How will schools be able to go back in September?

normanoffside wrote: »

Yes, staff are included in the memos I have seen.

These 'memos' currently have no legal standing. Just some private schools throwing their weight around.

average_runner

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

These 'memos' currently have no legal standing. Just some private schools throwing their weight around.

The 14 day thing is a good idea.

average_runner wrote: »

The 14 day thing is a good idea.

Agree it is a good idea but has no legal standing for their staff that are paid by the dept. Those paid privately by the school could have it written into their contract for this year. As for the students, I'd imagine one parent threatening legal action would blow it out the door.

thomasdylan

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Agree it is a good idea but has no legal standing for their staff that are paid by the dept. Those paid privately by the school could have it written into their contract for this year. As for the students, I'd imagine one parent threatening legal action would blow it out the door.

No legal action will be taken over that.

And in the HSE have been told if coming back from abroad there will be unpaid 14 days self-isolation.

average_runner

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Agree it is a good idea but has no legal standing for their staff that are paid by the dept. Those paid privately by the school could have it written into their contract for this year. As for the students, I'd imagine one parent threatening legal action would blow it out the door.

Oh could u imagine the PR if teachers didnt follow it. 14 days unpaid also.

Nurses on the frontline following it.

ldy4mxonucwsq6

normanoffside wrote: »

Yes, staff are included in the memos I have seen.

Do you know if the 14 day period applies just to the policies being drawn up by private schools or to all schools?

I have zero knowledge of private schools but can they just refuse admission if they want to?

As things stand currently I wouldn't have a problem with something like this being introduced across the board (have no plans to head abroad myself for the foreseeable).

It could mitigate the risk from travel related cases and if people want to have that holiday well then they'll need to sacrifice the two weeks of self isolation on return.

Isn't the current advice that this should be done anyway on arrival to Ireland until our "airbridges" are authorised (just that it's not really being enforced)?

Seeing what's happening in other countries that had things controlled and now travel is causing big numbers of imported cases for some of them. I'd be happy to forego travel abroad indefinitely tbh but I'd feel better if we had some serious quarantine for arrivals here too.

normanoffside

Zahir Bitter Cellist wrote: »

Do you know if the 14 day period applies just to the policies being drawn up by private schools or to all schools?

Just some private schools doing it off their own bat. It's not in any way national policy but I am saying it could be a good idea to give everyone confidence.

Some Boarding schools are running a 'quarantine camp' for international students and asking them to come over 2 weeks before schools starts back and stay inside the school for those 14 days before the 'locals' come in.
Meanwhile the Irish kids have to have been 14 days in the country so it all seems equal.

The schools I have seen are applying it to all International and Irish kids so as not to appear to be discriminating.

KerryConnor wrote: »

See attached government expenditure on education by Country - you can see ireland is well down - literally the lowest expenditure along with Romania.

Measuring anything against GDP in Ireland gives false outcomes, due to the nature of our economy.
That is why we use GNI now.

the corpo wrote: »

Sam McConkey on with Ivan Yates this evening, again not dismissing that the likes of Denmark have reopened and we can follow their example. This is fine, and great for them, but I don't understand how it's possible to compare like with like.

The average Danish class size is 19 pupils, and I imagine they don't have their kids shoved into not fit for purpose buildings. Is it not the case that we are in a radically more difficult position to reopen than the rest of Europe because our schools and capacity are dramatically different?

I just get tired of the wasted air time citing how the rest of Europe is doing it, just get on with it, when they should be asking how have we allowed the Irish school system to fall so far behind. Seems to me like screaming at the teachers that they need to be put on Covid payments to wise them up rather than getting irate at the Department to fix the root problems is such wasted energy.

In fairness, there is a lot of 'Ireland is sooooo different to Europe', being pouted about here.
For example class sizes.

Irish class sizes for primary are similar to those of France and Belgium to take one example, yet they have been open since last month.

Secondary is even better and we are one of the best nations in the EU when it comes to class sizes.

So, yea the whole class size thing as a singular excuse does not hold water.

My own opinion, it seems the Unions and the Dept are populated with imbeciles who cannot act in a crisis and need to have a meeting after meeting and report after report drawn up to actually execute any change or plan. Next they will have a plan to wipe ones behind for us.

This is probably down to years and years of trench warfare between the two, that now once we have an actual crisis that necessitates quick thinking and actual competence in the job, its sadly lacking in all quarters.

Am I correct in saying that Ireland is one of the few countries in the EU that have yet to re-open their schools?
Most of the EU has been back since May, but we are still talking about September being too soon?

That tells you all you need to know about the Unions, teachers and the Dept of Education and the lack of competent leadership among them all. Someone should do a Phd on this cluster****.

markodaly wrote: »

In fairness, there is a lot of 'Ireland is sooooo different to Europe', being pouted about here.
For example class sizes.

Irish class sizes for primary are similar to those of France and Belgium to take one example, yet they have been open since last month.

Secondary is even better and we are one of the best nations in the EU when it comes to class sizes.

So, yea the whole class size thing as a singular excuse does not hold water.

France opened with classes capped at 15 students so not a full reopening as normal and then had issues with outbreaks

https://www.breakingnews.ie/world/70-cases-of-covid-19-linked-to-french-schools-days-after-reopening-1000165.html

Belgium didn't do social distancing at primary but did at secondary and only part time return at second level. They implemented temperature checks masks etc.

They also initially reopened their primary schools part time.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-belgium-schools/back-to-school-for-belgian-children-with-face-masks-and-temperature-checks-idUSKBN22R1ZJ

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/back-to-school-what-the-new-classroom-will-look-like-1.4285229

If you're going to compare at least compare the way in which they opened also.

All of the above measures are being discussed for our reopening at the moment. We seem to be trying to open fully to everyone all of the time. As far as I'm aware no where in Europe, witha
similar classroom profile to us has done that successfully yet without additional safety measures, (safety measures is what unions/the dept are currently discussing). I could stand to be corrected on that. Let me know if there is a country that reopened as normal successfully.

Isreal, though not in Europe, has a similar classroom profile to Ireland and their reopening of schools with minimal safety measures has been disasterous. We need to avoid this. The last thing we want is another lockdown.

markodaly wrote: »

Am I correct in saying that Ireland is one of the few countries in the EU that have yet to re-open their schools?
Most of the EU has been back since May, but we are still talking about September being too soon?

That tells you all you need to know about the Unions, teachers and the Dept of Education and the lack of competent leadership among them all. Someone should do a Phd on this cluster****.

Only the Department of Education can decide to open schools. Blaming teachers and Unions shows you have a fundamental lack of understanding of how the education system works.

timmy_mallet

markodaly wrote: »

My own opinion, it seems the Unions and the Dept are populated with imbeciles who cannot act in a crisis and need to have a meeting after meeting and report after report drawn up to actually execute any change or plan. Next they will have a plan to wipe ones behind for us.

This is probably down to years and years of trench warfare between the two, that now once we have an actual crisis that necessitates quick thinking and actual competence in the job, its sadly lacking in all quarters.

Am I correct in saying that Ireland is one of the few countries in the EU that have yet to re-open their schools?
Most of the EU has been back since May, but we are still talking about September being too soon?

That tells you all you need to know about the Unions, teachers and the Dept of Education and the lack of competent leadership among them all. Someone should do a Phd on this cluster****.

It's a as simple as a culture of covering your behind. Adversarilaism. Nobody will give an inch. Everybody puts the ball in each others court. "That's up the department of education to solve." "We are waiting for the government advice." None of them acting with a greater good in mind and working together to solve problems. If they worked in the private sector theyd have a different mindset or no jobs.

timmy_mallet

History Queen wrote: »

Only the Department of Education can decide to open schools. Blaming teachers and Unions shows you have a fundamental lack of understanding of how the education system works.

Well the unions will ballot their members (as they've done already without debate) to reject the advice. "Covid safety guarantee". So to suggest it's just the DoE is not quite right.

timmy_mallet wrote: »

It's a as simple as a culture of covering your behind. Adversarilaism. Nobody will give an inch. Everybody puts the ball in each others court. "That's up the department of education to solve." "We are waiting for the government advice." None of them acting with a greater good in mind and working together to solve problems. If they worked in the private sector theyd have a different mindset or no jobs.

Unions, principals, teachers have all submitted possible solutions to the Dept of Education. Direct your anger and frustration in the right direction.

timmy_mallet wrote: »

Well the unions will ballot their members (as they've done already without debate) to reject the advice. "Covid safety guarantee". So to suggest it's just the DoE is not quite right.

None of the unions are balloting or have balloted their members (on this issue). Do you know what a ballot is?

Benimar

Lads, ye are arguing with someone who can’t find Belgium on a map!

I wouldn’t bother tbh.

Boggles

markodaly wrote: »

So, yea the whole class size thing as a singular excuse does not hold water.

"Data" from 2005?

:pac:

timmy_mallet wrote: »

Well the unions will ballot their members (as they've done already without debate) to reject the advice. "Covid safety guarantee". So to suggest it's just the DoE is not quite right.

When did any or all of the three teacher unions ballot their members in this issue? Stop making stuff up. Also very apparent that in reality you have no clue how the education system in Ireland works.

timmy_mallet

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

When did any or all of the three teacher unions ballot their members in this issue? Stop making stuff up. Also very apparent that in reality you have no clue how the education system in Ireland works.

Ok...

History Queen wrote: »

Unions, principals, teachers have all submitted possible solutions to the Dept of Education. Direct your anger and frustration in the right direction.

All of the suggestions/ideas contained in them have been ignored as they require the government to provide funding.

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

All of the suggestions/ideas contained in them have been ignored as they require the government to provide funding.

Exactly.

lulublue22

timmy_mallet wrote: »

It's a as simple as a culture of covering your behind. Adversarilaism. Nobody will give an inch. Everybody puts the ball in each others court. "That's up the department of education to solve." "We are waiting for the government advice." None of them acting with a greater good in mind and working together to solve problems. If they worked in the private sector theyd have a different mindset or no jobs.

Seriously - the best you can do is allude to the private sector. I would be very interested in a list of private sector employers who facilitate/ allow employees(teachers) and or managers (principals) to dictate policy and run the buisness however they feel like it. Dep is responsible for the running of schools. Schools are bound to implement policy dictated by Dep. They don't get to chose what they like and don't like.

I haven't the time or patience to add links for you but if you are genuinely interested in how schools can reopen safely in September and not simply Teachers bad , unions bad public sector bad then there are numerous sources which highlight how the INTO and IPPN have engaged with the process.

If you bother to read the thread you will also see how at a local level schools are trying to get ahead of this and trying to have some sort of contingency plan based on the HSE advice that is available at present and or possible scenarios the dep may come up with. Of course no one acknowledges this commitment because it doesn't suit the narrative.

Sammy2012

I was listening to Josepha Madigan speak on the Tonight Show with Ivan Yates on Tuesday. She said guidelines will soon be published to help wong reopening. Were guidelines not published last week to aid with this? Is there more guidelines to come?

History Queen wrote: »

Only the Department of Education can decide to open schools. Blaming teachers and Unions shows you have a fundamental lack of understanding of how the education system works.

It is, of course, convenient to blame all and sundry on the department of Education. Sure the department can open schools tomorrow, nothing stopping them per se, but then the next question from the intransigence Unions will be a tome of guidelines and policies for every such eventuality, which of courses takes a lot of time, effort, talking, more time, money, yet more talking, negotiations and then agreement.

Put it this way, every other sector of the country is open to some degree, apart from schools. So, are the people working in the Dept. of Education less able then any other department say in Health or Social Welfare, or is there something else going on?

The teacher Unions have a reputation for being quite difficult so one can draw its own conclusions as to why in July Ireland is one of the few countries in the world that still haven't re-opened it schools.