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How will schools be able to go back in September?

shoppergal

Just wondering if anyone can give any insight into how schools could safely re-open in September?

Everyone I'm talking to is saying they won't be back until September but in my head I'm wondering how they'll re-open even in September? The virus will still be there with a vaccine still months away at that stage.

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Sammy2012

downthemiddle wrote: »

There’s more to come. That was an interim document. The issuing of “guidelines” will continue ad infinitum. It’s what the department do best.

Ah I was wondering. So much indecisiveness.

History Queen

markodaly wrote: »

It is, of course, convenient to blame all and sundry on the department of Education. Sure the department can open schools tomorrow, nothing stopping them per se, but then the next question from the intransigence Unions will be a tome of guidelines and policies for every such eventuality, which of courses takes a lot of time, effort, talking, more time, money, yet more talking, negotiations and then agreement.

Put it this way, every other sector of the country is open to some degree, apart from schools. So, are the people working in the Dept. of Education less able then any other department say in Health or Social Welfare, or is there something else going on?

The teacher Unions have a reputation for being quite difficult so one can draw its own conclusions as to why in July Ireland is one of the few countries in the world that still haven't re-opened it schools.

So you want schools to open without guidance? Because that's the alternative. Unions have asked questions re guidance AND offered solutions. The Dept don't want to use these solutions as they feel they will cost too much to implement.

Have you looked at the guidance issued last week by the HSE? It'd be worth looking at to see what schools are being asked to do and then look at your local school and identify just how much of the guidance will be difficult to implement.

To comply with it schools need the Dept to commit to funding for schools. More guidance is expected as many issues aren't addressed in the guidance such as the scenario with substitute teachers/second level issues such as moving classes/what to do when there isn't a room in the school available for isolation etc

the corpo

markodaly wrote: »

So, yea the whole class size thing as a singular excuse does not hold water.

Never said it was a singular excuse, but it's a factor in a disadvantaged education system that doesn't put us on the same footing as the rest of Europe.

What I'm frustrated with are the Ivan's and Ciara's screaming that we need a full reopening, like the rest of Europe (and Denmark is always cited). My point is the comparison isn't fair.

I'm trying to see where, in Europe, has fully reopened their schools, and I can only see France has, since June 22. Possibly the Netherlands have, can't see supporting reports.

Belgium opened May 10, but no more than 10 children are allowed in each classroom.

Danish primary schools attend in shifts, with kids in pods of between 6 and 12.

The Netherlands only stopped social distancing measures on July 1st (I can't see if they have staggered openings or not, so I don't know if it's a full reopening)

Austria has only allowed final year students to return.

Spain won't fully reopen until at least September.

and so on. So they've mostly all returned in compromised positions, not full re-openings. It is unrealistic to expect Ireland to buck this trend. Yet the narrative here has increasingly become "sure, they're all mixing out on the green, we need a full re-opening or else put the lazy teachers on covid payments". I just want people to ask what are the logistical reasons that have led us to not readily be able to countenance a full re-opening. I, for one, put the blame primarily at our neglect of the education system.

TBH, I think we may even be in a worse position to open than people realise too, especially if the airborne premise gains traction. In fairness, the school buildings the Department have been building in recent years are of an excellent standard, and should be able to mitigate against ventilation concerns, but the majority (vast?) of Irish primary schools anyway will be crippled if ventilation becomes a factor that has to be overcome.

wirelessdude01

downthemiddle wrote: »

There’s more to come. That was an interim document. The issuing of “guidelines” will continue ad infinitum. It’s what the department do best.

What the department do best is dropping circulars at about 5pm on a Friday. Then they want them implemented from the start of the next week!!!

History Queen

This article by Emma O'Kelly outlines the teacher/union/school vs. Dept. position pretty well.

https://www.rte.ie/amp/1151950/?__twitter_impression=true

Jimmy Garlic

This thread stinks of teachers wanting even more paid holidays. As if they didn’t have it soft enough already.

wirelessdude01

Jimmy Garlic wrote: »

This thread stinks of teachers wanting even more paid holidays. As if they didn’t have it soft enough already.

12 more weeks dotted around the existing school year to me strikes the right balance!!!

History Queen

Jimmy Garlic wrote: »

This thread stinks of teachers wanting even more paid holidays. As if they didn’t have it soft enough already.

Obviously you haven't read the thread or if you have, you haven't comprehended it. On the off chance that you genuinely believe teachers are "wanting even more paid holidays" and aren't just trolling....

Teachers are fully expecting to be back at work regardless of whether students are in the school buildings or not. It is easier for us if students are physically in front of us. We aren't trained or equipped (nationally) for blended learning. Students mostly aren't in a position to learn well that way either.

And as for the having it "soft enough already"... you clearly have never taught.

khalessi

markodaly wrote: »

I hear the teacher Unions want a guideline on how to open a door and how to pour a cup of tea.

Thank you for your input, we were missing trolling and teacher bashing and yours though not a first attempt, was about average standard but not a bad effort for someone incapable of understanding fact.

downthemiddle

Jimmy Garlic wrote: »

This thread stinks of teachers wanting even more paid holidays. As if they didn’t have it soft enough already.

The stink is clearly the garlic Jimmy!!!

khalessi

Jimmy Garlic wrote: »

This thread stinks of teachers wanting even more paid holidays. As if they didn’t have it soft enough already.

More an odour of stale unoriginal teacher bashing. I can't say good effort as it wasn't.

Treppen

daithi7 wrote: »

Tbh, I really get sick of total numbskulls, who are obviously not able to debate an issue such as why the Leaving Cert could not have been held, without getting personal & petty.

That I get sick of!!!

Teacher unions couldn't have done it. They were too busy working on Jeffrey Epstein assassination.

Treppen

Jimmy Garlic wrote: »

This thread stinks of teachers wanting even more paid holidays. As if they didn’t have it soft enough already.

Jesus theyre all out today. Waiting for MarkODal..... Ok .... Waiting for Salon Fire to chip in.

markodaly

History Queen wrote: »

France opened with classes capped at 15 students so not a full reopening as normal and then had issues with outbreaks

https://www.breakingnews.ie/world/70-cases-of-covid-19-linked-to-french-schools-days-after-reopening-1000165.html

Belgium didn't do social distancing at primary but did at secondary and only part time return at second level. They implemented temperature checks masks etc.

They also initially reopened their primary schools part time.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-belgium-schools/back-to-school-for-belgian-children-with-face-masks-and-temperature-checks-idUSKBN22R1ZJ

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/back-to-school-what-the-new-classroom-will-look-like-1.4285229

Yes, the key take away is that they have re-opened their schools, in some shape or fashion. That was my point all along. Yet we struggle to even try and get things open in September.

All of the above measures are being discussed for our reopening at the moment. We seem to be trying to open fully to everyone all of the time. As far as I'm aware no where in Europe, witha
similar classroom profile to us has done that successfully yet without additional safety measures, (safety measures is what unions/the dept are currently discussing). I could stand to be corrected on that. Let me know if there is a country that reopened as normal successfully.

What exactly do you mean by 'classroom profile'.

Isreal, though not in Europe, has a similar classroom profile to Ireland and their reopening of schools with minimal safety measures has been disasterous. We need to avoid this. The last thing we want is another lockdown.

I'll tell you this, if there is another countrywide lockdown, it will not be due to schools re-opening.

markodaly

timmy_mallet wrote: »

It's a as simple as a culture of covering your behind. Adversarilaism. Nobody will give an inch. Everybody puts the ball in each others court. "That's up the department of education to solve." "We are waiting for the government advice." None of them acting with a greater good in mind and working together to solve problems. If they worked in the private sector theyd have a different mindset or no jobs.

I kinda agree with that. Too much passing the buck going on here from one side to the other. To be fair Boards of Management are just as bad. The Department came out with high-level guidelines regarding exams and some BoM's appeared to want the whole thing planned and mapped out for them by someone else.

It is frightening in some way that people in Education cannot be agile, nimble and get things done, without have a grand plan of every i dotted and every t crossed.
Indicative of the Irish education system, that puts rote learning ahead of problem solving and collaboration.

lulublue22

markodaly wrote: »

I kinda agree with that. Too much passing the buck going on here from one side to the other. To be fair Boards of Management are just as bad. The Department came out with high-level guidelines regarding exams and some BoM's appeared to want the whole thing planned and mapped out for them by someone else.

It is frightening in some way that people in Education cannot be agile, nimble and get things done, without have a grand plan of every i dotted and every t crossed.
Indicative of the Irish education system, that puts rote learning ahead of problem solving and collaboration.

Perhaps you’ve missed your calling. You seem to have a clear grasp and indeed an in-depth understanding of the issue. Can you outline how you propose to facilitate schools opening given current HSE guidelines. Or indeed using France as you did for your example how schools can accommodate 15 children per class?
or again does that require too much original thought?

History Queen

markodaly wrote: »

Yes, the key take away is that they have re-opened their schools, in some shape or fashion. That was my point all along. Yet we struggle to even try and get things open in September.

What exactly do you mean by 'classroom profile'.

I'll tell you this, if there is another countrywide lockdown, it will not be due to schools re-opening.

The only people that can decide to reopen schools are the Department of Education. Discussions are ongoing as to how this can happen in line with public health advice. Direct your anger to the Department if it isn't happening as fast as you would wish.

By classroom profile I mean a lot of their classrooms are similarly overcrowded in smaller rooms like many Irish schools are.

History Queen

markodaly wrote: »

I kinda agree with that. Too much passing the buck going on here from one side to the other. To be fair Boards of Management are just as bad. The Department came out with high-level guidelines regarding exams and some BoM's appeared to want the whole thing planned and mapped out for them by someone else.

It is frightening in some way that people in Education cannot be agile, nimble and get things done, without have a grand plan of every i dotted and every t crossed.
Indicative of the Irish education system, that puts rote learning ahead of problem solving and collaboration.

The fact that you clearly don't know the function and make up of the BOM explains why you don't understand that it's not about choice. The Department of Education are the only ones mandated to open schools and make decisions on education provision. And the fact that you think the exam guidelines (assuming you're referring to LC debacle) were high level guidanxe shows you don't have any understanding of education or haven't read the material.

markodaly

History Queen wrote: »

So you want schools to open without guidance?

Is that what I said. No, clearly not.
It, of course, depends on the guidelines and the depth of them

It is a puzzle to me why the Dept. of Education has to issue these guidelines in the first place. After all, this is a health emergency, so they have zero expertise here. The guidelines on schools should be coming from the relevant health bodies and then be done with it.

Because that's the alternative.

Ah, yes. In some peoples world, it is either no guidelines or guidelines coming out of every ear and orifice.

Unions have asked questions re guidance AND offered solutions. The Dept don't want to use these solutions as they feel they will cost too much to implement.

Have you looked at the guidance issued last week by the HSE? It'd be worth looking at to see what schools are being asked to do and then look at your local school and identify just how much of the guidance will be difficult to implement.

To comply with it schools need the Dept to commit to funding for schools. More guidance is expected as many issues aren't addressed in the guidance such as the scenario with substitute teachers/second level issues such as moving classes/what to do when there isn't a room in the school available for isolation etc

Oh, so the Dept. did offer guidelines and the HSE too, but... surprise surprise Unions and teachers take issue with them. "Give us more money!" seems to be the solution.

markodaly

lulublue22 wrote: »

Perhaps you’ve missed your calling. You seem to have a clear grasp and indeed an in-depth understanding of the issue. Can you outline how you propose to facilitate schools opening given current HSE guidelines. Or indeed using France as you did for your example how schools can accommodate 15 children per class?
or again does that require too much original thought?

15 per class? Split the class into two. A morning session and afternoon session, for each group, with deep cleaning in between. I am sure you will find a problem with it of course. A cynic can always find a problem. Got to dot those i's and cross those t's but I would not let perfect be the enemy of the good.

I am sure there would be some edge cases where alternative arrangements need to be found, but got after the low hanging fruit first.

Besides, do we need to reinvent the wheel here, how are other countries in the world doing and faring?

markodaly

History Queen wrote: »

By classroom profile I mean a lot of their classrooms are similarly overcrowded in smaller rooms like many Irish schools are.

Id like to see some actual statistics on that. Are our physical classrooms that much smaller than others. Are we an outlier, or are we taking a few edge cases and letting them be the blocker for the rest?

lulublue22

markodaly wrote: »

Is that what I said. No, clearly not.
It, of course, depends on the guidelines and the depth of them

It is a puzzle to me why the Dept. of Education has to issue these guidelines in the first place. After all, this is a health emergency, so they have zero expertise here. The guidelines on schools should be coming from the relevant health bodies and then be done with it.

Ah, yes. In some peoples world, it is either no guidelines or guidelines coming out of every ear and orifice.

Oh, so the Dept. did offer guidelines and the HSE too, but... surprise surprise Unions and teachers take issue with them. "Give us more money!" seems to be the solution.

Can you explain how schools can physically implement the HSE guidelines to ensure that all schools re open fully in September ?
Hint the word physically probably gives it away. Or are you simply jumping on the bandwagon without actually being aware of the issue ?

History Queen

markodaly wrote: »

Is that what I said. No, clearly not.
It, of course, depends on the guidelines and the depth of them

It is a puzzle to me why the Dept. of Education has to issue these guidelines in the first place. After all, this is a health emergency, so they have zero expertise here. The guidelines on schools should be coming from the relevant health bodies and then be done with it.

Ah, yes. In some peoples world, it is either no guidelines or guidelines coming out of every ear and orifice.

Oh, so the Dept. did offer guidelines and the HSE too, but... surprise surprise Unions and teachers take issue with them. "Give us more money!" seems to be the solution.

They (guidelines fromHSE) are unworkable in current school settings if the Dept are going to have all students back. My classroom for example cannot accomodate any of my classes and have 1m social distancing as required by the guidelines. How do you propose that issue be resolved?

lulublue22

markodaly wrote: »

15 per class? Split the class into two. A morning session and afternoon session, for each group, with deep cleaning in between. I am sure you will find a problem with it of course. A cynic can always find a problem. Got to dot those i's and cross those t's but I would not let perfect be the enemy of the good.

I am sure there would be some edge cases where alternative arrangements need to be found, but got after the low hanging fruit first.

Besides, do we need to reinvent the wheel here, how are other countries in the world doing and faring?

No I wont but I presume working parents will . Newsflash this option did not go down well and surprise surprise it wasn’t teachers who weren’t happy. Perhaps you should have a read of the thread ?

History Queen

markodaly wrote: »

15 per class? Split the class into two. A morning session and afternoon session, for each group, with deep cleaning in between. I am sure you will find a problem with it of course. A cynic can always find a problem. Got to dot those i's and cross those t's but I would not let perfect be the enemy of the good.

I am sure there would be some edge cases where alternative arrangements need to be found, but got after the low hanging fruit first.

Besides, do we need to reinvent the wheel here, how are other countries in the world doing and faring?

the issue is they want all students back all the time. You don't even understand the issue that you are pontificating on.

History Queen

markodaly wrote: »

Id like to see some actual statistics on that. Are our physical classrooms that much smaller than others. Are we an outlier, or are we taking a few edge cases and letting them be the blocker for the rest?

Well my classroom is an over 20 year old prefab. Not the modern kind with the built in toilets just a standalone room (we have 4 of these onsite). A colleague of mine is teaching in a converted storage room and can only fit 26 students in two long narrow rows.

Not sure where/if you could find statistics on classroom sizes. Think there's a document about spec for new build classroom spec. Modern schools will have more spacious facilities but we are awaiting a new school having been approved for one 6 years ago. Lots of schools are the same.or have modern extensions alonside older buildings. Plans haven't even be drawn up for our new school yet.

Boggles

markodaly wrote: »

15 per class? Split the class into two. A morning session and afternoon session,

Jaysus Mark fair play, you have cracked it. Pity you didn't wander into the thread earlier.

That solution will suit everyone universally.

downthemiddle

markodaly wrote: »

I kinda agree with that. Too much passing the buck going on here from one side to the other. To be fair Boards of Management are just as bad. The Department came out with high-level guidelines regarding exams and some BoM's appeared to want the whole thing planned and mapped out for them by someone else.

It is frightening in some way that people in Education cannot be agile, nimble and get things done, without have a grand plan of every i dotted and every t crossed.
Indicative of the Irish education system, that puts rote learning ahead of problem solving and collaboration.

One of the keys to problem solving is to identify what the problem is. It is a pity you are looking for solutions to the wrong problem.

wirelessdude01

Weren't we told previously that splitting classes wasn't being considered or did I just dream that?

The argument for getting everyone back is that it suits families where both parents work the traditional 9-5. How does splitting classes suit them?

Bananaleaf

markodaly wrote: »

15 per class? Split the class into two. A morning session and afternoon session, for each group, with deep cleaning in between.

Not having a go at you at all here, just genuinely trying to understand.

I teach from 9 until 4. Let's say 9-3 not including breaks

Is your suggestion that I would teach half my students 9-3, deep clean takes place from 3-4 lets say (cleaner does this so I have time for my break then) and then I teach the other half of my classes from 4 until 10pm. Students get the 40mins contact time per subject that they are entitled to, but you would have teachers working double the hrs they are contracted to (and I know you wont like this, but we would be expected to be paid for that!)

Or is your suggestion that I would teach half the class for half the time. So, do 9-12 with first half. I lunch for an hr while the place is deep cleaned. Then teach from 1-4pm? No need for any extra pay here for teachers. No additional cost to the state. But you have slashed educational provision for your child in half and they are now receiving 20mins instruction per subject. About enough time to correct the homework, take the register and ask them to pack up!

Or is your suggestion that I do either the morning session and another teacher does the evening session or vice versa? In which case you are looking at doubling the workforce. All those extra teachers (if they could be found) would need to be paid too

I'm post-primary by the way.

I actually think your suggestion about halving the students and the timetable/day is, in theory, not bad and I think if worked on (would take mammoth planning, not just within schools but amongst families) it could be a runner in secondary schools. But not with 12hr working days - with an hr break in between. You wouldnt just be requiring teachers to be at work from 9am until 10pm, you would be expecting students to to be there that long too. And remember, you are only giving them one break. At 3pm. That would be unreasonable and I'm sure that isnt what you're suggesting either. But the problem with it is that while I have 15 with me, the other 15 have to be somewhere else in the building with another teacher. Space is going to be a problem. The other 15 wouldnt just be at home waiting to come into my class. Not the way secondary school works anyway

Maybe a reduced timetable of sorts - just thinking out loud here but maybe scrap all the non exam classes (wellbeing, IT, sphe) and get rid of all the short course stuff to make it more streamlined. At senior cycle scrap the non exam religion, PE, careers classes. I am aware that this isnt ideal and that you're effectively removing the holistic element of schooling, which isn't good. Another option might be to take a class period a week off some subjects to reduce the timetable somewhat. Just thinking out loud and trying to get a constructive conversation with you going.