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Child Item

How will schools be able to go back in September?

shoppergal

Just wondering if anyone can give any insight into how schools could safely re-open in September?

Everyone I'm talking to is saying they won't be back until September but in my head I'm wondering how they'll re-open even in September? The virus will still be there with a vaccine still months away at that stage.

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abacus120

My daughter needs desperately to know when she is going back as do I for both our sakes, we walked by her school the other day and she said imagine just walking back in the doors, this coming from a child who is not mad about school. I get a knot in my stomach thinking of it all, her principle is still in the school most days, can only imagine The unbelievable stress for schools desperate for help and guidance.

Dickie10

Where will these extra teachers be got for secondary schools if some school split classes for SD? Its near impossible for schools in commuter belt and Dublin to get teachers at ordinary time, will SNAs be quick trained and brought in the supervise classes? are there many if any teachers out there that cant find work during normal school year? i know contracts are tough to get but work seems plentiful. Its just the casualisation of the teaching profession thats the downside.

Wanderer78

Purple Mountain wrote:

I'm really angry today. The Government and all the debate currently about Green Lists, Red Lists, inward travel, outward travel. The education of our children is 10 times more important than whether we get a sun holiday this year. I wish they'd just put a Do Not Travel order in place for now and focus all their attention on getting the schools sorted. It feels like education is way down the list of priorities at the moment. Mark my words, the schools won't be back in September

I'm afraid the critical needs of the economy, the delicate flower it is, far exceed the needs of the humans it's suppose to serve, we truly are a strange breed

lulublue22

Purple Mountain wrote: »

I'm really angry today. The Government and all the debate currently about Green Lists, Red Lists, inward travel, outward travel.
The education of our children is 10 times more important than whether we get a sun holiday this year.
I wish they'd just put a Do Not Travel order in place for now and focus all their attention on getting the schools sorted.
It feels like education is way down the list of priorities at the moment.
Mark my words, the schools won't be back in September

I'm hopeful there may at least be a partial return. This of course is not ideal especially for working parents but would at least be a step in the right direction and would give the children some sort of routine / structure / taste of normality.

Purple Mountain

I'm really angry today. The Government and all the debate currently about Green Lists, Red Lists, inward travel, outward travel.
The education of our children is 10 times more important than whether we get a sun holiday this year.
I wish they'd just put a Do Not Travel order in place for now and focus all their attention on getting the schools sorted.
It feels like education is way down the list of priorities at the moment.
Mark my words, the schools won't be back in September

lulublue22

MickeyLeari wrote: »

The WHO are talking this evening about a vaccination not being available until early next year and the need to be careful returning kids to school. https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/covid-19-don-t-expect-first-vaccinations-until-early-2021-who-s-ryan-says-1.4311045?mode=amp

Maybe the answer is to wait until the new Year for schools to reopen. What is 4 more months in the greater scheme of things?

It would be interesting to know at what level the WHO considers community transmission under control. In Ireland at the moment community transmission a/c for 32% of cases, 2% is travel and 66% is close contact. In relation to a vaccine a spokesperson for the oxford vaccine said best case scenario would be Christmas but that general public roll out would not begin till the middle of the year. ( vulnerable groups would obviously be prioritised) So realistically if the vaccine was not ready till the new year it would be a number of months till the vaccine is widely available.

History Queen

Zahir Bitter Cellist wrote: »

Yes I wonder myself if they've actually taken any notice of the benefit we have at looking at countries that have already opened.

Are our schools going to be the longest closed in Europe bar Italy?

I've looked at some of the schools open in Europe. None are open fully/normally/without some sort of extra measures (none that I saw but open to correction). Those that were lax about measures or removed them seem go have had spikes (eg. Israel, although not in Europe has similar classroom profile to Ireland). I read it in a newspaper article, I'll link there if I can find it.

I think we'll be open with additional measures as most of Europe seem to have done. Not sure if students will be full time in school. But I'm only speculating.

jlm29

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I am sorry, they should be told to suck it up or make themselves unavailable for work and accept the financial consequences. Nurses and Doctors got on with it, and the education of kids is the next frontline in this, for two reasons - the kids themselves, and to allow parents back to work.

Healthcare workers had plenty PPE, oceans of training and education, and policies coming out their ears. Nobody asked them to go into work in a cramped portacabin with no hand washing facilities Or sanitiser and just “suck it up”. They flew to China for plane loads of PPE for the healthcare workers, everyone should be entitled to the same. And I say that as a healthcare worker who desperately needs my kids in school because I won’t be at home to educate them myself, not a teacher.

MickeyLeari

The WHO are talking this evening about a vaccination not being available until early next year and the need to be careful returning kids to school. https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/covid-19-don-t-expect-first-vaccinations-until-early-2021-who-s-ryan-says-1.4311045?mode=amp

Maybe the answer is to wait until the new Year for schools to reopen. What is 4 more months in the greater scheme of things?

ldy4mxonucwsq6

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Need to look at the experience of countries who actually opened up their schools many weeks ago, and the implications of that.

We are weeks behind them. I wonder if DOE has done any analysis on the infection rates arising in European countries who have opened up their schools?

I dunno, just musing here.

Yes I wonder myself if they've actually taken any notice of the benefit we have at looking at countries that have already opened.

Are our schools going to be the longest closed in Europe bar Italy?

Spanish Eyes

Need to look at the experience of countries who actually opened up their schools many weeks ago, and the implications of that.

We are weeks behind them. I wonder if DOE has done any analysis on the infection rates arising in European countries who have opened up their schools?

I dunno, just musing here.

joe40

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I am sorry, they should be told to suck it up or make themselves unavailable for work and accept the financial consequences. Nurses and Doctors got on with it, and the education of kids is the next frontline in this, for two reasons - the kids themselves, and to allow parents back to work.

There wasn't a single nurse or doctor that was in a small room with up to 30 other people, with no protection.

This isn't just about teachers it is about protecting the wider community. Kids will mix together in schools hundreds over a 1000 in some cases. They will then go home to parents, grandparents etc.

If not handled properly there will be a spike in cases. 3rd level aren't going back to crowded lecture halls.

Schools are every bit as crowded.

I would love to go back to work as normal and on a personal level I'm not too worried, but social distancing will be impossible in schools.

I as a teacher might be able to protect myself but pupil interaction will mean a spike in the population is inevitable.

lulublue22

jrosen wrote: »

The current turn around for a covid test is 1.8 days. Teachers should be given priority on testing so if they are unwell they can be tested. They can also be tested on a Friday evening of every week. It wont be pleasant but its the only way to try and work around general illnesses.

The GAA thing drives me mad but needs must. It also shows how easily signing of on your child's current health can be.
There are work arounds, but is there the will? I dont think there is.

I agree testing will be paramount - only way to keep schools open - get in quick and catch any illness asap.
Conversely I’m feeling more optimistic. Funding has been announced for creches and further ed- think it will have to be announced for schools. Into twitted yesterday re talks with dep kinda felt ya things are starting to happen. Not sure on the testing though that will be a huge undertaking and cost.

Spanish Eyes

Anyone know what the infection rates are in countries that have had schools open for weeks in Europe. Forgive me for being lazy, but stats are not something I seek out!

It's just that I haven't heard of any spikes in places like Netherlands, France, Denmark, Spain and so on, but some of those countries may be on Summer break right now. What I mean is spikes traced back to schools. I do realise that there are some spikes in these countries, but not sure of the source.

Would visors work for teachers does anyone know?

timmy_mallet

lulublue22 wrote: »

That’s the type of ****e that gets my goat. If you bothered to read the thread you would realise that most teachers want to return to school with some form of protection. Similar to every other industry. Nobody is getting their story straight and covering their arse. It’s telling that you pop in and out of this thread making sure to get your dig in but have yet to offer anything constructive other than a good old stir till the next time.

Not true, I've been quite supportive of teachers, especially the way they coped with the upheaval in work practices.

Everybody is eager to return to work and offices and pre-March normality, not just teachers. The 'some form of protection' are weasel words, I'm afraid. The unions want 'covid safety', and want to adhere to the public guidance, and as I've said, it is abundantly clear that the guidance and schools are utterly incompatible. The unions story is straight, the others are figuring out theirs.

jrosen

The current turn around for a covid test is 1.8 days. Teachers should be given priority on testing so if they are unwell they can be tested. They can also be tested on a Friday evening of every week. It wont be pleasant but its the only way to try and work around general illnesses.

The GAA thing drives me mad but needs must. It also shows how easily signing of on your child's current health can be.
There are work arounds, but is there the will? I dont think there is.

Blondini

Deleted User wrote: »

I am sorry, they should be told to suck it up or make themselves unavailable for work and accept the financial consequences. Nurses and Doctors got on with it, and the education of kids is the next frontline in this, for two reasons - the kids themselves, and to allow parents back to work.

Wow, such insight and that definitely has not been said 1000 times already in this thread.

Go you!

lulublue22

BonsaiKitten wrote: »

I can see cover being a huge problem next year. I wonder how many of the non teachers on this thread are aware that the first day of teacher self-certified sick leave does not entitle a school to a sub? Typically you'd handle this by splitting a class up into groups and sending them to different classrooms with work packs. Can't do that next year presumably...so what do you do with them? Put the SET teacher in to cover the class and deprive kids with additional needs of their support? Do you put the principal in (which a teaching principal can't do)? Do you send them home?

It will be a huge issue next year especially with covid symptoms being easily confused with a cold and or a viral illness Due to the amount of colds, flu’s and viral infections that go around schools staffing will be critical. I can’t imagine any principal/ BOM being happy with a staff member turning up to school with a cough/ sore throat etc. Testing will also be an issue I presume if you have any signs you will need to be tested and given the all clear prior to returning to work. Not fair to constantly pull SET away from those children that need it the most. Next year will be very messy if we manage to get back.

wirelessdude01

[Deleted User] wrote: »

For younger Kids some sort of app similar to what the GAA have in place should be used. Parents certify kids as well in the morning prior to going to school. Younger kids are definitely the lowest risk for getting and transmitting the virus so present a lowever risk for teachers and each other. for older kids screen and masks may be an option where 2m is not possible

https://www.google.com/search?q=school+desk+covid+screens&rlz=1C1CHBD_en-GBGB865GB865&hl=en-US&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjWrs_wmeHqAhUmQkEAHQPDCPEQ_AUoAnoECAsQBA&biw=1280&bih=610#imgrc=HZxS9JmHxcYSKM

This is where the department needs to step up. If something like this was to be implemented then it needs to be put into a circular so that it can be implemented. One issue that would be very obvious is what to do with the kid(s) that are just thrown out of the car at the school gate without any 'certification' having occured?

lulublue22

[Deleted User] wrote: »

For younger Kids some sort of app similar to what the GAA have in place should be used. Parents certify kids as well in the morning prior to going to school. Younger kids are definitely the lowest risk for getting and transmitting the virus so present a lowever risk for teachers and each other. for older kids screen and masks may be an option where 2m is not possible

https://www.google.com/search?q=school+desk+covid+screens&rlz=1C1CHBD_en-GBGB865GB865&hl=en-US&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjWrs_wmeHqAhUmQkEAHQPDCPEQ_AUoAnoECAsQBA&biw=1280&bih=610#imgrc=HZxS9JmHxcYSKM

That’s the whole point - steps can be taken to minimise transmission but as of yet no one has any idea what the gov is going to do in terms of funding.

BonsaiKitten

lulublue22 wrote: »

Eta - if you look at the last 3 points they are very valid.
SET teachers should not be used to cover classes to the detriment of those children with special / additional needs. They need a return to education the most.
The dep have not covered themselves in glory. Schools have been closed since March. Contingency plans should have been put in place and clearly communicated before now.
As yet no indication of financial investment to facilitate a return to school.

I can see cover being a huge problem next year. I wonder how many of the non teachers on this thread are aware that the first day of teacher self-certified sick leave does not entitle a school to a sub? Typically you'd handle this by splitting a class up into groups and sending them to different classrooms with work packs. Can't do that next year presumably...so what do you do with them? Put the SET teacher in to cover the class and deprive kids with additional needs of their support? Do you put the principal in (which a teaching principal can't do)? Do you send them home?

lulublue22

lulublue22 wrote: »

Few points - it’s a survey of 6100 teachers out of how many ? bit of perspective needed.
Education is extremely important and if people want to class it as frontline work then good. But if we are going to do so and compare teachers to frontline staff in the HSE then they should be offered some form of ppe/ screens / provision of hand sanitiser . No ? Similar really to what we see in retail / restaurants / public transport etc.

ETA This survey is also in the context of no guidelines and no one including the dep it seems is aware of any measures proposed to facilitate a return to education.

Eta - if you look at the last 3 points they are very valid.
SET teachers should not be used to cover classes to the detriment of those children with special / additional needs. They need a return to education the most.
The dep have not covered themselves in glory. Schools have been closed since March. Contingency plans should have been put in place and clearly communicated before now.
As yet no indication of financial investment to facilitate a return to school.

ETA - Thinking on it - people are entitled to their own feelings. Rather than viewing this in a knee jerk reaction of Teachers are precious they don’t want to go back in Sep. It highlights how poor the gov response has been to the educational needs of our children. They have blithely announced a full return of school in Sep yet have made no attempt to communicate how this is going to happen. Israel and melbourne have seen clusters in schools. The south Korea study has indicated children from the age of 10 can transmit the virus. A ten year old is 4th / 5th class. Taking senior primary school children and all of post primary thats a lot of children that have the potential to transmit the virus.

[Deleted User]

lulublue22 wrote: »

Few points - it’s a survey of 6100 teachers out of how many ? bit of perspective needed.
Education is extremely important and if people want to class it as frontline work then good. But if we are going to do so and compare teachers to frontline staff in the HSE then they should be offered some form of ppe/ screens / provision of hand sanitiser . No ? Similar really to what we see in retail / restaurants / public transport etc.

ETA This survey is also in the context of no guidelines and no one including the dep it seems aware if any measures proposed to facilitate a return to education.

For younger Kids some sort of app similar to what the GAA have in place should be used. Parents certify kids as well in the morning prior to going to school. Younger kids are definitely the lowest risk for getting and transmitting the virus so present a lowever risk for teachers and each other. for older kids screen and masks may be an option where 2m is not possible

https://www.google.com/search?q=school+desk+covid+screens&rlz=1C1CHBD_en-GBGB865GB865&hl=en-US&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjWrs_wmeHqAhUmQkEAHQPDCPEQ_AUoAnoECAsQBA&biw=1280&bih=610#imgrc=HZxS9JmHxcYSKM

lulublue22

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I am sorry, they should be told to suck it up or make themselves unavailable for work and accept the financial consequences. Nurses and Doctors got on with it, and the education of kids is the next frontline in this, for two reasons - the kids themselves, and to allow parents back to work.

Few points - it’s a survey of 6100 teachers out of how many ? bit of perspective needed.
Education is extremely important and if people want to class it as frontline work then good. But if we are going to do so and compare teachers to frontline staff in the HSE then they should be offered some form of ppe/ screens / provision of hand sanitiser . No ? Similar really to what we see in retail / restaurants / public transport etc.

ETA This survey is also in the context of no guidelines and no one including the dep it seems is aware of any measures proposed to facilitate a return to education.

Eta - if you look at the last 3 points they are very valid.
SET teachers should not be used to cover classes to the detriment of those children with special / additional needs. They need a return to education the most.
The dep have not covered themselves in glory. Schools have been closed since March. Contingency plans should have been put in place and clearly communicated before now.
As yet no indication of financial investment to facilitate a return to school.

[Deleted User]

s1ippy wrote: »

Posted these over in the other thread as well, from Voices for Teachers Ireland.

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=4308929732481000&id=527218130652198&sfnsn=mo

I am sorry, they should be told to suck it up or make themselves unavailable for work and accept the financial consequences. Nurses and Doctors got on with it, and the education of kids is the next frontline in this, for two reasons - the kids themselves, and to allow parents back to work.

wadacrack

Would be very wary of Colleges here. Could lead to a big spike.

https://twitter.com/devisridhar/status/1285954801453457408

khalessi

timmy_mallet wrote: »

Teachers hide behind Department, Department hide behind strict guidance, Strict guidance suggesters hide behind it not being their responsibility. End. No schools.

timmy_mallet wrote: »

This is a charade. The Dept. know they can't open schools to any degree with current Public Health guidance. The Public Health guidance is not going to change. The Teachers know the Dept. know. It's essentially a dance til start of September til each of the stakeholders can get their story straight and cover their ar$e.

Have you not got tired with your negative attitude towards teachers yet?

lulublue22

timmy_mallet wrote: »

This is a charade. The Dept. know they can't open schools to any degree with current Public Health guidance. The Public Health guidance is not going to change. The Teachers know the Dept. know. It's essentially a dance til start of September til each of the stakeholders can get their story straight and cover their ar$e.

That’s the type of ****e that gets my goat. If you bothered to read the thread you would realise that most teachers want to return to school with some form of protection. Similar to every other industry. Nobody is getting their story straight and covering their arse. It’s telling that you pop in and out of this thread making sure to get your dig in but have yet to offer anything constructive other than a good old stir till the next time.

lulublue22

timmy_mallet wrote: »

How does that reduce the risk for Teachers? It doesn't. There will be no schools, at all. Time to think of alternatives for your kids.

I presume in an attempt to adhere to SD. Teachers in full time children spread out over the week. 2 - 21/2 days face to face would be far better than 100% online in my opinion especially if we streamlined the curriculum for the duration - Eng Maths SESE and wellbeing. That’s at primary level.

timmy_mallet

This is a charade. The Dept. know they can't open schools to any degree with current Public Health guidance. The Public Health guidance is not going to change. The Teachers know the Dept. know. It's essentially a dance til start of September til each of the stakeholders can get their story straight and cover their ar$e.