagery and criminality. I leave it to other posters to decide whether the guards are more trustworthy that Gerry, Mary Lou, Slab and the rest of your heroes

Of course you take any challenge to your bias as an endorsement of 'savagery and criminality'...how pathetically predictable is that one?

The fact remains that the Gardai and the PSNI are not trusted by sections of the community justifiably or not.

Will this betrayal of a fundamental trust speed up the healing of that rift in confidence?
No it won't and it may stop people coming forward in this case...an ongoing case.

If you cannot see the seriousness of this, that is your problem. Thankfully this witness has already helped the Gardai.

Truthvader

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Do you remember a victim of heinous sexual abuse saying she went to the police about it and that the police were more interested in the accused's brother?

Do you even begin to give any thought to a scenario that some people are scarred by their dealings with the security forces on both sides of the border and how police have dealt with them?

Think many many more people have been "scarred" by their dealings with Sinn Fein IRA. Anyway as ever you will equivocate and justify any and all savagery and criminality. I leave it to other posters to decide whether the guards are more trustworthy that Gerry, Mary Lou, Slab and the rest of your heroes

FrancieBrady

Truthvader wrote: »

Only in the twisted compromised world of Sinn Fein is there a double think requirement before assisting the Guards. No decent person has to wonder whether it would be alright. Because of course it might be OK to murder a guard. And they still tell us there is no fear in the community.

Do you remember a victim of heinous sexual abuse saying she went to the police about it and that the police were more interested in the accused's brother?

Do you even begin to give any thought to a scenario that some people are scarred by their dealings with the security forces on both sides of the border and how police have dealt with them?

Truthvader

Only in the twisted compromised world of Sinn Fein is there a double think requirement before assisting the Guards. No decent person has to wonder whether it would be alright. Because of course it might be OK to murder a guard. And they still tell us there is no fear in the community.

Colonel Claptrap

Gerry Adams gave the nod before the witness made a statement to Gardai.

Bizarre situation.

hatrickpatrick

markodaly wrote: »

You admire them for 'floating like the wind' but then want them to stick to their policies which... float like the wind? Let me say to you, you will be disappointed.

The housing crisis is only going to get worse under a neoliberal government, so I doubt the wind will be changing direction any time soon.

The problem with left-wing politics in Ireland is that they over-promise with easy solutions but when in power, realise its a lot more difficult in reality.
Do you honestly think if Labour could deliver on everything they campaigned for in 2011, they would have? It is not as if they decided in some smoke-filled room the night of the election to just abandon everything, they did what they could, which was actually a lot, but in a coalition, one has to compromise.

They chose to stick by FG after FG immediately regressed to the same FF-style cronyism and corruption which they made opposition to a core tenet of their 2011 election manifesto. This was when I first became disillusioned with both parties. What was unforgivable for me was Labour sticking by Alan Shatter during the various justice scandals of 2014 in which Shatter made it abundantly clear that as minister for justice, he was part of the "blue wall of silence". He should have been sacked immediately and Labour should have insisted on this if they had the slightest shred of integrity.

The Greens are learning that too and are running scared.
It looks like they could jump before the year is out and where will that leave us? Another election, is that what you want?

God yes. I would relish another opportunity to get FF and FG out of power altogether, especially having come so, so close just months ago.

Rents have actually tumbled a lot the past 6 months

This is an extremely temporary COVID-related situation and we all know it won't last.

but anyway, this bit is a highly simplistic take on the situation. One would swear even if he above is true, that that is all FG ever did.
Issues with social housing can be put squarely at the feet of the LA's, especially in Dublin. How did DCC do the past 5 years or so?

DCC repeatedly voted to build more social housing in the biggest public estate in Dublin and were blocked by FG, who wanted more private housing sold at full market prices on the site. Once again, FG's "property as an asset and not as a home" ideology is the problem.

I highly doubt this, I really do. Not every young person lives in inner city Dublin by the way, so perhaps you are getting a slant on what 'some' you people say.

Most young people aspire to live in an urban area at least for a time, and all urban areas in Ireland are experiencing obnoxiously high rents.

No doubt that younger people are feeling the pinch more than older people. I don't deny that, but again this is bigger issue in the Western world than what is happening in Ireland.

If you don't deny it, then why are you surprised that we're voting left wing? Why does this have to be spelled out for you?

The issue of housing is complex and is one faced by pretty much every country. If you want to talk about that per say, we can.

Allowing existing property to be perpetually used as an investment vehicle is the central problem. The idea that I can hoard excess property even though I already have somewhere to live, for the sole purpose of price gouging, and this is considered morally acceptable in our society, that's the problem. The idea that housing shouldn't be considered a public service like healthcare, education, etc - that's the problem. That will never change under a government who are fully bought in to the "using the purchase of property to store wealth and fund one's retirement - f*ck the younger generation and how this utterly destroys their quality of life" model of what housing is and what housing should be.

The idea that there's no such thing whatsoever as social responsibility, and that if I have the money to bulk-buy housing when I already have somewhere to live - just so I can charge through the f*cking nose for someone else who needs somewhere to live and exploit their desperation - that's the problem. Hoarding during a crisis is wrong. Using housing as a means of storing wealth is wrong. Hell, as far as I'm concerned, the entire concept of "passive income" is itself detrimental to society. But none of these issues will ever be on the table for discussion, or within what's known as the "Overton Window", as long as "I'm alright Jack" neoliberalism remains the dominant political force in the West.

Hence I and many other young people support left wing politicians who might change this entire paradigm and be willing to look at changing how society operates from the ground up, root and branch. Starting with the repugnant idea that hoarding during a crisis isn't something one should be considered and out-and-out [i[asshole[/i] for choosing to engage in, out of pure, selfish, heartless, unempathetic greed.

One of the things I can identify with, is that the wheels of government just turns too slowly, much too slowly. MM mentioned this in a Sunday Indo interview some months back, as to things that needs to change. But that requires some serous reform of the Civil Service and make it both accountable and fit for the 21st century.

Do you see this happening under the cronyist "jobs for the boys" culture which pervades both Fine Gael and Fianna Fail?

Now if SF or others had an actual plan to overhaul the CS and make it thus, then I would listen, but all I hear from them is that everything is wrong because of said minister, when in reality, the minister is just the public face of a Dept. and really not much would change if this person is different.

That's a fair comment and I'd like to see that too. But as far as I'm concerned, overhauling the very basic tenets of what counts as "productive" economic activity has to come first. Owning an excess of something that somebody else built doesn't count as a "job", and the people who do it are ruining the lives of thousands of other human beings. It's time governments stopped pandering to them.

Being a landlord during a housing crisis is no different, morally speaking, to bulk-buying PPE at the beginning of a worldwide pandemic just so you can sell it on at a massive, price-gouging premium. Everyone was united as one when it came to condemning that, and as far as I'm concerned the only reason it's controversial to say the same about property is because so many people have skin in that game and don't like being told that they should be ashamed of themselves for forcing an entire generation of young people to fund their retirement through utterly obscene rent prices.

That's why I'm voting left. I don't just want to see tweaks made to the system, the system itself is the problem and it has to be fundamentally replaced with something which works better. The current situation throughout the west is one of using ownership and hoarding of land and property as a means of pursuing a gigantic, inter-generational transfer of income from young to old. It's wrong, it's immoral, it's obscene, and it has to stop.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

No, the fact it was necessary is the problem.

It was felt necessary by a single person.

The stretching and stretching to make this something it isn't, is hilarious.

Again...any kudos for the councillor for doing what he did...give the Gardai 'the break' in the case?

Dum dee dum dee dum...I would say we will wait for that.

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Some members of all parties are not 'normal' blanch. Want to compare?

The elected SF member did as he should here and gave Gardai the break in the case. Any kudos for him for doing that?

No, the fact it was necessary is the problem.

McMurphy

blanch152 wrote: »

Is this the Fianna Fail thread?

.

Less than five minutes apart.....

Irony much.

blanch152 wrote: »

Barry Cowen was unfit to be a member of government because he wouldn't accept the word of the security forces. Because of the predilections of Sinn Fein members, as pointed out by you, the only logical conclusion is that Sinn Fein, as a party is unfit for government for maybe a generation.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

Thanks for that. At long last, an admission that Sinn Fein members are not normal and that they don't trust the security forces in this State.

Barry Cowen was unfit to be a member of government because he wouldn't accept the word of the security forces. Because of the predilections of Sinn Fein members, as pointed out by you, the only logical conclusion is that Sinn Fein, as a party is unfit for government for maybe a generation.

Some members of all parties are not 'normal' blanch. Want to compare?

The elected SF member did as he should here and gave Gardai the break in the case. Any kudos for him for doing that?

blanch152

jm08 wrote: »

So you must also be turned off by Labour and Fianna Fail (most parties except Fine Gael) who supported a retirement age of 66.

Is this the Fianna Fail thread?

Look, there is hardly a single sensible policy in Sinn Fein's manifesto.

Even if someone could manage to live with the stink of being associated with Sinn Fein and vote for them as persons (which I could never do), most of their policies are absurd and their tax policies are delirious.

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

It isn't in the slightest bit odd. Some of the membership of SF are not 'normal' in the sense that they have come through a conflict/war that put them in a place were they didn't trust the security forces on both sides. That will take maybe a generation to disappear.
I raised this on the Aaron Brady thread but it was decided it was off topic.

I find nothing odd that somebody outside the country would do something like this. The councillor handled it as he should though.

Thanks for that. At long last, an admission that Sinn Fein members are not normal and that they don't trust the security forces in this State.

Barry Cowen was unfit to be a member of government because he wouldn't accept the word of the security forces. Because of the predilections of Sinn Fein members, as pointed out by you, the only logical conclusion is that Sinn Fein, as a party is unfit for government for maybe a generation.

christy c

jm08 wrote: »

So you must also be turned off by Labour and Fianna Fail (most parties except Fine Gael) who supported a retirement age of 66.

Yes, incredibly stupid without any hint of an alternative.

[Deleted User]

jm08 wrote: »

And what does ''where he stood'' mean. As to your 2nd point. I believe both Michelle O'Neill and Gerry Kelly have received death threats from dissident republicans fairly recently.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/sinn-f%C3%A9in-vice-president-michelle-o-neill-targeted-by-dissident-plot-1.4170433?mode=sample&auth-failed=1&pw-origin=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishtimes.com%2Fnews%2Fcrime-and-law%2Fsinn-f%25C3%25A9in-vice-president-michelle-o-neill-targeted-by-dissident-plot-1.4170433

The witness might not of wanted to be seen as a "tout". Remember when McCartney was murdered? A bus load of SF members where in the pub that night and saw nothing because Jock was a "Good Republican".

FrancieBrady

Poor_old_gill wrote: »

Well, I wholeheartedly disagree with you.

I find the fact that such a culture exists within a political party to be extremely worrying

Not my problem if you wish to deny realities.

The post conflict/war reality is that many many people do not trust the security force north and south.

Poor_old_gill

FrancieBrady wrote: »

It isn't in the slightest bit odd. Some of the membership of SF are not 'normal' in the sense that they have come through a conflict/war that put them in a place were they didn't trust the security forces on both sides. That will take maybe a generation to disappear.
I raised this on the Aaron Brady thread but it was decided it was off topic.

I find nothing odd that somebody outside the country would do something like this. The councillor handled it as he should though.

Well, I wholeheartedly disagree with you.

I find the fact that such a culture exists within a political party to be extremely worrying