charlie14 wrote: » I really do not know what the significance the "Up to 85,000" is to you.
charlie14 wrote: » If it had been 80% lower at 17,000, do you believe we should not have had lockdown ?
Arghus wrote: » But they were told to not ignore symptoms of stroke and heart attack and to contact GPs or seek treatment, all the time, everyday. It was made abundantly clear. Nobody said these people should avoid hospitals if they needed treatment. You can't blame them if people chose not to heed their advice.
mcsean2163 wrote: » That's an exaggeration. Public sector workers, multinational workers, etc. have been fine by and large. ��
VillageIdiot71 wrote: » I expect you know that the important part of that, for me and for many, is "that value was never going to be reached". We have poll-axed our societies. Truly, we've destroyed the World while pretending to save it.
SeaBreezes wrote: » You know Covid19 causes strokes/heart attacks with blood clotting, right?
cnocbui wrote: » And just as easy to speculate lockdown caused a number of deaths, given some specialists pleading with the public to not ignore symptoms of stroke and heart attack, which likely was prompted by fewer such admissions presenting than normal.
Arghus wrote: » It was stated again and again in the media, by the HSE, the DoH, the CMO, every doctor or specialist I heard mentioned it. Frequently repeated in the press briefings. Even the link you provided proves what I'm saying - it has the CMO saying it again. The message was loud and clear. If you are trying to argue different you are mistaken.
cnocbui wrote: » How were they told?https://www.thesun.ie/news/5360394/coronavirus-in-ireland-stokes-heart-attacks-cancer-untreated-fears/
HUNDREDS of strokes and heart attacks have gone untreated and thousands of cancer cases undiagnosed since the Covid-19 lockdown started, an Irish Sun investigation has revealed. Amid global warnings that thousands of patients could die of other illnesses during lockdown, experts are urging people to get themselves checked. The Irish Heart Foundation believes up to half of heart attack and stroke victims in Ireland could be avoiding seeking treatment. It means that in the five weeks alone, approximately 350 strokes and 280 heart attacks have gone untreated. ... The HSE’s Chief Medical Officer, Dr Tony Holohan, has spoken of his fears over secondary deaths after a non-virus related health scare saw him seek medical attention at Dublin’s St James’s Hospital. The top doc was surprised to see the hospital so empty. And he warned the public not to avoid going to hospital for conditions that are not Covid-19 related, as officials worry about an increase in “secondary deaths” in the coming months. He said: “Many people are staying away from hospitals that should not stay away. “I didn’t ignore symptoms I had and I’m advising the public to not ignore their symptoms. In February, before the Covid-19 outbreak in Ireland, 21,713 on average attended hospitals across the country every week. Since the boom in infection cases began in early March, this has plummeted to just 11,756 people last week. ... A UK doctor warned that 50,000 cancer patients could die prematurely if lockdown lasts six months. Oncologist Prof Karol Sikora fears thousands of people are today unknowingly living with symptoms of a disease that are going undiagnosed because of the pandemic - that will eventually kill them. Prof Sikora, chief medical officer at Rutherford Health and former head of the World Health Organisation’s cancer programme, admitted: “If this continues for six months, I suspect that in the years to come there will be at least 50,000 excess cancer deaths. That is a terrifying number.
charlie14 wrote: » If you read what HIQA said it is more likely that their report is entirely unreliable. It is more speculative than scientific. Sounds more like them taking a cut at the HSE for laying some blame at their door for nursing home deaths. HIQA didn`t even do any research themselves. Research by two universities using the same source as HIQA, RIP.ie found that for April at the height of our outbreak that for three counties deaths for April had doubled, and many others had deaths 50% and more higher. It is as easy to speculate that the numbers of deaths from Covid-19 do not tally with excess death because lockdown saved deaths from other causes.
Breezin wrote: » So the data is entirely unreliable, and much of the comparative discussion is meaningless. We know nothing. So Trump and co may not be complete a-holes (controversial! -- we all know that they are anyway), but also our lot may not be complete heroes, in spite of the cult of personality mysteriously constructed around them. Which also, of course, calls into question the ever more zealous certitude with which Sweden's approach is pilloried by lockdown hardliners.
VillageIdiot71 wrote: » So do I, which is why I'm not one of the people trying to discount the significant immediate and long term damage to lives caused by the lockdown. Can we at least agree "Up to 85,000" was fake news?
is_that_so wrote: » That's too simplistic. It was a set of predictions based on an unmitigated 33% increase, a level that was prevalent at the beginning of this, but which fell away quite quickly. As a result that value was never going to be be reached but for a brief moment in time the possibility existed.
Bridge93 wrote: » Reports today suggest Ireland could be over reporting by as much as nearly 30%. The United States haven’t included numbers beyond those confirmed dead in a hospital environment for the most part, they’re massively understating. The numbers aren’t remotely comparable
charlie14 wrote: » You appear not to think so, but for myself I would look at a couple of thousand deaths as a "Big Deal".
VillageIdiot71 wrote: » Yeah, and didn't get anything like 170,000 deaths is the point - which, again, there's now a political imperative to justify. So we have to pretend that Sweden possibly having a couple of thousand more deaths is the Big Deal we were trying to avoid. Whereas, quite conceivably, it will be balanced by increased mortality from other ailments and many hundreds of thousands of lives damaged for many years to come.
AlmightyCushion wrote: » The 85,000 deaths was based on us doing absolutely nothing and carrying on as normal. Whilst Sweden didn't lock down as much as us, they certainly didn't carry on as normal.
hmmm wrote: » E.g. Belgium are top of the charts for deaths, but they are recording large numbers of "suspected" deaths even where the person tested negative - in reality they are over-counting, and are doing much better than the stats would suggest.
VillageIdiot71 wrote: » Interesting. I expect there's a strong political interest in getting the Irish figures down. Otherwise, it looks like we banjaxed the economy for very little gain. And, of course, no country is anywhere close to the scaremongering fake news "up to 85,000 deaths in Ireland" claimed originally by Leo. If that was true, Sweden should be well on the way to 170,000 deaths. Its like that quote from the Vietnam War "we had to destroy the village in order to save it". We've destroyed our country. For what?
