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How will schools be able to go back in September?

shoppergal

Just wondering if anyone can give any insight into how schools could safely re-open in September?

Everyone I'm talking to is saying they won't be back until September but in my head I'm wondering how they'll re-open even in September? The virus will still be there with a vaccine still months away at that stage.

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caveat emptor

Zahir Bitter Cellist wrote: »

Experts have said that based on the available evidence, the virus is transmitted between people through close contact and droplets, not by airborne transmission.

Airborne transmission is different from droplet transmission.

Do you expect the DOE to reclassify the virus to suit teachers?

Source?
I mean I trust your opinion given that you want your kids back to school.
I do too.
You might want to reference said experts.
We can all spell experts.

Alrigghtythen

caveat emptor wrote: »

This is a novel deadly biosafety level 4 pathogen. Is it a case of share the blame legally?

I've highlighted the relevant part of your post.

Nobody is familiar with this once in a hundred year pandemic. (with exception of some experts)

You can't expect a teacher to come up with ideas to mitigate risk to an airborne pathogen when they've never experienced one and when the "plan" refuses to acknowledge that it is airborne.

They've given the answers in road map.

• Regular and good hand hygiene;
• Good respiratory hygiene and cough etiquette;
• Enhanced cleaning regimes; and
• Maintaining physical distancing in the classroom and within schools;

Teachers role is to identify where these occur in the class room and take steps to reduce the risk. Are they not capable of assessing thier classrooms for

A) placement of sanitizer
B)Spacing & Moving desks to maximise distance
C) Encouraging hygiene through routines
D) identify common touch items for enhanced cleaning
E) with thier colleagues identifying isolation area and a strategy deal with a suspected case
F) work with thier colleagues to establish staggered break times

?

ldy4mxonucwsq6

caveat emptor wrote: »

So health care workers might be classified as having best knowledge and understanding the hazards. Here's how they got on........

look at the cases since last week. 44!
They have PPE and full knowledge of the dangers.
Given the low number of people in hospital currently that's a pretty scary number.
How could your average teacher with limited resources be expected to asses the risk?

When highly trained doctors and nurse and other staff (non frontline) have been given all of the training and the equipment necessary to mitigate the risk,
Are still being exposed?

Maybe its because the risk is much higher for them

ldy4mxonucwsq6

caveat emptor wrote: »

You can't expect a teacher to come up with ideas to mitigate risk to an airborne pathogen when they've never experienced one and when the "plan" refuses to acknowledge that it is airborne.

Experts have said that based on the available evidence, the virus is transmitted between people through close contact and droplets, not by airborne transmission.

Airborne transmission is different from droplet transmission.

Do you expect the DOE to reclassify the virus to suit teachers?

caveat emptor

So health care workers might be classified as having best knowledge and understanding the hazards. Here's how they got on........

look at the cases since last week. 44!
They have PPE and full knowledge of the dangers.
Given the low number of people in hospital currently that's a pretty scary number.
How could your average teacher with limited resources be expected to asses the risk?

When highly trained doctors and nurse and other staff (non frontline) have been given all of the training and the equipment necessary to mitigate the risk,
Are still being exposed?

caveat emptor

Alrigghtythen wrote: »

5.0 Guidance
5.1 Legal basis for Risk Assessment
Section 19, of the Safety, Health and Welfare at Work Act, 2005 requires every employer (and those
who control workplaces to any extent) to identify the hazards at the place of work and to assess the
risk presented by those hazards.
It is also the responsibility of all staff to be aware of hazards and risks in the workplace and take
immediate action to report, reduce or resolve any hazards they observe in everyday practice.
5.2 Consultative Process
Section 26, of the Safety, Health and Welfare at Work Act, 2005 places a duty on the employer to
consult and engage with his or her employees on all matters relating to safety health and welfare
(including risk assessments).

It is widely acknowledged that risk assessments are best conducted by those who have a good
knowledge and understanding of the organisation, work practices and processes (HSG65, 2013;
OHSAS 18001).
A team approach to risk assessment should be adopted, with the involvement of employees who
have practical experience of the particular process or activity being considered in the risk
assessment. These employees will often have the best knowledge and understanding of the
hazards. (HSE, 2003).

The dept sent out a template for each school to conduct a risk assessment. See point 4 on link

https://www.gov.ie/en/publication/744f4-appendices-checklists-and-policies-that-schools-must-follow-covid-19-response-plan-for-safe-reopening-of-schools/#risk-assessment

They also have the road map in line with public health advice
Which bit do you think breaches the legislation?

This is a novel deadly biosafety level 4 pathogen. Is it a case of share the blame legally?

I've highlighted the relevant part of your post.

Nobody is familiar with this once in a hundred year pandemic. (with exception of some experts)

You can't expect a teacher to come up with ideas to mitigate risk to an airborne pathogen when they've never experienced one and when the "plan" refuses to acknowledge that it is airborne.

ldy4mxonucwsq6

xhomelezz wrote: »

Frontline worker by now has access to all PPE gear he needs, at least I hope he does.

Or she of course

They also had to work in the midst of the lockdown when all non essential businesses were closed and we had several hundred cases a day.

Healthcare workers deal directly with known covid patients, comparing teachers to frontline healthcare workers is unrealistic.

Completely different risks involved.

Alrigghtythen

caveat emptor wrote: »

I found the HSE health and safety assessment guidelines. Pity kids and teachers not afforded the same courtesy. Every hse manager has to conduct this. They could be sued if not done correctly.

https://www.hse.ie/eng/staff/safetywellbeing/healthsafetyand%20wellbeing/guidelineoncompletionofoshriskassessments.pdf

5.0 Guidance
5.1 Legal basis for Risk Assessment
Section 19, of the Safety, Health and Welfare at Work Act, 2005 requires every employer (and those
who control workplaces to any extent) to identify the hazards at the place of work and to assess the
risk presented by those hazards.
It is also the responsibility of all staff to be aware of hazards and risks in the workplace and take
immediate action to report, reduce or resolve any hazards they observe in everyday practice.
5.2 Consultative Process
Section 26, of the Safety, Health and Welfare at Work Act, 2005 places a duty on the employer to
consult and engage with his or her employees on all matters relating to safety health and welfare
(including risk assessments).

It is widely acknowledged that risk assessments are best conducted by those who have a good
knowledge and understanding of the organisation, work practices and processes (HSG65, 2013;
OHSAS 18001).
A team approach to risk assessment should be adopted, with the involvement of employees who
have practical experience of the particular process or activity being considered in the risk
assessment. These employees will often have the best knowledge and understanding of the
hazards. (HSE, 2003).

The dept sent out a template for each school to conduct a risk assessment. See point 4 on link

https://www.gov.ie/en/publication/744f4-appendices-checklists-and-policies-that-schools-must-follow-covid-19-response-plan-for-safe-reopening-of-schools/#risk-assessment

They also have the road map in line with public health advice
Which bit do you think breaches the legislation?

iamwhoiam

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Walking to school outdoors is very low risk.

Yeh i know .They all arrive on one corridor to their classes at the same time . But it can be easily sorted by a five minute delay on start time

[Deleted User]

iamwhoiam wrote: »

Was in West Cork yesterday chatting to a teacher . There is no doubt that individual schools have individual issues and need to have different protected in place
They will have very little problems with distancing for example but problems with bus transport
Our local school in Dublin wont have transport issues but definitely issues with start times . The whole estate walks to school on packed footpaths so staggering starts will be their issue

Walking to school outdoors is very low risk.

iamwhoiam

Was in West Cork yesterday chatting to a teacher . There is no doubt that individual schools have individual issues and need to have different protected in place
They will have very little problems with distancing for example but problems with bus transport
Our local school in Dublin wont have transport issues but definitely issues with start times . The whole estate walks to school on packed footpaths so staggering starts will be their issue

xhomelezz

bodhrandude wrote: »

I'd be more inclined to wonder when Electric Picnic is coming back.

First weekend after the schools open :pac:

iamwhoiam

thomasdylan wrote: »

Come on now. The HSE has daily assaults and every so often sexual assaults on staff. And has people doing 24 hour and 36 hour shifts. HSE certainly hasnt a safer place to work than a school over the past few years.

And the amount of healthcare staff infected with Covid 19 is testament of that .

caveat emptor

caveat emptor wrote: »

Where does it say frontline worker?
Every organisation is required to do the following.......
If your school hasn't updated theirs in the context of a global pandemic
caused by an airborne pathogen.
They are on shaky ground and should probably do it pronto.

Just to clarify as regards the legislation.

We are dealing with the a level 4 biological agent......

• Safety, Health and Welfare at Work (Biological Agents) Regulations, 2013 (S.I. No. 572 of 2013)

“biological agent” means micro-organisms,
including those which have been genetically modified, cell cultures and human endoparasites,
which may be able to provoke any infection, allergy or toxicity,
classified into 4 risk groups accord- ing to their level of risk of infection,
as follows (if the biological agent to be assessed cannot be classified clearly in one of the following groups,
it shall be classified in the highest risk group among the alternatives):

(d) a “group 4 biological agent” means one that causes severe human disease and is a serious hazard to employees and that may present a high risk of spreading to the community and in respect of which there is usually no effective prophylaxis or treatment available;

thomasdylan

caveat emptor wrote: »

I found the HSE health and safety assessment guidelines. Pity kids and teachers not afforded the same courtesy. Every hse manager has to conduct this. They could be sued if not done correctly.

https://www.hse.ie/eng/staff/safetywellbeing/healthsafetyand%20wellbeing/guidelineoncompletionofoshriskassessments.pdf

Come on now. The HSE has daily assaults and every so often sexual assaults on staff. And has people doing 24 hour and 36 hour shifts. HSE certainly hasnt a safer place to work than a school over the past few years.

bodhrandude

I'd be more inclined to wonder when Electric Picnic is coming back.

xhomelezz

Alrigghtythen wrote: »

You would assess the risk as the same? I would not. A frontline worker, dealing with confirmed corona virsus patients and those with lowered immune systems is carrying a greater risk of catching it than a teacher in September.

Frontline worker by now has access to all PPE gear he needs, at least I hope he does.

caveat emptor

Alrigghtythen wrote: »

You would assess the risk as the same? I would not. A frontline worker, dealing with confirmed corona virsus patients and those with lowered immune systems is carrying a greater risk of catching it than a teacher in September.

Where does it say frontline worker?
Every organisation is required to do the following.......
If your school hasn't updated theirs in the context of a global pandemic
caused by an airborne pathogen.
They are on shaky ground and should probably do it pronto.

1.1 Legislative Framework
The Safety, Health and Welfare at Work Act, 2005 places a legal obligation on employers to proactively manage safety, health and welfare and put in place the necessary protective and preventative measures to reduce injury and ill-health to their employees. Other legislation and regulations pertinent to this undertaking include (non exhaustive):

• Safety, Health and Welfare at Work (General Application) Regulations, 2007 (S.I. 299/2007)

• Safety, Health and Welfare at Work (Reporting of Accidents and Dangerous Occurrences)

Regulations 2016 (S.I. No. 370 of 2016)
• Safety, Health and Welfare at Work (Biological Agents) Regulations, 2013 (S.I. No. 572 of 2013)

• Safety, Health and Welfare at Work (Chemical Agents) Regulations, 2001 (S.I. 619 of 2001)

Bobtheman

Look the state has done a terrific job on health and housing. I have every faith they can send kids back to school in September.

The teaching unions have to be careful. The erosion of the unions in Ireland is a lot of the reason for, zero hour contracts and the general decline of working conditions in many sectors.
INTEL abolished its defined benefit scheme and it was an easy lay because they had no union.
So a lot of the population who have **** all protection from unscrupulous employees want everybody down to their level.

Alrigghtythen

caveat emptor wrote: »

I found the HSE health and safety assessment guidelines. Pity kids and teachers not afforded the same courtesy. Every hse manager has to conduct this. They could be sued if not done correctly.

https://www.hse.ie/eng/staff/safetywellbeing/healthsafetyand%20wellbeing/guidelineoncompletionofoshriskassessments.pdf

You would assess the risk as the same? I would not. A frontline worker, dealing with confirmed corona virsus patients and those with lowered immune systems is carrying a greater risk of catching it than a teacher in September.

xhomelezz

Alrigghtythen wrote: »

Why are we putting them all in the same room?

Looks like you just looking for some cheap entertainment. Better pay few bucks and get Netflix or something.

lulublue22

Alrigghtythen wrote: »

Why are we putting them all in the same room?

Again with the cheap jibes - you know exactly what the concern is - makes a mockery of your we are all in this together schtick.

YellowBucket

BonsaiKitten wrote: »

That's the thing I can't understand, there's no acknowledgement that schools might have to close again or any concrete plan as to what they should do in that scenario. I know that not all schools can do the same thing - I taught my primary class live every day, which really only worked because they're from privileged backgrounds - but even some suggested templates would be a help.

Not only that but the vaccine timeline and assumption of it being immediately effective is very optimistic. The reality is we could have to deal with this for a year or more.

We have to be able to live with this and we need contingencies in place, including an ability to fall back on remote learning or half time class sizes.

I’m not saying that we shouldn’t reopen schools, nor am I trying to be a pessimist, but we need to be realistic or it will potentially cost us a lot In terms of disruption and a huge financial risk.

This *is* going to cost us money, but putting good infrastructure in place now could also potentially mean that we would have infrastructure for online learning that could be used permanently for other reasons and to just modernise services for students and teachers.

We need to be careful we’re not just looking at the short term.

combat14

Alrigghtythen wrote: »

Why are we putting them all in the same room?

with no masks on

caveat emptor

caveat emptor wrote: »

I agree Who would that be?

Occupational health?

I know companies are having to fit ventilation and filters.
Where's the risk assessments in the context of an airborne pathogen?

Great that googlers and tech workers told to work from home until 2021.
Seems like there'll be some serious legal disputes considering normal occupational health practice has been suspended and teachers not afforded the same legal protection as other workers.

Alrigghtythen wrote: »

Other workers like the garda, the nurses, the doctors, the shop keepers, the truck drivers, the shelf stackers, the packers, the fruit pickers all those other workers?

I found the HSE health and safety assessment guidelines. Pity kids and teachers not afforded the same courtesy. Every hse manager has to conduct this. They could be sued if not done correctly.

Where 2 metre worker separation cannot be ensured a specific activity risk assessment must be conducted and alternative protective measures must be put in place
e.g. comprehensive hygiene measures,
minimising the frequency and time staff are within 2 metres of each other,
minimising the number of staff involved in the task,
physical barriers,
provision of face masks.

https://www.hse.ie/eng/staff/safetywellbeing/healthsafetyand%20wellbeing/guidelineoncompletionofoshriskassessments.pdf

Alrigghtythen

combat14 wrote: »

yes it is some school it's called the irish education system comprising 1,091,632 students:

Primary 544,696
Secondary 372,296
Post secondary 174,640

plus teaching staff and that's why we have to get it right for the entire country's sake

Why are we putting them all in the same room?

lulublue22

Alrigghtythen wrote: »

We're all in this together

Not really if the response on here to SET covering classes is indicative of the general public then some children are expected to bear more of a burden than others.

ETA it will take more than a post a link to share the burden. If you genuinely thought we are all in this together then you would acknowledge the legitimate concerns re the return to school rather than tk a cheap shot post re how many teachers have measured their class or are they just saying that bull**** Raising questions / concerns does not equate with wanting to keep the schools closed.

combat14

Alrigghtythen wrote: »

Here's a link to free ICT courses for teachers.

https://www.pdsttechnologyineducation.ie/en/NEWS/Autumn-online-course-schedule1.html

1/5 of the population, that's some school

yes it is some school it's called the irish education system comprising 1,091,632 students:

Primary 544,696
Secondary 372,296
Post secondary 174,640

plus teaching staff and that's why we have to get it right for the entire country's sake

Alrigghtythen

lulublue22 wrote: »

Wow what would we do without you ?

We're all in this together

lulublue22

Alrigghtythen wrote: »

Absolutely a contingency plan should be in place. Every teacher in the country at this stage should have online resources prepped. Here's a great site for ideas and templates to help

https://www.tes.com/en-ie/teaching-resources

Wow what would we do without you ?