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ESB eCars

liamog

Details from the dail on the eCars €10,000,000 expansion programme.

The key elements include six high speed charging hubs on motorways capable of charging eight vehicles simultaneously; 16 high speed charging hubs capable of charging four vehicles simultaneously; additional high power chargers at 34 current 50 kW locations; upgrading over 50 22 kW chargers to 50 kW, and replacing up to 264 locations with 528 charge points at the pre-existing pilot grade of 22 kW to next generation high reliability models.

https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/question/2019-01-24/10/?fbclid=IwAR1eGLQjNFuywCoaB__FJADns7gNOD09DaR9XLueHAKZ8vljfd-kL-_LpDs

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KCross

Cyrus wrote: »

You’d imagine as range increases then the use case for public chargers will decrease , not disappear but certainly decrease.

If you have more evs and say 600km real world range the likelihood is that anywhere you are visiting will have a charger anyway and if not 600 gets you there and back to a lot of places in Ireland

Thats true but as we move to having 100s of thousands of EV's it will counteract that decrease.

And not everyone will be able to afford a 60kWh+ EV or they just have a smaller car (Honda e, eUP, Mini etc) by choice. They will still require access.

Its hard to predict exactly how the next 10 years will pan out in relation to battery sizes as new battery tech is required. Ireland being as small as it is though makes it less of an issue.

MJohnston

unkel wrote: »

It's not proprietary, it's CCS. Which is the only standard of fast charging we have in Europe going forward.

Tesla controls who can charge on them though, same as the ESB, Ionity and all others control who can charge on their CCS chargers. Which are also non-propietary

Just like Earlsfort Terrace being free parking on Sundays, Tesla superchargers very likely are proprietary. The CCS socket isn't, but that's just one small component of the whole V3 design. If someone else sold a charger that was identical to the V3, they'd get sued. That's proprietary. And Ionity chargers are very likely proprietary too.

Just saying, if you're gonna roll out the winky emoji, you've gotta get it right!

Anyway, you know that what KCross means is that the Tesla supercharger network is an exclusive one.

ELM327

To be absolutely pedantic about it, Tesla V3 CCS stalls use a modified type of CCS2 v2 and not the standard.

The connector is ever so slightly different, as is the communications protocol (hence the issues with early M3s failing to charge on some non Tesla CCS stalls).
The reason for the modification? CCS2 v2 goes up to 500A max. Tesla charge at current (pardon the pun) peak of 671a. And probably higher on the cybertruck, roadster and semi

KCross

ELM327 wrote: »

To be absolutely pedantic about it, Tesla V3 CCS stalls use a modified type of CCS2 v2 and not the standard.

The connector is ever so slightly different, as is the communications protocol (hence the issues with early M3s failing to charge on some non Tesla CCS stalls).
The reason for the modification? CCS2 v2 goes up to 500A max. Tesla charge at current (pardon the pun) peak of 671a. And probably higher on the cybertruck, roadster and semi

What is the physical difference? Does it just have thicker cabling etc to handle higher currents or are there differences in the pins too?

[Deleted User]

Cyrus wrote: »

You’d imagine as range increases then the use case for public chargers will decrease , not disappear but certainly decrease.

If you have more evs and say 600km real world range the likelihood is that anywhere you are visiting will have a charger anyway and if not 600 gets you there and back to a lot of places in Ireland

Charger use decrease ? not likely, it will explode with more and more electrics hitting the roads.

There are plenty of People in apartments that may want an EV and will have no choice but to use the Public network.

Having 60+ Kwh is grand but as more People take their electrics away for weekends etc this will mean they need to use Public charging, whether you have 30, 60 or 100 Kwh you will still need to charge just as you need to re-fuel your ICE when you're away.

I regularly see Konas and Model S at the Carlow charger and sometimes queuing, this is not acceptable, it wouldn't be acceptable for ICE drivers to have to queue so why is it for EV owners ? they had ample time since 2010 to get the infrastructure sorted they wasted valuable time both the ESB and the Government.

The Public infrastructure is the single greatest thing making me thing twice about ditching my Rex, it's still years away from being what it should be, at this rate it will take 10 years to get where we should be today not where we should be in 10 years, something has got to change, EV is the future yet most garage owners are not interested in installing chargers even considering there are more and more electrics on the road each year.

ELM327

The Teslas queuing could be for the free juice, if the company is paying the ecars bill.

[Deleted User]

ELM327 wrote: »

The Teslas queuing could be for the free juice, if the company is paying the ecars bill.

I'm not sure anyone would go out of their way to get off the M9 all the way to Carlow for a few quids worth of juice.

liamog

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I'm not sure anyone would go out of their way to get off the M9 all the way to Carlow for a few quids worth of juice.

People will spend 30 mins charging an Outlander when its cheaper to put petrol in it, there seems to be alot of people who put a very low value on their own time.

[Deleted User]

liamog wrote: »

People will spend 30 mins charging an Outlander when its cheaper to put petrol in it, there seems to be alot of people who put a very low value on their own time.

Even if true, we still got a poor public charging Network.

kanuseeme

liamog wrote: »

People will spend 30 mins charging an Outlander when its cheaper to put petrol in it, there seems to be alot of people who put a very low value on their own time.

Electric is cheaper than petrol, but I would agree a lot of people have very low value on their own time,

buying a car that has to be charged every 200-450 km your going to be at some stage stuck waiting at a charger unlike an outlander or i3 rex and some of the newer merc's coming, one can simple keep going and charge when its convenient,

:D:D

liamog

Mod Note: Moved the discussion re alt fuels to own thread https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2058101155

Black_Knight

kanuseeme wrote: »

Electric is cheaper than petrol, but I would agree a lot of people have very low value on their own time, buying a car that has to be charged every 200-450 km your going to be at some stage stuck waiting at a charger unlike an outlander or i3 rex and some of the newer merc's coming, one can simple keep going and charge when its convenient, :D:D

I'd hazard a guess that with a 400km range EV, you'd spend less time waiting to charge/waiting while charging than you would waste going to a petrol station/filling up with petrol. (I say "going to a petrol station" because for me at least I never just happened to be at a petrol station, I always detoured to get to one when I needed a fill).

kanuseeme

Black_Knight wrote: »

I'd hazard a guess that with a 400km range EV, you'd spend less time waiting to charge/waiting while charging than you would waste going to a petrol station/filling up with petrol. (I say "going to a petrol station" because for me at least I never just happened to be at a petrol station, I always detoured to get to one when I needed a fill).

Sure but a 400 km car costs what? 37k to 100k new, 2nd hand tesla 30 k, less if your lucky, and then worry about screens/door handles and computers etc.

Will a 400km car will do 400km in 5 years time?

Even if I had one, I would not keep it charged to 100% all of time, its a bad thing right? So Its now a 320 km car in the morning after charging to 80%, my regular driving is not much 40 km or so, now I am home with 280 km so that means any call/need from work or family means I need a charge, as I am 160 km from anything of importance.
With the present state of the network that could mean 30 minutes or more I would not have or care to waste.

I see the benefits of BEV but most of you with one also have a 2nd car to fall back on, I don't.

I always have enough petrol in my car to get me to a 24 hour petrol station and would pass by them not go to them, last time I put petrol in was in April a whole 25 euros worth, with 11 L still left in it ATM.

Right now I am going to town, while she is in lidl I am going to charge for 25 minutes or so and then home all for the pricely sum of 1.80 euro if some one is charging, I am down to 8 liters. fingers crossed

:D:D

MJohnston

We’re a BEV-only household and it completely works for us. My second car is my bicycle.

But then we got a BEV for environmental and health reasons (not breathing fuel fumes, not emitting fumes, etc), so we don’t mind the charging stops on longer journeys at all.

Plus we have a kid, so it’s impossible to not stop at a service station at least once on longer journeys too.

ELM327

KCross wrote: »

What is the physical difference? Does it just have thicker cabling etc to handle higher currents or are there differences in the pins too?

I am given to understand that one of the control pins is slightly different.
This caused the initial issues with non Tesla CCS as the comms between the car and the charger was too "noisy"

ELM327

KCross wrote: »

What is the physical difference? Does it just have thicker cabling etc to handle higher currents or are there differences in the pins too?

I am given to understand that one of the control pins is slightly different.
This caused the initial issues with non Tesla CCS as the comms between the car and the charger was too "noisy"

Black_Knight

kanuseeme wrote: »

Sure but a 400 km car costs what? 37k to 100k new, 2nd hand tesla 30 k, less if your lucky, and then worry about screens/door handles and computers etc.

Will a 400km car will do 400km in 5 years time?

Even if I had one, I would not keep it charged to 100% all of time, its a bad thing right? So Its now a 320 km car in the morning after charging to 80%, my regular driving is not much 40 km or so, now I am home with 280 km so that means any call/need from work or family means I need a charge, as I am 160 km from anything of importance.
With the present state of the network that could mean 30 minutes or more I would not have or care to waste.

I see the benefits of BEV but most of you with one also have a 2nd car to fall back on, I don't.

I always have enough petrol in my car to get me to a 24 hour petrol station and would pass by them not go to them, last time I put petrol in was in April a whole 25 euros worth, with 11 L still left in it ATM.

Right now I am going to town, while she is in lidl I am going to charge for 25 minutes or so and then home all for the pricely sum of 1.80 euro if some one is charging, I am down to 8 liters. fingers crossed :D:D

Cost is a different talking point. Nothing to do with "wasting time charging/fuelling up".

Your "what if" scenario, is just that. It's not a typical day. Being 160km from work/family isn't exactly typical either. (Also assumes you arrive and turn around, rather than top up at your destination, though maybe your work brings this scenario).CSO says the average commute is 15km if I remember correctly. Eventually, my point is your setup doesn't sound very typical in Ireland. By your own figures you've only used about 9liters if fuel since April. Hardly the 100s of km you mention.

No one likes wasting time, but my point is that with an EV it's a chunk of time. ICE involves lots of little wastes of time, which I suggest add up to more than what one would experience in a 400km range EV.

For all intents and purposes, we're a 1 car bev household. Our ioniq is our main car, whether going to the shops, or up the country (out of range), and a decent spin. Our second car has been parked up for months, even before the pandemic it was rarely used. Going to declare it off the road when tax expires and if it gets no use, I'll set about convincing the wife we sell it. It would likely correspond with upgrading the ioniq though. 200km is a bit on the low side if it's our only car, especially with growing kids and more staycations on the cards.

Cyrus

We are a one car family and have been for about 7 years now second car just wasn’t getting the use .

First time ev owner so etron 50 is that one car

Will update my post with how we get on on long trips etc

Silent Running

kanuseeme wrote: »

Sure but a 400 km car costs what? 37k to 100k new, 2nd hand tesla 30 k, less if your lucky, and then worry about screens/door handles and computers etc.

Will a 400km car will do 400km in 5 years time?

Even if I had one, I would not keep it charged to 100% all of time, its a bad thing right? So Its now a 320 km car in the morning after charging to 80%, my regular driving is not much 40 km or so, now I am home with 280 km so that means any call/need from work or family means I need a charge, as I am 160 km from anything of importance.
With the present state of the network that could mean 30 minutes or more I would not have or care to waste.

I see the benefits of BEV but most of you with one also have a 2nd car to fall back on, I don't.

I always have enough petrol in my car to get me to a 24 hour petrol station and would pass by them not go to them, last time I put petrol in was in April a whole 25 euros worth, with 11 L still left in it ATM.

Right now I am going to town, while she is in lidl I am going to charge for 25 minutes or so and then home all for the pricely sum of 1.80 euro if some one is charging, I am down to 8 liters. fingers crossed :D:D

BEV is my only car. 80% for me is 380kms.

Even when I had the 28kWh Ioniq I was never caught short of a charge. I will admit that I need to think about it... for a few seconds after I park: does the car need to be plugged in? Nah, be grand.

But then I don't need 320 Kms to get to work and back.

Even if I did, I still have 380Kms at 80%.

I'm done with fossil fuelled cars.

McGiver

unkel wrote:

Nonsense. In most other countries the private sector is doing exactly this. You won't find any state operated network of fast charging stations in the Netherlands, a country years ahead of us when it comes to EVs and their infrastructure. There are fast charging hubs everywhere and no queuing either.

KCross wrote:

The reality is that we are a small island with not alot of financial viabiity for operators to spend millions and make a decent profit over the next 5-10 years. Subsidy is required.

Back on topic.

You're both wrong and right.

State initiated networks are quite common, but they are usually tendered out, not state owned, at least not directly. Some subsidies are also common but state-run network is not common at all. That's an Irish niche

The state should just tender the network out to multiple operators to ensure competition and then it doesn't really matter if the operators are private or semi-state as long as they run it right as per the tender.

Now, for KCross, Virta is a quite large charging network provider from Finland. It started by several Finnish energy utility companies coming together to form the company. Finland is much larger than Ireland, but almost the same population, also not that many EVs either. So if it was possible in Finland with lower population density, larger area then it must be possible in Ireland. I don't know if the Finnish state chipped in...

Virta network now have 400 chargers in Finland and its network spans Scandinavia, the Baltic states, Central and Eastern Europe.

https://www.virta.global/company

I was surprised to see a Finnish operator charger in the middle of the main arterial motorway in Czechia, at an actual charging hub, along with other chargers and Tesla superchargers all of that sheltered at a large petrol station. Again, I don't know if the installation involved state subsidy, but the chargers are there available as a service at a cost, and that's in a country with half the per capita EVs than Ireland and lower price level so one would say Ireland would have higher business potential and feasibility.

liamog

McGiver wrote: »

State initiated networks are quite common, but they are usually tendered out, not state owned, at least not directly. Some subsidies are also common but state-run network is not common at all. That's an Irish niche

You'll have to point out the state run network for me, I've not seen it whilst driving around. Is it hidden behind the eCars network, which has been designed, built and operated by ESB, that state owned enterprise just like Fortum in Norway is a state owned Finnish energy company.

I think if the state (NTA) had had more of say in the design of the network and left the build and operation to ESB we'd be in a much better situation.

[Deleted User]

Back from an Airport run again and stopped in a Mac D, the Lads were hungry, I had the Outlander, it was just easier with luggage, anyway, 2016 Leaf plugged into the 150 Kw and the 50 Kw not in use.

I think the ESB need to educate people more but I think it wouldn't do any good and how would you do it ?

Irishjg

Deleted User wrote: »

2016 Leaf plugged into the 150 Kw and the 50 Kw not in use.

I think the ESB need to educate people more but I think it wouldn't do any good and how would you do it ?

I know there are valid arguments against this, but if the 150kW unit cost more to use I’m pretty sure that would be educational and an effective.
Also I am sorry if I offend anyone but I strongly believe the 150kW rig should be exclusively dual CCS. The second 50kW charger that was removed at Kilcullen could and should have been left there with a Chademo/AC without CCS. Everybody catered for and happy with a nice little hub.

Royale with Cheese

150kw CCS at Kilcullen still not working, tried it earlier. Thankfully didn't actually need any charge, just stopped to see if these things could actually be relied on. I answered that question anyway.

The fact it's not working is one thing, but the app says it's available. You can't rely on that system to plan long journeys if the information they're giving out isn't accurate.

McGiver

Deleted User wrote:

I think the ESB need to educate people more but I think it wouldn't do any good and how would you do it ?

That's going to be sorted by higher price of the 150 kW charger, I hope.

Although, some people are thick regardless...

Can imagine Outlanders plugging into the 150 kW Chademo side. Would like to see how that load balancing works if the Outlander takes 10 kW, I don't think it will leave the 140 kW for the CCS side.

Wouldn't harm testing this in situ - we'd need one Leaf and one Tesla - if it's properly load balanced the Tesla should be taking around 100 kW. If it's not then I'm afraid the Tesla will take only 75 kW (as the charger allegedly comprises of two 75 kW modules).

McGiver

liamog wrote:

You'll have to point out the state run network for me, I've not seen it whilst driving around. Is it hidden behind the eCars network, which has been designed, built and operated by ESB, that state owned enterprise just like Fortum in Norway is a state owned Finnish energy company.

ECARS is a state run company, whatever you call it. They designed the network, they build it and they run it. That's state run in all but the name.

liamog

It's already been confirmed that it's a 75kW split. They'll need to be careful with the pricing, you wouldn't want to be paying extra and get the nerfed speed due to another car connecting.

McGiver

liamog wrote:

It's already been confirmed that it's a 75kW split. They'll need to be careful with the pricing, you wouldn't want to be paying extra and get the nerfed speed due to another car connecting.

Bad. FFS so that means the Chademo side will virtually always waste at least 33% available power allocated to it (Leafs), or the worst case waste 85% power (Outlander).

So how does that charger handle 4 CCS/Chademo connectors???? The tech specs sheet mentions up to 4 connectors.
Does it leave 37.5 kW for each? That's hardly a high powered charger - that's a joke

Irishjg

liamog wrote: »

It's already been confirmed that it's a 75kW split. They'll need to be careful with the pricing, you wouldn't want to be paying extra and get the nerfed speed due to another car connecting.

Good point. Could Ecars bill a lower rate if both sides are being used by two cars. If you are charging solo and availing of the chargers full potential get billed at a higher rate.

McGiver

Irishjg wrote:

I know there are valid arguments against this, but if the 150kW unit cost more to use Iâ€™m pretty sure that would be educational and an effective. Also I am sorry if I offend anyone but I strongly believe the 150kW rig should be exclusively dual CCS. The second 50kW charger that was removed at Kilcullen could and should have been left there with a Chademo/AC without CCS. Everybody catered for and happy with a nice little hub.

That's right.

Erm, yes but the problem is that the triple head is...well...a triple head charger with CCS connector. Wouldn't be surprised if Ecars were unable to configure it.