How will schools be able to go back in September?

Subject choices impact staff at secondary. You've obviously never had to timetable a class. Teachers are at best generally qualifies for 2 subjects at LC and maybe 1/2 at JC. So I'll take my contruction
studies teacher and tell him he's teaching honours Irish and my French teacher who struggled to pass maths in her own LC can take JC maths, also a completely different exam and syllabus to the one she sat.

In LC, they have 3 core (English, Irish and maths), in a big school these will all be split by level. Then they have a modern language usually because it's required by NUIs and sort of by Trinity but it's a bit more nuanced. That leave 3 subjects that are a choice. Many will need one or two of these to be specific to get a particular course, there are set requirements. Also no good telling a kid who's never done woodwork and wanted to do accounting that they have to suck it up and do a subject with no foundation on it. Most parents and kids would rather less time on school than to have to study whatever random subjects get set. Nevermind that 6th, 2nd and 3rd years are already in their options.

Anyone who thinks subject choice is where changed can be made across a school doesn't work in one. I can tell you that

drunkmonkey

jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »

Currently more Dublin accents on the streets in Dingle than local. If they were going to stagger holidays they should have done it before now.

People descending on holiday locations could be stopped by county lockdowns.

I was heading for lahinch (only crossing one country border) yesterday and haven't seen the motorway as busy since lockdown, nothing but Dublin regs, i'll be rattling them later in Kennys with my smokers cough, they'll all be high tailing it out of here at first light tomorrow

Blondini

meeeeh wrote: »

Anyway I got email from school telling us that they will be able to implement social distancing measures in all classes and that they will see them at the end of August.

I'd put the accuracy of that email up there with the email I got about winning the Nigerian national lottery...

am_zarathustra wrote: »

Subject choices impact staff at secondary. You've obviously never had to timetable a class. Teachers are at best generally qualifies for 2 subjects at LC and maybe 1/2 at JC. So I'll take my contruction
studies teacher and tell him he's teaching honours Irish and my French teacher who struggled to pass maths in her own LC can take JC maths, also a completely different exam and syllabus to the one she sat.

In LC, they have 3 core (English, Irish and maths), in a big school these will all be split by level. Then they have a modern language usually because it's required by NUIs and sort of by Trinity but it's a bit more nuanced. That leave 3 subjects that are a choice. Many will need one or two of these to be specific to get a particular course, there are set requirements. Also no good telling a kid who's never done woodwork and wanted to do accounting that they have to suck it up and do a subject with no foundation on it. Most parents and kids would rather less time on school than to have to study whatever random subjects get set. Nevermind that 6th, 2nd and 3rd years are already in their options.

Anyone who thinks subject choice is where changed can be made across a school doesn't work in one. I can tell you that

That would seem like a bizarre strategy to take to get the French teacher to teach maths. They must've high at that meeting.

Mixed ability classes may have to be considered in some schools who current stream them by ability. That will present more opportunities for peer learning. Nui and trinity accepted made up grades this year and if the exams fail to go ahead next year they'll have no option but to accept made up grades next year too. But they have shown so far they can be flexible when needed and are willing to cooperate.

Alrigghtythen wrote: »

So the movement of people throughout the entire country is reduced. Every one heading off for a week in killarney at the same time isnt ideal.

https://www.expatica.com/nl/education/children-education/school-holidays-in-the-netherlands-70515/

School holidays in the Netherlands are set by the Ministry of Education Culture and Science. All Dutch schools have five holidays throughout the year. These are autumn (one week), Christmas (two weeks), spring (one week), May (one week, usually spread across April/May) and summer (six weeks).

The Christmas and May holidays are the same across the country, but the other holidays are staggered across three regions: north, central and south. This helps authorities better manage the holiday traffic. The regions are divided as follows:

North region: Drenthe, Flevoland (all municipalities except Zeewolde), Friesland, Groningen, North Holland, Overijssel, Utrecht (only Eemnes and Abcoude)

Central region: Flevoland (only Zeewolde), North Brabant (Werkendam except the Hank and Dussen cores, and Woudrichem), Utrecht (all municipalities except Eemnes and Abcoude), South Holland

South region: Limburg, North Brabant (all municipalities except Woudrichem and the nuclei of Sleeuwijk, Nieuwendijk, and Werkendam in the municipality of Werkendam), Zeeland

The municipalities in the province of Gelderland are split across the three regions. You can see a breakdown of these on the Dutch government website.

Funny how it appears that we have two very vocal posters with knowledge of the Dutch system.

Alrigghtythen wrote: »

That would seem like a bizarre strategy to take to get the French teacher to teach maths. They must've high at that meeting.

Mixed ability classes may have to be considered in some schools who current stream them by ability. That will present more opportunities for peer learning. Nui and trinity accepted made up grades this year and if the exams fail to go ahead next year they'll have no option but to accept made up grades next year too. But they have shown so far they can be flexible when needed and are willing to cooperate.

Obviously you don't know that course content is different between the streams for some subjects.

Alrigghtythen wrote: »

That would seem like a bizarre strategy to take to get the French teacher to teach maths. They must've high at that meeting.

Mixed ability classes may have to be considered in some schools who current stream them by ability. That will present more opportunities for peer learning. Nui and trinity accepted made up grades this year and if the exams fail to go ahead next year they'll have no option but to accept made up grades next year too. But they have shown so far they can be flexible when needed and are willing to cooperate.

As you are not familiar with timetabling I'll further explain, what would you like me to do with my French teacher? If her aren't offering french. Where would you like me to find imaginary Irish teachers? There are 28 hours of tuition for every student, 21.20 class contact for every staff member. Current hiring means it is designed so we have subject specialism suitable to you the needs of our school for the subjects chosen, with a small bit of leeway and clever manipulation needed at the end.

If you think honours maths can be taught alongside pass maths then this conversation is probably pointless. I've done it with extra after school classes at JC but at LC it's just not possible. Standards will drop. For English and Irish even the texts are different. They wouldn't have a clue what's going on. I would say up too the end of 2nd year you could avoid streaming the core group, it's ok to differentiate til then and it gives kids a chance to settle in and the teachers a good chunk of time to assess interest and ability. After than its not suitable.

In most schools the easiest thing for Lc would be to stream the base classes on English maybe, though maths might work. Most of my English class were also in the top maths class. Limit movement. The issue is we all did a different language, 50/50 split in my school. We then all did different options, I did all three sciences, my best friends siting beside me did Music, Accounting and Physics.........no chance of staying put.

I agree solutions have to be found to movement in schools, I'm flat out thinking of different options and what base class configurations will allow the most room and the least movement. Subject choice is just not a runner.

FishOnABike

Alrigghtythen wrote: »

Your school might have to limit subject choices

Not practical when you think it through. Do we just limit secondary schools to Irish, English and Maths. Only sit three subjects in the Leaving Certificate and convince all Irish and foreign third level institutions to drop their entry requirements (both overall and specific subject results)?

Even Junior Certificate students would have restricted subject availability percolate through to future years. Do we expect existing third level entry requirements to be set aside for the next six years or so?

deiseindublin

Lots of waffle but still no list of subjects to be dropped?

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

So a family that lives on the Rossie side of Athlone can't go on holidays with their cousins that live on the Westmeath side?

It was always like that and still is where I come from. Winter holidays were staggered by country basically split in two. Less crowded if you are into skiing and similar. There was never much fuss around that.

FishOnABike wrote: »

Not practical when you think it through. Do we just limit secondary schools to Irish, English and Maths. Only sit three subjects in the Leaving Certificate and convince all Irish and foreign third level institutions to drop their entry requirements (both overall and specific subject results)?

Even Junior Certificate students would have restricted subject availability percolate through to future years. Do we expect existing third level entry requirements to be set aside for the next six years or so?

I nit sure why schools would have to limit to those 3 subjects only. They will need to assess if they can accommodate their full range of choices offered precovid

meeeeh wrote: »

It was always like that and still is where I come from. Winter holidays were staggered by country basically split in two. Less crowded if you are into skiing and similar. There was never much fuss around that.

Any sanctions if you took holidays outside of these 'windows'?

Alrigghtythen wrote: »

I nit sure why schools would have to limit to those 3 subjects only. They will need to assess if they can accommodate their full range of choices offered precovid

Let's tell the child who has done Spanish so far that they have to take French instead for leaving cert 2021.

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Let's tell the child who has done Spanish so far that they have to take French instead for leaving cert 2021.

Why would they be told they have to do French? They might just be told the school doesnt offer spanish anymore because it cant accommodate it.

Blondini wrote: »

I'd put the accuracy of that email up there with the email I got about winning the Nigerian national lottery...

Yes someone on the Internet telling me it isn't so is so much more accurate...

You don't need to believe me or the principal of the school my kids go to. We are periodically contacted by the school and informed what needs to be done. Some who offered help will be contacted in August to do so, the rest of us got the book lists and instructions around changed uniform policy because it will need to be washed more often.

I think you just don't want to accept that there are schools who are quietly doing what needs to be done and not sticking their head into the sand wailing what can't be done.

mirrorwall14

meeeeh wrote: »

Yes someone on the Internet telling me it isn't so is so much more accurate...

You don't need to believe me or the principal of the school my kids go to. We are periodically contacted by the school and informed what needs to be done. Some who offered help will be contacted in August to do so, the rest of us got the book lists and instructions around changed uniform policy because it will need to be washed more often.

I think you just don't want to accept that there are schools who are quietly doing what needs to be done and not sticking their head into the sand wailing what can't be done.

Primary or secondary? What age group? That’s insanely fast considering most places are still interpreting the document and appointing Covid officers

helpful

Is there anyway of getting secondary schools in for half days where they attend English, Irish and maths classes and then do option subjects online? I know it would need a lot of investment but there seems to be a lot of money pumped in to education anyway.
More practical subjects may need to be done in schools maybe one afternoon a week but subjects like accounting etc could be taught online. Schools could work together if needs be so that there are no timetable issues.
I know this would have a few flaws but it might be safer?

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Any sanctions if you took holidays outside of these 'windows'?

It depends. Some missed a bit but it would be more likely kids involved in some sport. One of my class mates was good swimmer and she would be off for training trips and competitions.

If you were not missing much the school would let you off if parents had some exceptional requst but it wasn't common at all.

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

Primary or secondary? What age group? That’s insanely fast considering most places are still interpreting the document and appointing Covid officers

Primary and advantage is that classrooms are fairly spacious for all age groups.

mirrorwall14

meeeeh wrote: »

Primary and advantage is that classrooms are fairly spacious for all age groups.

Ah. Makes more sense. I just couldn’t see how a second level would be that confident this quick unless exceptionally lucky

ldy4mxonucwsq6

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

Primary or secondary? What age group? That’s insanely fast considering most places are still interpreting the document and appointing Covid officers

Most schools will have known roughly what was coming down the line prior to the plan being published. They would have also known the likely short time frame involved too.

Some have been making preparations since before the summer holidays.

They will have been checking the lay of the land, capacity, class sizes, sanitisation locations and timetabling options well before DOE got the finger out.

Option subjects often only have a double and a single so one afternoon a week wouldnt make much difference. I think the idea of having the core three in mornings is great. Only issue would be teacher availability, but it could be done for senior cycle, and then forgo streaming until the start of third year. Every school will need to consider its own situation and, to be honest again, a huge amount will be decided by what teachers they have in Urban areas. I suspect my own preferred plan wouldnt work in our school because we are down to one Irish teacher again with zero applicants.....again

am_zarathustra wrote: »

Option subjects often only have a double and a single so one afternoon a week wouldnt make much difference. I think the idea of having the core three in mornings is great. Only issue would be teacher availability, but it could be done for senior cycle, and then forgo streaming until the start of third year. Every school will need to consider its own situation and, to be honest again, a huge amount will be decided by what teachers they have in Urban areas. I suspect my own preferred plan wouldnt work in our school because we are down to one Irish teacher again with zero applicants.....again

But the zero applicants is caused by the unions are commented here by a poster ðŸ˜‚

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

But the zero applicants is caused by the unions are commented here by a poster &#55357;&#56834;

The unions hate Irish, MFL, maths and physics but love English, Art and Geography.....but they really hate Home Ec in Urban areas

Mad stuff regarding hiring on here. There's a crisis because successive governments did stupid things they were repreatidly warned would lead to a recruitment crisis. Maybe this quagmire will shine a light on it but I don't think it will.

I know when I was in school my parents wouldn't have been happy with my 5th year honours Irish class being taught by some lad with a half a year of Irish in his degree but this seems to be acceptable now.

am_zarathustra wrote: »

Option subjects often only have a double and a single so one afternoon a week wouldnt make much difference. I think the idea of having the core three in mornings is great. Only issue would be teacher availability, but it could be done for senior cycle, and then forgo streaming until the start of third year. Every school will need to consider its own situation and, to be honest again, a huge amount will be decided by what teachers they have in Urban areas. I suspect my own preferred plan wouldnt work in our school because we are down to one Irish teacher again with zero applicants.....again

The might need the rooms to accommodate students core subjects, therefore may not be able to accommodate the double or single one afternoon/ wek depending on the individual school.

Murple

meeeeh wrote: »

Primary and advantage is that classrooms are fairly spacious for all age groups.

It's a bit unfair then to make out that other schools haven't announced their intentions to parents because they are just sitting there 'wailing that it can't be done'. In many schools it actually can't be done as they are in very cramped conditions.
I saw a video produced by the principal of a school for parents showing all the classrooms set up with plenty of space between the desks and a large area cordoned off for the teacher. All rooms still had storage furniture in place and still there was enough room. He showed some classrooms that were quite cramped but said they intended to take 6 pupils from each of 3 rooms and create a new class. It was all very impressive and well done to them. He had a lot in his favour though- a very large number of very spacious classrooms with ensuite toilets, 20-24 pupils per class, entrances to the school in various locations, new buildings underway, large open plan yard, single floor school...
By comparison, my school will be attempting to fit class sizes of 28-30 into rooms about the size of the smaller rooms this principal was intending to take 6 out of. We dont have spare rooms. About one quarter of our rooms have ensuite toilets with the rest sharing 3 toilet blocks. We have 2 small yards and 2 accessible entrance doors (we have other doors for emergency exits but they wouldn't be suitable for children coming in each morning.) We have 2 floors in the school so the added complication of shared staircases. We also have a series of adjoining classrooms so again, added complication.
I hope the parents of our school aren't judging us against the school down the road who have a new build with plenty of space, doors from each class direct to the yards, single floor, wide corridors etc. as it will take longer for us to produce a safe plan as we have more to consider and work around.

Murple wrote: »

It's a bit unfair then to make out that other schools haven't announced their intentions to parents because they are just sitting there 'wailing that it can't be done'. In many schools it actually can't be done as they are in very cramped conditions.
I saw a video produced by the principal of a school for parents showing all the classrooms set up with plenty of space between the desks and a large area cordoned off for the teacher. All rooms still had storage furniture in place and still there was enough room. He showed some classrooms that were quite cramped but said they intended to take 6 pupils from each of 3 rooms and create a new class. It was all very impressive and well done to them. He had a lot in his favour though- a very large number of very spacious classrooms with ensuite toilets, 20-24 pupils per class, entrances to the school in various locations, new buildings underway, large open plan yard, single floor school...
By comparison, my school will be attempting to fit class sizes of 28-30 into rooms about the size of the smaller rooms this principal was intending to take 6 out of. We dont have spare rooms. About one quarter of our rooms have ensuite toilets with the rest sharing 3 toilet blocks. We have 2 small yards and 2 accessible entrance doors (we have other doors for emergency exits but they wouldn't be suitable for children coming in each morning.) We have 2 floors in the school so the added complication of shared staircases. We also have a series of adjoining classrooms so again, added complication.
I hope the parents of our school aren't judging us against the school down the road who have a new build with plenty of space, doors from each class direct to the yards, single floor, wide corridors etc. as it will take longer for us to produce a safe plan as we have more to consider and work around.

That's fair enough but you will be judged at your approach trying to find some sort of solutions. Just to point out that kids school is not a new build and has only two entrances. We will be also informed about actual safe plan at a later date and school secretary will be available a week before to answer all the questions. I think nobody is stupid enough to think everyone is in the same position and that everything can be implemented in three days. However clear communication about what is being done and when is being done is very much appreciated.

deiseindublin

Alrigghtythen wrote: »

Why would they be told they have to do French? They might just be told the school doesnt offer spanish anymore because it cant accommodate it.

You're quite obviosuly an expert on all timetabling and curricular changes from your many many comments to date, but can you please, for the umpteenth time tell us which subjects the local school are to drop?

hmmm

I wouldn't have much time for Breda O'Brien, but her article in the IT yestorday was spot on. There's too much emphasis on changes to schools, and too little emphasis on the responsibility of the community to keep cases low to make school reopening quicker. We could do with a Leo type statement from Michael to get the message across.