Is it just me or have SF vanished?

Adam9213 wrote: »

You seem so ignorant I don't think you'll ever believe it as you don't want to believe it, anyway read my last post about the MRF it might help you come around as there is actually solid evidence of that one as you won't believe anything without solo evidence no matter how obvious it is.

Not in the least ignorant, lived through the 1970s and 1980s, have read an awful lot as well, clear in my own mind that the vast vast majority of the blame for the conflict falls on the IRA, Sinn Fein and the men like Bobby Storey who still run them.

jm08 wrote: »

So, can you explain this then.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/loyalists-told-charles-haughey-mi5-asked-us-to-execute-you-1.3339804?mode=sample&auth-failed=1&pw-origin=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishtimes.com%2Fnews%2Fireland%2Firish-news%2Floyalists-told-charles-haughey-mi5-asked-us-to-execute-you-1.3339804

Another claim?

where's the proof, the smoking gun?

Not there, not anywhere. Certainly not on the basis of your original statement.

blanch152 wrote: »

Now, we are getting somewhere, you are referring to "claims", rather than making statements of historical fact.

The facts are, there is no proof and no evidence of British government approval, advance knowledge or involvement generally in loyalist killings rendering your statement that "most loyalist killings were orchestrated by the British state" untrue. There are claims from nationalist sources of involvement in a minority of such loyalist actions by individuals in the British security services, and potentially senior people within organisations, but there is little hard evidence of the latter, and none to suggest that where it took place, it was anything other than rogue elements acting without the government's knowledge and approval.

In the same way, there were Gardai who helped supply information and intelligence to the IRA, but that isn't taken by anyone to mean that the IRA terrorist activities were orchestrated by the Irish State.

You seem so ignorant I don't think you'll ever believe it as you don't want to believe it, anyway read my last post about the MRF it might help you come around as there is actually solid evidence of that one as you won't believe anything without solo evidence no matter how obvious it is.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/loyalists-told-charles-haughey-mi5-asked-us-to-execute-you-1.3339804?mode=sample&auth-failed=1&pw-origin=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishtimes.com%2Fnews%2Fireland%2Firish-news%2Floyalists-told-charles-haughey-mi5-asked-us-to-execute-you-1.3339804

blanch152 wrote: »

If all of that is true, and I am not bothered to challenge it for the moment, it only backs up my statement that there is evidence of individual members of the British security forces involvement.

However, it does nothing to back up your statement that "most loyalist killings were orchestrated by the British state". You have no evidence of British government approval or involvement or even knowledge in advance of actions by individuals.

Another thing I don't know if you've heard of the MRF it was a top secret section of the British army unit was formed during the summer of 1971 and operated until late 1972 or early 1973. MRF teams operated in plain clothes and civilian vehicles, equipped with pistols and submachine guns they were tasked with tracking down and arresting, or killing, members of the Irish Republican Army (IRA).

Martin Dillon described the MRF's purpose as being "to draw the Provisional IRA into a shooting war with loyalists in order to distract the IRA from its objective of attacking the Army".

MRF operatives patrolled the streets in these cars in teams of two to four, tracking down and arresting or killing suspected IRA members. They were armed with Browning pistols and Sterling sub-machine guns. Former MRF members admitted that the unit shot unarmed people without warning, both IRA members and civilians.Former MRF members claim they had a list of targets they were ordered to "shoot on sight".One member interviewed for the BBC's Panorama, Soldier F, said "We were not there to act like an army unit, we were there to act like a terror group". Soldier H said "We operated initially with them thinking that we were the UVF", to which Soldier F added: "We wanted to cause confusion". Another said that their role was "to draw out the IRA and to minimise their activities".They said they fired on groups of people manning defensive barricades, on the assumption that some might be armed.The MRF member who made a statement in 1978 opined that the unit's role was one of "repression through fear, terror and violence". He said that the unit had been trained to use weapons favoured by the IRA.

In 1972, MRF teams carried out a number of drive-by shootings on random civilians in Catholic and Irish nationalist areas of Belfast, most of which were attributed to Ulster loyalist paramilitaries.

At least fifteen civilians were shot. MRF members have affirmed the unit's involvement in most of these attacks. There are also allegations that the unit helped loyalists to carry out attacks.

Now a secret British army unit that has self admittedly by its members been involved in false flag terrorism should be enough to make you believe that just maybe the British state used loyalists as pseudo gangs, do you really believe that a top secret British army unit of just 40 members some of which were taken from special forces like the SAS were acting as individuals and nothing to do with the British state all?

I won't bring up all the false flag terror bombings they are alleged to be behind as there is no "hardcore evidence" of which you don't believe anything without, I could say way more about this group but I don't want it to be too long

jm08

blanch152 wrote: »

Now, we are getting somewhere, you are referring to "claims", rather than making statements of historical fact.

The facts are, there is no proof and no evidence of British government approval, advance knowledge or involvement generally in loyalist killings rendering your statement that "most loyalist killings were orchestrated by the British state" untrue. There are claims from nationalist sources of involvement in a minority of such loyalist actions by individuals in the British security services, and potentially senior people within organisations, but there is little hard evidence of the latter, and none to suggest that where it took place, it was anything other than rogue elements acting without the government's knowledge and approval.

In the same way, there were Gardai who helped supply information and intelligence to the IRA, but that isn't taken by anyone to mean that the IRA terrorist activities were orchestrated by the Irish State.

So, can you explain this then.

Loyalists told Charles Haughey MI5 ‘asked us to execute you’

UVF wrote to taoiseach saying it refused request from British intelligence officer

Adam9213 wrote: »

Are you being serious? Individuals? Did you even read it all the claims are that the loyalist gangs were working on behalf of British intelligence, that they are working on the orders of British intelligence.

Now, we are getting somewhere, you are referring to "claims", rather than making statements of historical fact.

The facts are, there is no proof and no evidence of British government approval, advance knowledge or involvement generally in loyalist killings rendering your statement that "most loyalist killings were orchestrated by the British state" untrue. There are claims from nationalist sources of involvement in a minority of such loyalist actions by individuals in the British security services, and potentially senior people within organisations, but there is little hard evidence of the latter, and none to suggest that where it took place, it was anything other than rogue elements acting without the government's knowledge and approval.

In the same way, there were Gardai who helped supply information and intelligence to the IRA, but that isn't taken by anyone to mean that the IRA terrorist activities were orchestrated by the Irish State.

blanch152 wrote: »

If all of that is true, and I am not bothered to challenge it for the moment, it only backs up my statement that there is evidence of individual members of the British security forces involvement.

However, it does nothing to back up your statement that "most loyalist killings were orchestrated by the British state". You have no evidence of British government approval or involvement or even knowledge in advance of actions by individuals.

Are you being serious? Individuals? Did you even read it all the claims are that the loyalist gangs were working on behalf of British intelligence, that they are working on the orders of British intelligence.

Adam9213 wrote: »

The evidence is overwhelming, I get annoyed when people like you deny collusion because I know for a fact if you done all the research you would not deny it whatsoever, I can't be bothered trying to educate someone who can't be bothered to read up on their own history but here's a copy and paste from a thread I made yesterday, these quotes are coming from one of the top MI5/MI6 officers at the height of the troubles in Northern Ireland who has exposed numerous scandals like the Kincora boys many of the allegations he made in the 70s (which were not made public until years later) have turned out to be true his word is extremely credible, he's speaking hear about the Dublin Monaghan bombings.

At the time of the bombings, Colin Wallace was a British Intelligence Corps officer and a psychological warfare specialist at the British Army's Northern Ireland headquarters. Since his resignation in 1975, he has exposed scandals involving the security forces, including state collusion with loyalists. He gave evidence to the Barron Inquiry.

In an August 1975 letter to Tony Stoughton, chief of the British Army Information Service in Northern Ireland, Wallace writes:

There is good evidence the Dublin bombings in May last year were a reprisal for the Irish government's role in bringing about the [power sharing] Executive. According to one of Craig's people [Craig Smellie, the top MI6 officer in Northern Ireland], most of those involved – the Youngs, the Jacksons, Mulholland, Hanna, Kerr and McConnell – were working closely with [Special Branch] and [Military Intelligence] at that time. Craig's people believe the sectarian assassinations were designed to destroy Rees's attempts to negotiate a ceasefire, and the targets were identified for both sides by [Intelligence/Special Branch]. They also believe some very senior RUC officers were involved with this group. In short, it would appear that loyalist paramilitaries and [Intelligence/Special Branch] members have formed some sort of pseudo gangs in an attempt to fight a war of attrition against the PIRA by getting paramilitaries on both sides to kill each other and, at the same time prevent any future political initiative such as Sunningdale.

In a further letter of September 1975, Wallace wrote that MI5 was backing a group of UVF hardliners who opposed the UVF's move toward politics. He added:

I believe much of the violence generated during the latter part of last year was caused by some of the new [Intelligence] people deliberately stirring up the conflict. As you know, we have never been allowed to target the breakaway UVF, nor the UFF, during the past year. Yet they have killed more people than the IRA!

This is just something from a previous thread I made yesterday I could go on and on and on until you were convinced but if you don't know by now you clearly couldn't be bothered to learn anyway.

If all of that is true, and I am not bothered to challenge it for the moment, it only backs up my statement that there is evidence of individual members of the British security forces involvement.

However, it does nothing to back up your statement that "most loyalist killings were orchestrated by the British state". You have no evidence of British government approval or involvement or even knowledge in advance of actions by individuals.

blanch152 wrote: »

Was it confusing?

You made a statement that "most loyalist killings were orchestrated by the British state", for which there is no evidence (there is evidence in some cases for involvement by members of the British security forces, but no evidence for the blanket statement you made) yet you claim repeatedly to be knowledgeable and educated on the IRA terrorist campaign. On a number of occasions, there have been disparaging references to others lack of education and I am only pointing out a serious gap in your knowledge of the issue.

At the very least, you have a skewed view of the issue which makes it difficult to accept any of the points you raise.

The evidence is overwhelming, I get annoyed when people like you deny collusion because I know for a fact if you done all the research you would not deny it whatsoever, I can't be bothered trying to educate someone who can't be bothered to read up on their own history but here's a copy and paste from a thread I made yesterday, these quotes are coming from one of the top MI5/MI6 officers at the height of the troubles in Northern Ireland who has exposed numerous scandals like the Kincora boys many of the allegations he made in the 70s (which were not made public until years later) have turned out to be true his word is extremely credible, he's speaking hear about the Dublin Monaghan bombings.

At the time of the bombings, Colin Wallace was a British Intelligence Corps officer and a psychological warfare specialist at the British Army's Northern Ireland headquarters. Since his resignation in 1975, he has exposed scandals involving the security forces, including state collusion with loyalists. He gave evidence to the Barron Inquiry.

In an August 1975 letter to Tony Stoughton, chief of the British Army Information Service in Northern Ireland, Wallace writes:

There is good evidence the Dublin bombings in May last year were a reprisal for the Irish government's role in bringing about the [power sharing] Executive. According to one of Craig's people [Craig Smellie, the top MI6 officer in Northern Ireland], most of those involved – the Youngs, the Jacksons, Mulholland, Hanna, Kerr and McConnell – were working closely with [Special Branch] and [Military Intelligence] at that time. Craig's people believe the sectarian assassinations were designed to destroy Rees's attempts to negotiate a ceasefire, and the targets were identified for both sides by [Intelligence/Special Branch]. They also believe some very senior RUC officers were involved with this group. In short, it would appear that loyalist paramilitaries and [Intelligence/Special Branch] members have formed some sort of pseudo gangs in an attempt to fight a war of attrition against the PIRA by getting paramilitaries on both sides to kill each other and, at the same time prevent any future political initiative such as Sunningdale.

In a further letter of September 1975, Wallace wrote that MI5 was backing a group of UVF hardliners who opposed the UVF's move toward politics. He added:

I believe much of the violence generated during the latter part of last year was caused by some of the new [Intelligence] people deliberately stirring up the conflict. As you know, we have never been allowed to target the breakaway UVF, nor the UFF, during the past year. Yet they have killed more people than the IRA!

This is just something from a previous thread I made yesterday I could go on and on and on until you were convinced but if you don't know by now you clearly couldn't be bothered to learn anyway.

McMurphy wrote: »

Which has exactly the square root of fcuk all to do with what I asked.

As has been pointed out repeatedly now on this and various other thread's, it doesn't matter one iota who was inside the coffin, or what politcal persuasion the mourners in attendance had.

The virus doesn't care.

The virus only wants fresh human hosts so it can multiply itself and spread to other human hosts.

In both Bobby Storey's funeral, and that of Garda Horkans funeral we seen hundreds if not thousands break the health guidelines for social distancing put in place to try and curtail it transferring between hosts and being transferred to new hosts in different parts of the country.

When you have a coherent answer as to why one funeral breaking the protocols was acceptable and the other was not, I'll be here all ears. Incidentally I'm of the opinion both sets of mourners were wrong.

The usual "Sinn Fein IRA" nonsense with a sprinkle of "Garda killed in action state funeral" won't cut the mustard randy, as I already stated the virus wouldn't give a sh1t.

I think there are a number of significant differences that have become clearer over time.

(1) The Horkan funeral was an official State funeral giving it a different status.
(2) Whatever about locals, Gardai paid their respects from a distance, in Garda stations around the country, as did most of the politicians. We didn't have people travelling from Cork for the Horkan funeral etc.
(3) Some sort of unofficial white-shirted militia-type group, looking and acting an awful lot like a US white supremacist group, marshalled the Storey funeral without any legal authority.
(4) The Horkan funeral was a real funeral, the Storey funeral included a fake procession to a fake burial, complete with fake eulogies, for politically staged reasons, before a real cremation elsewhere.
(5) The Storey funeral, a funeral of an ordinary criminal thug, was given precedence over the funerals of ordinary decent people in Belfast.

It wasn't just about the protocols, there were a whole heap of other reasons to be concerned about the Storey funeral, not least what he was, and not to mention the stupid silly selfies by Michelle.

Adam9213 wrote: »

Are you going to make a point or is that it?

Was it confusing?

You made a statement that "most loyalist killings were orchestrated by the British state", for which there is no evidence (there is evidence in some cases for involvement by members of the British security forces, but no evidence for the blanket statement you made) yet you claim repeatedly to be knowledgeable and educated on the IRA terrorist campaign. On a number of occasions, there have been disparaging references to others lack of education and I am only pointing out a serious gap in your knowledge of the issue.

At the very least, you have a skewed view of the issue which makes it difficult to accept any of the points you raise.

blanch152 wrote: »

Your two posts contradict each other, particularly the points in bold.

I would guess that if you are reading as much as you say, all of your purchases were made in Parnell Square.

Are you going to make a point or is that it?

blanch152 wrote: »

Are you suggesting that Bobby Storey should have had a State funeral?

Because other than that, I don't understand the point.

No he never stated that at all. You implying he did as per

Bowie wrote: »

I see Haughey got a state one, gun running. Michael Collins, terrorism. DeValera fraud, terrorism...
Do you think having Flanagan near the flag is a farce? I do. Each to his own. Flag belongs to the country.

Are you suggesting that Bobby Storey should have had a State funeral?

Because other than that, I don't understand the point.

maccored

timthumbni wrote: »

Hmmm. Then you will realise that in the modern day troubles in NI that the ira murdered more people than anyone else involved. They also murdered a hell of a lot of catholics. Many more than the hated RUC for example.

I suggest that you digest that and then come back.

you need to digest the amount of killing the BA was doing in the name of the IRA. It wasnt called a dirty war for nothing.

Adam9213 wrote: »

Your point about the RUC isn't really fair as most loyalist killings were orchestrated by the British state so most loyalist killings may as well be counted as deaths by the security forces.

Adam9213 wrote: »

And what experience do you have? None at all just that you live on the other side of the border and think that makes you a historian on the troubles.

I think I know about it because I'm fascinated by it and I used to and still do sometimes spend hours reading up about it I don't think there's really anyone who knows more about it than me unless you have private information which has never been released to the public.

I'm Irish meaning it's my history no matter what county I live in.

Your two posts contradict each other, particularly the points in bold.

I would guess that if you are reading as much as you say, all of your purchases were made in Parnell Square.

timthumbni wrote: »

Are you serious? I could park on the shankill road but I wouldn’t recommend it to anyone visiting Belfast. That’s no matter if you were unionist or republican. I’ve saw your posts on here. I’m sure you are welcome in the boggside.

West Belfast has always had a problem with anti social behaviour. Even country bogger republicans won’t park their car there unless they want it wrapped around the balls on the falls by some spide.

No you said no way would anyone Park in Bogside. Dundalk usually bring 100-150 to Derry with about 40 cars and 1 or 2 mini buses of fans id say. No issues have ever been had regarding anyones cars

FrancieBrady

Truthvader wrote: »

So Francie, again, all those illegal fuel depos in your area? Made your complaint yet or are you turning a blind eye. Uncle Gerry would be urging you as I am to report this criminality to the Guards or PSNI. Nothing to worry about Francie you keep telling us the war is over and the IRA heroes are gone away.

Or just maybe you know the sordid truth that it would be very inadvisable indeed to make any report at all

I do not turn a blind eye to any criminal activity.

And it wasn't the point, the point you are desperately trying to deflect for is that, if I know and can see this going on why are the security forces ignoring it.

It is easier for you and others to portray the community as silent in complicity.

Truthvader

FrancieBrady wrote: »

If you turn a blind eye to the facts you are not going to see the efforts made.
Carry on, you are trying to construct a false narrative. And as we have seen with your dubious 'statistics' that narrative fails when it is challenged by the facts.

So Francie, again, all those illegal fuel depos in your area? Made your complaint yet or are you turning a blind eye. Uncle Gerry would be urging you as I am to report this criminality to the Guards or PSNI. Nothing to worry about Francie you keep telling us the war is over and the IRA heroes are gone away.

Or just maybe you know the sordid truth that it would be very inadvisable indeed to make any report at all

timthumbni

dundalkfc10 wrote: »

No reply to me that I've parked in bogside on many occasions with no issues.

Wonder why?

Are you serious? I could park on the shankill road but I wouldn’t recommend it to anyone visiting Belfast. That’s no matter if you were unionist or republican. I’ve saw your posts on here. I’m sure you are welcome in the boggside.

West Belfast has always had a problem with anti social behaviour. Even country bogger republicans won’t park their car there unless they want it wrapped around the balls on the falls by some spide.

timthumbni wrote: »

Hmmm. Then you will realise that in the modern day troubles in NI that the ira murdered more people than anyone else involved. They also murdered a hell of a lot of catholics. Many more than the hated RUC for example.

I suggest that you digest that and then come back.

Your point about the RUC isn't really fair as most loyalist killings were orchestrated by the British state so most loyalist killings may as well be counted as deaths by the security forces.

timthumbni wrote: »

Hmmm. Then you will realise that in the modern day troubles in NI that the ira murdered more people than anyone else involved. They also murdered a hell of a lot of catholics. Many more than the hated RUC for example.

I suggest that you digest that and then come back.

According to CAIN, the IRA was responsible for at least 1,705 deaths, about 48% of the total conflict deaths. Of these, at least 1,009 (about 59%) were members or former members of the British security forces, while at least 508 (about 29%) were civilians.

The civilian figure also includes civilians employed by British forces, politicians, members of the judiciary, and alleged criminals and informers. Most of the remainder were loyalist or republican paramilitary members; including over 100 IRA members accidentally killed by their own bombs or shot for being security force agents or informers. Overall, the IRA was responsible for over 90% of the total British security force deaths, and 27–30% of the total civilian deaths in the conflict.

timthumbni wrote: »

A man of your non experience? I’m shocked.

No reply to me that I've parked in bogside on many occasions with no issues.

Wonder why?

timthumbni wrote: »

A man of your non experience? I’m shocked.

I have nothing against unionists personally it's the ideology I'm against, it was brought over here in the 1600s to control Ulster (which is still working to this day) which was the most rebellious part of Ireland and the ideology still exists today so I'll never be okay with the ideology.

timthumbni

Adam9213 wrote: »

Anyway my point was just because someone is from Northern Ireland doesn't mean they know what they're talking about, I see northern Irish history simply as Irish history there's no difference to me.

Hmmm. Then you will realise that in the modern day troubles in NI that the ira murdered more people than anyone else involved. They also murdered a hell of a lot of catholics. Many more than the hated RUC for example.

I suggest that you digest that and then come back.

timthumbni wrote: »

A man of your non experience? I’m shocked.

And what experience do you have? None at all just that you live on the other side of the border and think that makes you a historian on the troubles.

I think I know about it because I'm fascinated by it and I used to and still do sometimes spend hours reading up about it I don't think there's really anyone who knows more about it than me unless you have private information which has never been released to the public.

I'm Irish meaning it's my history no matter what county I live in.

Anyway my point was just because someone is from Northern Ireland doesn't mean they know what they're talking about, I see northern Irish history simply as Irish history there's no difference to me.

timthumbni

Adam9213 wrote: »

Let's just say I'm not a fan of them.

A man of your non experience? I’m shocked.

timthumbni wrote: »

I realise you don’t know (ðŸ˜‚)but even some of the bots on here will know and confirm to you I’m definitely from NI. I’m a NI unionist. You may not have heard of them.

Let's just say I'm not a fan of them.