How will schools be able to go back in September?

thomasdylan wrote: »

https://mobile.twitter.com/apsmunro/status/1278714280448319489

A very good summary of the information available so far on the return to school.

Should be mostly reassuring reading.

Really interesting read. The article that thread referenced that went through what steps schools took to prevent spread is also interesting and shows the importance of increased hygiene/health and safety measures. That's all we are looking for.

The successful regions all implemented some sort of increased health and hygiene protocols. Isreal then, where they are having issues with new school related cases, seem not to have. I need to read up on it more as I'm not familiar with their education system.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8406723/amp/Secondary-schools-resume-Spain-Netherlands-South-Africa.html?__twitter_impression=true

thomasdylan wrote: »

https://mobile.twitter.com/apsmunro/status/1278714280448319489

A very good summary of the information available so far on the return to school.

Should be mostly reassuring reading.

Yes twitter is where I go for medical advice.

There are actual interim documents to look at from the HSE for example

thomasdylan wrote: »

I don't think working two weeks extra because of a once in a generation global pandemic would have set a precedent.

The thing is years of erosion of the relationship between the Department and teachers means that these things need to be spelled out.

thomasdylan wrote: »

I don't think working two weeks extra because of a once in a generation global pandemic would have set a precedent.

Well having watched how the Dept deal with every situation you have to be careful. As wireless dude said if the the Department said the sky was blue, you would check.

https://mobile.twitter.com/apsmunro/status/1278714280448319489

A very good summary of the information available so far on the return to school.

Should be mostly reassuring reading.

History Queen wrote: »

That was when they (the two second level teaching unions) were encouraging teachers to volunteer the month of June to being available to LC students and commit to two yearsface to face teaching in July prior to the deferred exams. That statement was in relation to being questioned on whether teachers would be setting a precedent for working more weeks without pay if I recall correctly. The unions were adament that this be recognised as goodwill/voluntary not a change of working conditions. Just providing context as the quote can be misconstrued to make people think teachers were refusing to work. That wasn't the case.

I don't think working two weeks extra because of a once in a generation global pandemic would have set a precedent.

thomasdylan wrote: »

That must be 10+ years ago.

There has been a huge difference between the attitudes shown by the ASTI on one side and the INMO and the IMO.

'No teacher will be required to do anything' was what the ASTI said in April about leaving cert preparations.

That was when they (the two second level teaching unions) were encouraging teachers to volunteer the month of June to being available to LC students and commit to two yearsface to face teaching in July prior to the deferred exams. That statement was in relation to being questioned on whether teachers would be setting a precedent for working more weeks without pay if I recall correctly. The unions were adament that this be recognised as goodwill/voluntary not a change of working conditions. Just providing context as the quote can be misconstrued to make people think teachers were refusing to work. That wasn't the case.

I don't know why I'm defending the ASTI. I often think they are needlessly abrasive and confrontational when softer words would get the job done quicker. Often soundbites from them fan the flames rather than quench them because they are blunt and even taken in context send the wrong message. Not saying my own union are faultless, TUI often are seen to capitulate too quickly when they should stand their ground. Anyway that's an argument for another day!

khalessi wrote: »

Really they were when I was nursing, masks gloves white aprons and patients in side rooms where possible. If not now sad to see it going backwards. ALso used them dealing with Clos.Diff.

That must be 10+ years ago.

There has been a huge difference between the attitudes shown by the ASTI on one side and the INMO and the IMO.

'No teacher will be required to do anything' was what the ASTI said in April about leaving cert preparations.

John Lahart TD made a point about the need for a level playing field that schools going back while the Dail only has 20 people in it and needing the convention centre which holds 2000 to accomodate 160, that it might help to see a half Dail convening in September, hence he gets the challenges.

So the Dail dont see themselves back fully in September, yet expect others to go back, interesting.

thomasdylan wrote: »

Masks aren't used for MRSA.

Really they were when I was nursing, masks gloves white aprons and patients in side rooms where possible. If not now sad to see it going backwards. ALso used them dealing with Clos.Diff.

khalessi wrote: »

The PPE I am refering to is the usual masks gloves and aprons that we nurses used to wear dealing with MRSA patients. And it was beefed to the covid PPE which I was referring to. As a nurse when I was doing dressings etc I wore the standard ppe to prevent cross infection.

Masks aren't used for MRSA.

richardw001 wrote: »

I'm just a parent - but I saw a comment "it would look empty, because ASTI members would not be there under the current advice" - which I have to say made me a bit cross.

My understanding is that most people - teachers and parents - are accepting of whatever the Government and Health authorities guidance is going to be.

And I haven't heard anything like this from other unions over the last 3 months (nurses etc.) that would be under considerable more risk. And however bad the Department of Education is - look at the Department of Health !

If the majority of that union that do have a concern - could they not just wear full PPE like has been said ? or just go on the covid unemployment payment if they feel the heath authority advice isn't correct?

Has there been a vote in that union above saying that they have the last say on whether the schools open ?

Everyone is entitled to as safe a workplace as is possible - but I think the kind of statements (I would even say threats) that some unions are making really arent helpful.

I heard that too but that was in answer to what a classroom with 30 children an sna and a teacher would look like in September. According to the guidelines issued, it would be empty as no classroom in the country can accomodate that while adhering to 1m distancing. The rooms are not physically big enough.

Ciaran Christie was replying to a politician who in fairness was genuinely trying to understand the issues and I think he (Christie) was a bit frustrated that they didn't seem to understand just how overcrowded some of our classrooms are and how some of the guidelines cannot work with full cohorts of students. He could have phrased it better and was blunt but if we adheare to the guidance issued, most classrooms would be empty in that circumstance (or the class split in to smaller groups).

Edit: Obviously I can't speak for every classroom but I've never been in a classroom that big and I've taught in a few schools.

thomasdylan wrote: »

This isn't true. It was only towards the end of April that nurses were allowed to wear masks when in contact with patients without Covid. Before that masks were only to be used in patients with COVID or suspected COVID.

The PPE I am refering to is the usual masks gloves and aprons that we nurses used to wear dealing with MRSA patients. And it was beefed to the covid PPE which I was referring to. As a nurse when I was doing dressings etc I wore the standard ppe to prevent cross infection.

khalessi wrote: »

The reason you didnt hear anything about it from the Nurses Union, is because ppe and restrictions were already in place and were upgraded, without having to be persuaded. They spent millions shipping in PPE and setting up wards hiring hotels etc.

This isn't true. It was only towards the end of April that nurses were allowed to wear masks when in contact with patients without Covid. Before that masks were only to be used in patients with COVID or suspected COVID.

s1ippy

No representation by FORSA and 3 bullet points in the guidance about special needs pupils really is the icing on the cake.

Just a reminder that teachers and SNAs in special schools all over the country are in school this week providing summer camps for children with the highest level of need.

In case everyone had completely forgotten them in the clamour to sh!t on teachers.

An unfortunate statement from the ASTI head today raised the hackles of many parents .

I can see how teachers are stressed and wanting clarity but parents are equally stressed and need clarity
It made me sad today at the Dail committee that TDs acknowledged the teachers role over that last few months but no one acknowledged the parents role
The parents also played a huge part in trying to keep the children focused and educated .

BonsaiKitten

Van.Bosch wrote: »

Guards have to work without PPE and in close contact with each other and people. Why would teachers be different, they should be back in early August for catchup from last year to try and get the next year off to as best a start as possible.

This isn’t an anti teacher rant - I’m sure lots of teachers would see the benefits of that for the kids. Teachers are being paid anyway.

Yeah, not over summer we're not. The salary covers termtime only but gets split over 12 months. Quite happy to do a few extra weeks if they pay me properly - though I can't see the Govt going for it!

BonsaiKitten

Just thinking about my classroom now, I don't think I could manage 1m distance between pods. I could just about do it but it's quite a big class, the room is a very awkward shape and pushing the table groups out to the far corners will mean many kids can't see the board. Can't see that being popular with parents.

I am happy to go back myself but any parent of a kid in my class will have to accept that unless the Dept of Ed are going to build me a new classroom over summer, social distancing can't exist in my room. Some will have no problem I am sure, others won't like it. If kids get sick, am I to blame for not magically expanding the room?

There must be teachers all over the country in similar positions. Will be a very interesting August/September for sure...

Van.Bosch wrote: »

Guards have to work without PPE and in close contact with each other and people. Why would teachers be different, they should be back in early August for catchup from last year to try and get the next year off to as best a start as possible.

This isn’t an anti teacher rant - I’m sure lots of teachers would see the benefits of that for the kids. Teachers are been paid anyway.

Guards asked for ppe and were refused nd not happy about it.Bus drivers also asked. Teachers arent special but they should be treated the same as everyone else for example since everyone else uses it, shops and people who work in pubs. We are back in August

Van.Bosch

Guards have to work without PPE and in close contact with each other and people. Why would teachers be different, they should be back in early August for catchup from last year to try and get the next year off to as best a start as possible.

This isn’t an anti teacher rant - I’m sure lots of teachers would see the benefits of that for the kids. Teachers are being paid anyway.

wirelessdude01

I think the parents need to be aware that teachers want to be back but that we don't trust our department enough. If they were to.tell.me that the sky was blue I'd look out the window to confirm. That have form for not supporting education with enough resources. If there is a shortcut to be taken then they will plough through it as quick as they can. People need to realise the reason why schools feel the need to look for voluntary contributions from parents. Why is it that teachers in alot of schools have to bring in their own cleaning products. Thanks u don't see nurses bringing in their own CIF to clean tables, desks and sinks. The ASTI probably went about it with the wrong choice of words today but that was a shot across the table of the dept that they need to step up and actually engage with the people on the ground. Their approach of sticking their collective heads in the sand will not word in this instance. We as educators are crying out for some guidance.

richardw001 wrote: »

I'm just a parent - but I saw a comment "it would look empty, because ASTI members would not be there under the current advice" - which I have to say made me a bit cross.

My understanding is that most people - teachers and parents - are accepting of whatever the Government and Health authorities guidance is going to be.

And I haven't heard anything like this from other unions over the last 3 months (nurses etc.) that would be under considerable more risk. And however bad the Department of Education is - look at the Department of Health !

If the majority of that union that do have a concern - could they not just wear full PPE like has been said ? or just go on the covid unemployment payment if they feel the heath authority advice isn't correct?

Has there been a vote in that union above saying that they have the last say on whether the schools open ?

Everyone is entitled to as safe a workplace as is possible - but I think the kind of statements (I would even say threats) that some unions are making really arent helpful.

The reason you didnt hear anything about it from the Nurses Union, is because ppe and restrictions were already in place and were upgraded, without having to be persuaded. They spent millions shipping in PPE and setting up wards hiring hotels etc.

The Departement offered to centrally buy soap. So forgive the unions if they are worried but it needs to be said. Like you say everyone is entitled to safe workspace and for teachers the only way it will be got is if noise is made to bring it to the attention of public and Dept. They are trying to protect staff and your children and mine.

The Dept were also supposed to issue guideline a fornight ago but didnt spoke instead of aspirations and bespoke solutions. Instead guideline issued by HSE

richardw001

I'm just a parent - but I saw a comment "it would look empty, because ASTI members would not be there under the current advice" - which I have to say made me a bit cross.

My understanding is that most people - teachers and parents - are accepting of whatever the Government and Health authorities guidance is going to be.

And I haven't heard anything like this from other unions over the last 3 months (nurses etc.) that would be under considerable more risk. And however bad the Department of Education is - look at the Department of Health !

If the majority of that union that do have a concern - could they not just wear full PPE like has been said ? or just go on the covid unemployment payment if they feel the heath authority advice isn't correct?

Has there been a vote in that union above saying that they have the last say on whether the schools open ?

Everyone is entitled to as safe a workplace as is possible - but I think the kind of statements (I would even say threats) that some unions are making really arent helpful.

downthemiddle wrote: »

I think you may have missed the point that the DES issued the guidelines recommending social distancing for children from 3rd class up. It has nothing to do with teachers or their unions.

I didn’t say it had ??

downthemiddle

iamwhoiam wrote: »

Tony Holohan just said that it is up to the Department of Ed to get guidance from NPHET and to implement them
He is right , like every other business they got advice and acted on it . Now is the time to get everything in order so that everything is ready to go in September . That is down to the DoE and the unions will have to accept that in my opinion

Am I understanding it right that a junior school that goes only to 2 nd class would have no social distancing within each class ? They would not mix with other classes but stay in their class for all activities ?
Our local school has a separate junior and senior side so in theory the junior side would be back in September as planned ?

I think you may have missed the point that the DES issued the guidelines recommending social distancing for children from 3rd class up. It has nothing to do with teachers or their unions.

downthemiddle

A complete and utter mess as was predicted weeks ago.

Millem wrote: »

Pods need to be 1m apart though? Depending on the size of the room they may not be all back together.

I understood that up to 2nd class there is no social distancing and no pods within a class ?

Sammy2012

iamwhoiam wrote: »

Tony Holohan just said that it is up to the Department of Ed to get guidance from NPHET and to implement them
He is right , like every other business they got advice and acted on it . Now is the time to get everything in order so that everything is ready to go in September . That is down to the DoE and the unions will have to accept that in my opinion

Am I understanding it right that a junior school that goes only to 2 nd class would have no social distancing within each class ? They would not mix with other classes but stay in their class for all activities ?
Our local school has a separate junior and senior side so in theory the junior side would be back in September as planned ?

That's my understanding of it anyway. I'm relieved about this as a parent of a soon to be junior infant and a 1st class child. However there are restrictions on the sharing of toys and equipment that will be hard to manage but once everyone gets used to it it shouldn't be too bad.

However I am moving to SET next year and am not sure how it will work with mixing with all the children but I'm sure we will come up with something!

I would just like to mention here that there are some schools out there who will not step up to this task. My own principal told the staff to have it all sorted and in place for September reopening! They are too busy to deal with it apparently. As we actually care for the staff the other members of the management team will deal with it and have the school as safe as possible for all when we reopen but keep that in mind..not all schools have the children's or staffs best in interest at heart!

Millem

iamwhoiam wrote: »

Tony Holohan just said that it is up to the Department of Ed to get guidance from NPHET and to implement them
He is right , like every other business they got advice and acted on it . Now is the time to get everything in order so that everything is ready to go in September . That is down to the DoE and the unions will have to accept that in my opinion

Am I understanding it right that a junior school that goes only to 2 nd class would have no social distancing within each class ? They would not mix with other classes but stay in their class for all activities ?
Our local school has a separate junior and senior side so in theory the junior side would be back in September as planned ?

Pods need to be 1m apart though? Depending on the size of the room they may not be all back together.