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Sweden avoiding lockdown

frillyleaf

Does Sweden have the right approach to this and how is their healthcare system being able to manage Covid19 cases?

What are the differences between Sweden and Ireland and why can’t we continue similar to how Sweden is managing Covid19?

I’m not suggesting either is right or wrong. I would just like to know how Sweden can continue as normal and other countries can’t. Thanks ðŸ˜Š

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charlie14

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

Paschal said, in April, that he predicts GDP to fall by 10.5% and unemployment to peak at 22%.

In reality - we had 28% unemployment in April, 26% in May and 22.5% in June. 3 months have ended with each more than his "peak" prediction.

If you gonna keep posting IMF prediction for Ireland and disregard Paschal altogether then good luck to you.

But you need some critical thinking, look at reports coming out from ESRI as at 18th of May

"Professor McQuinn said that output will likely contract by 12% in 2020 and the tax take will be down €59.3 billion to just €51 billion."

https://www.lawsociety.ie/gazette/top-stories/2020-will-see-largest-annual-decline-in-irish-gdp--esri/

Can you really keep banging the IMF drum? did you do economics in university? I am fearful that you really do not understand the financial impact on Ireland as a result of our lockdown, and even more fearful that you are naive enough to believe that Sweden will be "just as worse off as here"... Sweden's unemployment in April was 7.9%. Ours was 28%. Thats nearly 4 times higher... do you think in May they magically jumped to our 26% level? do you think unemployment has nothing to do with GDP figures or strength of the economy?

I don`t see whether or not I studied economics in uni would be of relevance where you are concerned.
You spent days rambling on being unable to understand why Sweden`s Central bank and their National Institute of Economic Research GDP projections didn`t tally with your imaginary figure.

I have mentioned many time now to at least attempt to read and comprehend posts before foolishly rushing in to reply with the first notion that enters your head, but apparently to no avail.
You are now posting articles where you are doing the same.

ESRI predictions for Ireland 2020 is GDP to contract by 9%. Slightly less than Sweden`s Central bank prediction of 9.7% if their situation stays the same regarding Covid-19. Something that does not look likely to change anytime soon when you consider their new confirmed case numbers.

Your a bit all over the place on a few fronts. Not the least being your contradiction on your own views on year end figures.
When it comes to excess deaths in Sweden your manta is the overall figure for the year end.Yet when it comes to unemployment figures it`s all about the now.
Unemployment figures are falling as restrictions are eased. The I.M.F.are predicting the overall figure for the year at 12% falling to 7.9% beginning of next year. Sound pretty plausible to me.

I totally agree GDP decline effects unemployment levels.

So how has Sweden`s GDP contraction not being reflected in their unemployment figures ? Furlough perhaps where you are regarded statistically as being on a little holiday rather than unemployed ?

As to me being naive as regards Ireland and Sweden concerning lockdown.
I`m afraid you are beating a very dead horse on that where being naive is concerned.
Sweden not using lockdown has resulted in 7 times the deaths of their Nordic neighbours, has them still rising up the table of most deaths in Europe, their herd immunity theory "was just a dream with no basis in reality" according to Annika Linde who now also concedes that they should have used lockdown, and even the architect of their strategy, Anders Tegnel,l has admitted he would not now be as quick to dismiss it as he did initially.

But don`t let any of that effect your delusional dream that all that will just fall away and count for nothing, where in a global economy Sweden will suddently waltz out at the top of the economic world and be vindicated.

Ginger n Lemon

Deleted User wrote: »

You clearly didn't since you attach weight to what finance ministries say.

I studied economics in TCD under the likes of Gabriel Fagan, Philip Lane etc and I can assure you, economists *don't* attach much weight to what finance ministries say because they are overtly political. Even central bank projections are regarded with distrust since they tend to be aspirational signalling exercises.

Don't insult others for a lack of education while making it abundantly clear that yours is even worse.

:rolleyes:

You are right, when finance ministers talk about GDP and unemployment in their own country we should not listen to them.

also - you really think that Danish, Swedish, Norwegian finance ministers are "overly political", just like Paschal? Really?

Whats abundantly clear is that there are people in this thread who believe Swedish economy will be in the bin identical to Irish economy, and that finance ministers should not be taken seriously when talking about unemployment and GDP of their own country.

And btw, I havent even started insulting anyone, I've asked a question to a poster who keeps sourcing his Irish and Swedish GDP information from RTE news and Statista.

Ozark707

biko wrote: »

68451 official cases
5333 officially dead
8% of known cases have passed

Numbers from FHMs own tracking page
https://experience.arcgis.com/experience/09f821667ce64bf7be6f9f87457ed9aa

Thanks for the link!

The number of deaths has really tailed off and the number of new cases is down considerably as well for the last week , is this because Sweden has gone on its summer holidays (they typically shutdown for a month after midsummer) and therefore it could be attributed to a lag in reporting or has the situation improved on this front.

[Deleted User]

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

did you do economics in university?

You clearly didn't since you attach weight to what finance ministries say.

I studied economics in TCD under the likes of Gabriel Fagan, Philip Lane etc and I can assure you, economists *don't* attach much weight to what finance ministries say because they are overtly political. Even central bank projections are regarded with distrust since they tend to be aspirational signalling exercises.

Don't insult others for a lack of education while making it abundantly clear that yours is even worse.

greyday

JimmyVik wrote: »

I wonder if Ireland had of locked down just one week earlier than we did, what would our deaths be like now? Would it have made a difference.

It would have made a difference to the deaths in community but not so much in Nursing homes as some of those just did not have the capability or resources to deal with a pandemic, those that did have the capability and resources did fairly well with one home in Cork recording no Covid infections, however they did go against Holohans advice and closed down completely a week before the schools, Holohan admonished that decision but we know how it has worked out now.

JimmyVik

I wonder if Ireland had of locked down just one week earlier than we did, what would our deaths be like now? Would it have made a difference.

Ginger n Lemon

charlie14 wrote: »

Damn. Apologies.

I knew there was another internationally highly respected source of data and financial projections that you didn`t want mentioned because their data does not suit your narrative.

Anybody else I can add to that lengthy list ?

Paschal said, in April, that he predicts GDP to fall by 10.5% and unemployment to peak at 22%.

In reality - we had 28% unemployment in April, 26% in May and 22.5% in June. 3 months have ended with each more than his "peak" prediction.

If you gonna keep posting IMF prediction for Ireland and disregard Paschal altogether then good luck to you.

But you need some critical thinking, look at reports coming out from ESRI as at 18th of May

"Professor McQuinn said that output will likely contract by 12% in 2020 and the tax take will be down €59.3 billion to just €51 billion."

https://www.lawsociety.ie/gazette/top-stories/2020-will-see-largest-annual-decline-in-irish-gdp--esri/

Can you really keep banging the IMF drum? did you do economics in university? I am fearful that you really do not understand the financial impact on Ireland as a result of our lockdown, and even more fearful that you are naive enough to believe that Sweden will be "just as worse off as here"... Sweden's unemployment in April was 7.9%. Ours was 28%. Thats nearly 4 times higher... do you think in May they magically jumped to our 26% level?

do you think unemployment has nothing to do with GDP figures or strength of the economy?

biko

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

Its not a nice way of saying anything, its called reality.

Your method is a bit disassociated and sterile.

How about we say a town of Abbeyleix is dead in Ireland.
A town of Kinsale's size dead in Sweden.

If we say that a nursing home typically houses 30 old people,
then Ireland has cleared out 57 homes
and Sweden has cleared out 177 homes

charlie14

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

I gotta repost this again. Damn you really did say RTE news :D:D oh Charles... going from Statista gdp predictions to RTE news. I m almost lost for words.

Damn. Apologies.

I knew there was another internationally highly respected source of data and financial projections that you didn`t want mentioned because their data does not suit your narrative.

Anybody else I can add to that lengthy list ?

charlie14

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

When you said RTE news you lost all credability.

Sad case.

I said RTE reported the I.M.F`s projections on Ireland`s GDP and unemployment for this year and next. Not that they made them up.
Do try and keep up.
It is getting tiresome having to keep reminding you to stop posting the first rubbish that enters your head rather than reading and at least attempting to comprehend posts first before doing so.

charlie14

Danno wrote: »

Sweden has a FAR higher proportion of elderly than Ireland does. Perfectly plausible for them to have a higher number of this scale.

That may have been applicable when like ourselves they made a complete mess of care homes, but when Sweden were still reporting deaths in the 500 -600 range weekly Anders Tegnell said care homes were only accounting for around 30 of that number.
At that stage I cannot see any other explanation for many of those deaths other community transmission due to the virus being allowed to run free.

Ginger n Lemon

charlie14 wrote: »

So the I.M.F`s economic and unemployment forecast, RTE news, Sweden`s Public Health Agency figures of Covid-19 deaths, any comparison to Sweden and it`s Nordic neighbours, Sweden having the 5th highest death toll in Europe, Sweden`s former state epidemiologist who said "herd immunity was a dream with no basis in reality, and any mention of Sweden`s antibody tests results should all be ignored because they contradict anything that doesn`t fit your narrative.

Did I miss anything ?

I gotta repost this again. Damn you really did say RTE news

:D:D oh Charles... going from Statista gdp predictions to RTE news. I m almost lost for words.

Ginger n Lemon

charlie14 wrote: »

So the I.M.F`s economic and unemployment forecast, RTE news, Sweden`s Public Health Agency figures of Covid-19 deaths, any comparison to Sweden and it`s Nordic neighbours, Sweden having the 5th highest death toll in Europe, Sweden`s former state epidemiologist who said "herd immunity was a dream with no basis in reality, and any mention of Sweden`s antibody tests results should all be ignored because they contradict anything that doesn`t fit your narrative.

Did I miss anything ?

When you said RTE news you lost all credability.

Sad case.

Danno

Morrisp wrote: »

That means 900 more people died .you put price on lives these people ?

Sweden has a FAR higher proportion of elderly than Ireland does. Perfectly plausible for them to have a higher number of this scale.

charlie14

biko wrote: »

That's a nice way of attempting to say 1700 have died so far of 5 million,
and 5300 have died of 10 million.

Is that you Ann Linde?

Even Linde eventually admitted that lockdown would have saved lives and that herd immunity was nothing but a dream with no basis in reality.
Something Ginger and a few others are still not prepared to do.

charlie14

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

So we are to listen to IMF rather than ministers for finance in each country? Charlie you really are losing it.

Also stop tuning in to RTE, they dont even announce age of people dying with covid anymore...

So the I.M.F`s economic and unemployment forecast, RTE news, Sweden`s Public Health Agency figures of Covid-19 deaths, any comparison to Sweden and it`s Nordic neighbours, Sweden having the 5th highest death toll in Europe, Sweden`s former state epidemiologist who said "herd immunity was a dream with no basis in reality, and any mention of Sweden`s antibody tests results should all be ignored because they contradict anything that doesn`t fit your narrative.

Did I miss anything ?

Ginger n Lemon

biko wrote: »

That's a nice way of attempting to say 1700 have died so far of 5 million,
and 5300 have died of 10 million.

Is that you Ann Linde?

And 50,000 died in Brazil. 0.02%

Its not a nice way of saying anything, its called reality.

Ginger n Lemon

charlie14 wrote: »

Knew there was something else you had avoided on the I.M.F.
They are calling Ireland unemployment figures to average out at 12.1% this year, dropping to 7.9% early next year. Covered by RTE as well.

On Sweden`s unemployment figures, are those in Sweden not employed because of the pandemic included in their unemployment figures ?
There was a post on here who reckons they are not. Reckoned they are classified as being on furlough and as such not included in unemployment figures.

So we are to listen to IMF rather than ministers for finance in each country? Charlie you really are losing it.

Also stop tuning in to RTE, they dont even announce age of people dying with covid anymore...

charlie14

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

Charlie, for the last time

0.04% of Irish population died with covid

0.05% of Swedish population died with covid

Seriously :rolleyes:

I did mention that no matter how you dress them up they still speak for themselves. Not just that they have 45% more deaths to date, but when compared to their like for like Nordic neighbours who used lockdown, their Covid-19 deaths are 700% greater.

biko

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

Charlie, for the last time

0.04% of Irish population died with covid

0.05% of Swedish population died with covid

Seriously :rolleyes:

That's a nice way of attempting to say 1700 have died so far of 5 million,
and 5300 have died of 10 million.

Is that you Ann Linde?

charlie14

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

Charles our June unemployment is 22.5%.

28% 26% 22.5%.

You really gonna keep banging the "Sweden economy doing just as bad as Ireland" drum?

Knew there was something else you had avoided on the I.M.F.
They are calling Ireland unemployment figures to average out at 12.1% this year, dropping to 7.9% early next year. Covered by RTE as well.

On Sweden`s unemployment figures, are those in Sweden not employed because of the pandemic included in their unemployment figures ?
There was a post on here who reckons they are not. Reckoned they are classified as being on furlough and as such not included in unemployment figures.

Ginger n Lemon

charlie14 wrote: »

Sweden`s Covid-19 figures speak for themselves. No matter how some try dressing them up.

But knew there was something you had again avoided. Your post just reminded me.
The I.M.F. who know a fair bit about Irish economics from direct experience are forecast no difference in GDP between Ireland and Sweden this year and have us performing better than Sweden in 2021.
Surprised you missed that. RTE even covered it.

Charles our June unemployment is 22.5%.

28% 26% 22.5%.

You really gonna keep banging the "Sweden economy doing just as bad as Ireland" drum?

charlie14

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

Ah Charles, first you doubt Swedish minister for finance predictions, now Swedish covid figures? Some things never change in this thread

Sweden`s Covid-19 figures speak for themselves. No matter how some try dressing them up.

But knew there was something you had again avoided. Your post just reminded me.
The I.M.F. who know a fair bit about Irish economics from direct experience are forecast no difference in GDP between Ireland and Sweden this year and have us performing better than Sweden in 2021.
Surprised you missed that. RTE even covered it.

Ginger n Lemon

charlie14 wrote: »

Sweden has had 45% more deaths per head of population than Ireland and that percentage still increasing.

Charlie, for the last time

0.04% of Irish population died with covid

0.05% of Swedish population died with covid

Seriously :rolleyes:

Ginger n Lemon

charlie14 wrote: »

I can see your point, but every time I see similar reminds me of the banking crisis.
During that period our GDP contracted by 25% and unemployment figures were off the scale. Saving the banks according to Eurostat cost the Irish taxpayer 41 Billion euro and that did not include the 15 Billion from the National Pension Fund.
I know many may not see it as I do, but for me the present situation compared to what it cost just to save banks puts it in perspective for me

Yes. You are spot on. You are one of a kind. :rolleyes:

Ginger n Lemon

charlie14 wrote: »

It is difficult to know lately just what the actual daily deaths from Covid-19 are in Sweden.

Last week there were days as far as I recall where there were large numbers on Wordometers but they do not seem to be there now. The overall number is the same, so it looks as if some have been added to days further back.

Ah Charles, first you doubt Swedish minister for finance predictions, now Swedish covid figures? Some things never change in this thread

charlie14

cnocbui wrote: »

I did that. Would you care to comment on how there is a significant disparity between Germany and it's immediate neighbours but, we we should only focus on Sweden and assert their failings?

This conversation should only be had, five years from now, because it's not over yet, for any country in Europe.

If you did then why did you not post it, rather than do it for Ireland who have little or nothing in common with Sweden ?
I did it on the four Nordic countries and it was not difficult to pick the odd one out.

Of course it is not over yet, but there is nothing Sweden achieved from no lockdown that will be of benefit to them going forward.
All they have achieve, as some media outlets have said, is made themselves pariahs plus having multiples of deaths in comparison to their neighbours.

cnocbui

cnocbui wrote: »

Germany has 3 times the death rate per million that Poland has.
The Netherlands has 3 times that of Germany.
Belgium has 7 times that of Germany.
Sweden has 5 times that of Denmark.

Gee, I guess all those neighbouring states have a lot of questions to answer because none of them are close to being the same.

charlie14 wrote: »

Why are you running around the world comparing countries that have nothing socially, geographically or culturally in common with Sweden ?
Why not post comparisons to those that have ?

Their Nordic neighbours for example.

I did that. Would you care to comment on how there is a significant disparity between Germany and it's immediate neighbours but, we we should only focus on Sweden and assert their failings?

This conversation should only be had, five years from now, because it's not over yet, for any country in Europe.

charlie14

hi5 wrote: »

Swedens economy is set to take a plunge because the rest of the world has stopped buying Volvos, Scannias and Ikea furniture due to their own lockdowns.
Not Swedens fault.

Are you saying the rest of the world is not buying trucks cars and furniture because of their own lockdowns ?
If you are then would that not, in Europe alone, have quite a few countries in the same position as Sweden ?

Truth is Sweden`s economy will take a hit same as everyone else because they do not live in an economic bubble, but a global economy.
The one area I can see them taking a disproportionate hit in is tourism.

hi5

Swedens economy is set to take a plunge because the rest of the world has stopped buying Volvos, Scannias and Ikea furniture due to their own lockdowns.
Not Swedens fault.