Boggles wrote: » To be fair the Swedes have done "remarkably well". They looked at their social structures and how the population behaves and they thought they could get away with it. I don't think there is many countries that could have tried what they did and had such an outcome. But they need to realize there is absolutely no way they can continue you this into winter, the sun rises at 9 and sets at 3. They need to accept their folly and change tactics or 1000s more will just die needlessly, the mental strain on the elderly there must be off the charts.
charlie14 wrote: » The "current measures" were used for the Black Plague and also successfully for ethe Spanish Flu. You are a great believer that your immune system will cure all ills on its own without any restrictions or vaccines. Can you name one pandemic where that has been the case ?
mcsean2163 wrote: » 7 day moving average for death rate is 2. Is that a seasonal affect, i.e. influenza is seasonal, has the virus become less virulent or something else entirely? Note a similar pattern in the US... It's really good to see their death rate decline. Any ideas here?
mcsean2163 wrote: » There seems to be an historical ethics debate going on with Charlie 14 hammering home his opinion with a sledgehammer. I think we are all agreed that Sweden did poorly with respect to its neighbours but perhaps we could move on to discussing the death rate and infection rate divergence and the Swedish approach in general. 7 day moving average for death rate is 2. Is that a seasonal affect, i.e. influenza is seasonal, has the virus become less virulent or something else entirely? Note a similar pattern in the US... It's really good to see their death rate decline. Any ideas here?
mcsean2163 wrote: » Study shows that 65-71 age bracket well being unaffected by covid19.https://www.barometern.se/ledare/valbefinnande-mitt-i-krisen-b03d7c7f But don't let facts interfere with your narrative.
That being said, the study is not a definitive truth. It was made early in the pandemic and among younger older people, partly among people who would hardly define themselves as older.
StefanFal wrote: » Not true. There are some countries open such as Spain, Croatia. I was in Norway last week on a cycling trip. The borders are not policed.
bob mcbob wrote: » I think this map shows the status of Norway for travellers from Sweden. I did not see any exemptions related to cycling holidays.https://www.fhi.no/en/op/novel-coronavirus-facts-advice/facts-and-general-advice/travel-advice-COVID19/
99nsr125 wrote: » H1N1 you know that thing that's now endemic in everybody that caused the Spanish Flu But hang on a second that was my question that you couldn't answer so shifted position because well that's what you do when you know you're losing the discussion.
biko wrote: » FHM now says they have miscalculated the worst case scenario Instead of another 7000+ deaths on top of the current 5646 deaths until end of the year, they now say worst case is only another 5437.https://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/a/jd60jq/folkhalsomyndighetens-sifferhaveri-fel-dodsprognos
greyday wrote: » Which basically proves their figures for the last month are very far off what is really happening, if they stayed at the last 7 day average they would have just over 300 deaths before the end of the year, the figure they gave would suggest 36 deaths daily until end of year.
Don't do what we did. It's not working. At the moment, we have set an example for the rest of the world on how not to deal with a deadly infectious disease.
We do believe Sweden can be used as a model, but not in the way it was thought of initially. It can instead serve as a control group and answer the question of how efficient the voluntary distancing and loose measures in Sweden are compared to lockdowns, aggressive testing, tracing and the use of masks.
biko wrote: » I suppose we should thank the Swedish government for volunteering their country to do the polar opposite of everyone else in the world. Otherwise future historians would have nothing to compare to.
Bit cynical wrote: » Sweden Says Covid Immunity Can Last 6 Months After Infection A recent study from King’s College London showed that the level of antibodies may drop to a degree that makes them undetectable as soon as three months after infection. However, the body also mounts other forms of immunity responses, including from so-called T-cells, which appear to play an important role in protecting against reinfection with Covid-19. Research from Sweden’s Karolinska Institutet has indicated that about twice as many people infected by Covid-19 have developed a T-cell mediated immunity response as those who have a detectable level of antibodies. “The risk of being reinfected and of transmitting the disease to other people is probably very close to zero,” Tegnell said. “Therefore, we think that you can meet other people, even if they are in a high-risk group.”
tobefrank321 wrote: » So you can have no detectable antibodies in your body but still be immune. Calls into question antibody tests as a way to determine who has had it or how many are immune. T Cell tests if such a thing exists might be the better option.
tobefrank321 wrote: » So you can have no detectable antibodies in your body but still be immune. Calls into question antibody tests as a way to determine who has had it or how many are immune. T Cell tests if such a thing exists might be the better option. Also it seems obvious at this stage that antibodies are not the only way of protecting people from covid reinfection. 8 million had the infection and are over it but no evidence any one of these has been re-infected. Despite a large number likely now having very low or undetectable levels of antibodies.
Bit cynical wrote: » T-cell immunity could partly explain why Sweden's numbers have been falling since April and other countries such as Ireland are struggling to keep numbers low.
Poorside wrote: » So no actual proof, they just ' think' you can meet other people and not pick it up, that's just super.
tobefrank321 wrote: » Also it seems obvious at this stage that antibodies are not the only way of protecting people from covid reinfection. 8 million had the infection and are over it but no evidence any one of these has been re-infected. Despite a large number likely now having very low or undetectable levels of antibodies.
Bit cynical wrote: » It means that the 14% of the overall population that tested positive for antibodies can be translated into about 30% for overall immunity for the country. There has also been research suggesting that the level required for herd immunity may be much lower than previously thought. Although still too early to say for certain, these factors go some way, I think, to explaining Sweden's falling numbers without resorting to believing, as some do, that the numbers are wrong.
charlie14 wrote: » That 14% you refer to that tested positive for antibodies. Is that from the results of the 50,000 tests carried out by Werlab AB ? If it is, it is not for the overall population, just Stockholm. The overall population figure from those tests was just 6.1% as far as I recall.
Bit cynical wrote: » My mistake. You are correct. The 14% was for Sweden with 10% over a number of regions overall in July.
Breezin wrote: » We are not in the middle ages. Science most of the time is not about simple certainties. Researchers have identified evidence supporting a particular positive interpretation. If you're not happy with that, then do your own study to show evidence to the contrary. This is a theme that was aired about a million posts ago on this thread, but for some we are still at the level of discussing bubonic plague.
