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FG to just do nothing for the next 5 years.

satguy

It seems FG will be very happy to just sit on their hands for 5 years. Would FG voters be happy with this, as it means all those FG votes mean nothing, and do nothing.

Having been in power for 9 years, they did nothing, people have no homes, people still on trollies.

FG may have given some of their rich buddies some tax breaks.

But other than that, they did what FG do best, are their poor hands not numb by now.

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dundalkfc10

blanch152 wrote: »

The numbers are there, it is just a level of difficulty that requires a politician of consummate skill in bringing things together. Bertie could put that coalition together of everyone except FF and FG, but as bad as he was, he was an awful lot more skilled at politics than Mary-Lou.

Majority=81. SF 37 + GP12+Lab6+SD6+SPBP6=67. Even with 3 or 4 leftish Independents, way short.

Facts

Loafing Oaf

blanch152 wrote: »

The numbers are there, it is just a level of difficulty that requires a politician of consummate skill in bringing things together.

Would require the support of a number of FF & FG gene pool independents, and I don't see why those guys would be any less hostile to SF than their mother parties.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

You could hear it with Mary-Lou on the radio. Trying to shift the onus onto FF.

The numbers are there without FF and FG, but she isn't willing and she isn't able to pull that coalition together, so shifting the responsibility.

FG/FF and the Greens will have shown that they aren't willing and aren't able to pull a coalition together if this attempt fails.

Not sure if you have a case here for that criticism.

is_that_so

blanch152 wrote: »

The numbers are there, it is just a level of difficulty that requires a politician of consummate skill in bringing things together. Bertie could put that coalition together of everyone except FF and FG, but as bad as he was, he was an awful lot more skilled at politics than Mary-Lou.

I don't think they have discipline nor the inclination to do much more than we invited them and they didn't want to come. That's probably the win. I think there also be an eye on how their support would view them "enabling" FF or FG to get back into government.

seamus

FrancieBrady wrote: »

FG/FF and the Greens will have shown that they aren't willing and aren't able to pull a coalition together if this attempt fails.

You've got that wrong. It'll have shown that they're willing, but not able because the policy differences are too large.

To maintain any semblance of legitimacy, SF will need to step up and extend the lámh to FF & FG to try and cobble a PfG together.

This will prove that SF are at least willing to go into coalition, even if that hand gets slapped away by FF/FG.

It's a gamble for all 3 parties though. FFFG swore blind that they'd never go into government with SF. And SF have been bleating on about "change" for the last four months and really ramping up the anti-FFFG rhetoric with their voters.

FrancieBrady

seamus wrote: »

You've got that wrong. It'll have shown that they're willing, but not able because the policy differences are too large.

To maintain any semblance of legitimacy, SF will need to step up and extend the lámh to FF & FG to try and cobble a PfG together.

This will prove that SF are at least willing to go into coalition, even if that hand gets slapped away by FF/FG.

It's a gamble for all 3 parties though. FFFG swore blind that they'd never go into government with SF. And SF have been bleating on about "change" for the last four months and really ramping up the anti-FFFG rhetoric with their voters.

How do they show that?

They are the only party of the 3 to say consistently through the campaign that they will talk to anyone.

FF swore blind they wouldn't go in with FG and FG said allowing a FF leader back would be akin to letting John Delaney take the controls of the FAI again.

I think you are looking for the wrong necks to be wound in.

It would be great to see Michael D tell FF and Fg to wind their necks in and ACTUALLY put the country first.

James Brown

Leonard Hofstadter wrote: »

I have to say, this thread is incredibly frustrating to read.

We have the same few blaming Fine Gael for everything they've done and for every problem there is, both real and imagined.

It's rinse and repeat. I simply don't know how anyone can stay that 'annoyed' and 'outraged' 24/7/365 and post non-stop about it on boards (and presumably other political discussion forums).

I keep hoping we might have something that's related to the topic at hand, you know... Government formation since Fine Gael evidently decided not to 'just do nothing' as per the title in the OP.

Every little thing Leo does is supposedly awful or insensitive, or the worst thing ever, no matter what it is. It's just pathetic. It's not for nothing that the term 'Shinnerbot' was invented. There are tactics here straight out of the Trump playbook; constant negativity, whataboutery, deflection and of course, looking for something, anything to criticise Leo / FG for.

Of course I'm not for a second suggesting that FG should be above criticism - but I think most of us can distinguish between criticism based on things they've actually done as opposed to the constant 24/7/365 whinging and moaning about absolutely everything.

It really does remind me just how unrepresentative discussion forums and other forms of social media are of what the public at large thinks.

Your opener is completely false. Specifics are given and ignored. You'd have seen this if you read back.
Also if you want to talk imagined look at shinner bots and the unemployed used as a blanket generalisation to ignore or dismiss those points.

You're coddling nobody.
...of course if you can point to something FG did do or say that you criticised or agreed with criticism given or something made up just to whinge maybe? Was it Leo lifting speeches about a global pandemic off of netflix? Was it FG councilor O'Leary admiring fascists? Was it Irelands call being a farce?

All Trump analogy rests with ye. Fake media, fake social media conspiracies by the left and an unwillingness to take or discuss certain criticisms while blaming it all on vested interests and how no decent person could think such a way or vote such a way. Not to mention Leo trying to do Trump a solid in Clare and his admiring him, initially anyway.

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

How do they show that?

They are the only party of the 3 to say consistently through the campaign that they will talk to anyone.

FF swore blind they wouldn't go in with FG and FG said allowing a FF leader back would be akin to letting John Delaney take the controls of the FAI again.

I think you are looking for the wrong necks to be wound in.

It would be great to see Michael D tell FF and Fg to wind their necks in and ACTUALLY put the country first.

The problem for Sinn Fein is that they have been talking out of both sides of their mouth. It happens so often that they probably don't even realise they are doing it.

If on the one hand you claim that you are seeking change, you can't on the other say that you are willing to talk to anyone, as that is the antithesis of change because you are talking to FG and FF.

The only way that SF could have shown that they were serious about government is produce a draft alternative PfG agreed with the PBP, SDs and others.

Majority required is 81, there are 87 TDs available who are not in FG or FF.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

The problem for Sinn Fein is that they have been talking out of both sides of their mouth. It happens so often that they probably don't even realise they are doing it.

If on the one hand you claim that you are seeking change, you can't on the other say that you are willing to talk to anyone, as that is the antithesis of change because you are talking to FG and FF.

The only way that SF could have shown that they were serious about government is produce a draft alternative PfG agreed with the PBP, SDs and others.

Majority required is 81, there are 87 TDs available who are not in FG or FF.

They are going to 'change' how government is done. And that means changing the power swap and the parties involved in it.

Forcing them to look at coalescing is proof enough that they have done that.

Politics is re-aligning in the country..the change is happening and they haven't even got into government yet.

James Brown

blanch152 wrote: »

The problem for Sinn Fein is that they have been talking out of both sides of their mouth. It happens so often that they probably don't even realise they are doing it.

If on the one hand you claim that you are seeking change, you can't on the other say that you are willing to talk to anyone, as that is the antithesis of change because you are talking to FG and FF.

The only way that SF could have shown that they were serious about government is produce a draft alternative PfG agreed with the PBP, SDs and others.

Majority required is 81, there are 87 TDs available who are not in FG or FF.

Would that be why Varadkar spoke on stability and having a mandate for the people but refusing to talk with SF? Would it be how he said they were incapable of forming a government and in the same breath said the political crises could result in a FF/SF government?
Sounds like he's talking ****e and contradicting himself.
I think SF could/should have done more however I don't know what went on outside of what the news reported.
If SF went in with FF or FG, FF/FG would need to radically change their manner and attitude towards the public before I'd get excited.
The Greens are looking like being the next Labour or Greens for that matter, supporting two wastes.

blanch152

Bowie wrote: »

Your opener is completely false. Specifics are given and ignored. You'd have seen this if you read back.
Also if you want to talk imagined look at shinner bots and the unemployed used as a blanket generalisation to ignore or dismiss those points.

You're coddling nobody.
...of course if you can point to something FG did do or say that you criticised or agreed with criticism given or something made up just to whinge maybe? Was it Leo lifting speeches about a global pandemic off of netflix? Was it FG councilor O'Leary admiring fascists? Was it Irelands call being a farce?

All Trump analogy rests with ye. Fake media, fake social media conspiracies by the left and an unwillingness to take or discuss certain criticisms while blaming it all on vested interests and how no decent person could think such a way or vote such a way. Not to mention Leo trying to do Trump a solid in Clare and his admiring him, initially anyway.

Specifics are given and ignored?

I haven't seen that. I have seen madcap opinions masquerading as facts demanding rebuttal, but you can't rebut a madcap opinion, so the idiosyncrasies of certain posters are best ignored.

What I haven't seen are cogent arguments backed up links to factual information.

We have had posters claiming that the youth are emigrating every week when the facts don't back this up. We have others fantasising about conspiracy theories around Denis O'Brien and other shadowy figures. Still more imagine that politicians are deliberately out to get certain sections of society. Others deny the fact that the homeless numbers are decreasing.

A discussion based on facts and specifics would be welcome, one based on imagined conspiracy theories or anecdotal experiences is not very useful. Worse is when we get trivialities of people complaining about literary quotes in speeches, pathetic whinging is the only way to describe that particular aspect.

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

They are going to 'change' how government is done. And that means changing the power swap and the parties involved in it.

Forcing them to look at coalescing is proof enough that they have done that.

Politics is re-aligning in the country..the change is happening and they haven't even got into government yet.

Do you have a job in corporate speak? Change how government is done? Didn't Tony Blair promise that, or was it Boris Johnson, or both of them. Certainly, Trump promised it.

Empty soundbites like changing how government is done are generally used by the politicians with the least ideas about policy and the most ideas about image. Nothing to see in those kind of soundbites.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

Do you have a job in corporate speak? Change how government is done? Didn't Tony Blair promise that, or was it Boris Johnson, or both of them. Certainly, Trump promised it.

Empty soundbites like changing how government is done are generally used by the politicians with the least ideas about policy and the most ideas about image. Nothing to see in those kind of soundbites.

Is FF and FG being forced to coalesce a 'change' to how government has been done here blanch?

There is nothing empty about it. It is what I voted for and I don't much care if it is Lab, The Greens or a selection of Independents who force the change...the end of the comfy power swap is something we should all be celebrating.

christy c

FrancieBrady wrote: »

...the end of the comfy power swap is something we should all be celebrating.

Leaving aside your power swap reference, I would celebrate it if it was an improvement. However given the nonsense we have heard regarding taxes, pensions, etc. we may as well give Bertie a ring to see if he'd like to deliver some change.

Podge_irl

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Is FF and FG being forced to coalesce a 'change' to how government has been done here blanch?

Not really? Its a change in electoral maths, even a change in politics, but it doesn't necessarily indicate a change in how government is done.

FrancieBrady

Podge_irl wrote: »

Not really? Its a change in electoral maths, even a change in politics, but it doesn't necessarily indicate a change in how government is done.

It does in my opinion.

It a reaching of maturity I think, the end of civil war politics.
No surprise FF and FG are desperately trying to start another civil war in Irish politics.

Mortelaro

FrancieBrady wrote: »

the power swap and the parties involved in it.

As pointed out to you earlier,swapping is a consensual behaviour only
Up untill the last Dáil,there was nothing consensual between FF and FG being in government other than maybe the Dukes Tallaght strategy
Ergo Your swap tag is false

FrancieBrady

Mortelaro wrote: »

As pointed out to you earlier,swapping is a consensual behaviour only
Up untill the last Dáil,there was nothing consensual between FF and FG being in government other than maybe the Dukes Tallaght strategy
Ergo Your swap tag is false

Consensual or not...it needs to end and it is ending one way or another.

Change has been brought about. Ergo, therefore etc etc.

Podge_irl

FrancieBrady wrote: »

It does in my opinion.

It a reaching of maturity I think, the end of civil war politics.
No surprise FF and FG are desperately trying to start another civil war in Irish politics.

That is politics, not government. It is not a semantic difference. Maybe SF, when they inevitably get into power at some point, will fundamentally alter how governing is done. But it is something often claimed and rarely achieved.

You will undoubtedly have people a generation hence that are happy they have "matured" beyond left-right politics. And a generation after that something else. I think civil war politics was stupid and I have no problem seeing the back of it. I would seriously like to see either the removal or restriction on independents as the next step.

efanton

Mortelaro wrote: »

How does handing back social welfare powers not hand back power over social welfare rates?

Here is what Scotland did...

Sorry Mortelaro, but you are 100% wrong on this one.

The Northern Ireland executive, and the Scottish and Welsh assemblies have very limited powers, and there are laws and powers that can only changed or exercised in the houses of parliament in Westminster.
These are called 'Reserved and excepted matters'.

There northern Ireland executive has no power whatsoever to altered or modify any law or provision that is encompassed by these 'Reserved and excepted matters'.

Among them being social security schemes, child support, and pensions.
These can only be set or adjusted in the houses of parliament.

The brittish government might have given the Sottish assembly more powers, but it hasn't given the same powers to the Welsh assembly or the Northern Ireland Executive. The clue was in the name "The Scotland Act 2016 ", that act is specific to Scotland and Scotland only.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reserved_and_excepted_matters

Mortelaro

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Consensual or not...it needs to end and it is ending one way or another.

Change has been brought about. Ergo, therefore etc etc.

Kindly stop using the swap slur on voters then please and continue lobbying instead for your desired outcome
The change reality is,change isnt brought about by getting 25% of the vote
Its brought about by compromising with a sufficient number of the other democratically elected T.D's who form a significant block that you need

dundalkfc10

Mortelaro wrote: »

Kindly stop using the swap slur on voters then please and continue lobbying instead for your desired outcome
The change reality is,change isnt brought about by getting 25% of the vote
Its brought about by compromising with a sufficient number of the other democratically elected T.D's who form a significant block that you need

"We will not go into Govt with FG"

"Putting FF back in Govt would be like putting John Delaney back in charge of the FAI"

Are these the 2 chancer's of parties we want, thankfully less than 50% of the country wants either.

Mortelaro

efanton wrote: »

Sorry Mortelaro, but you are 100% wrong on this one.

The Northern Ireland executive, and the Scottish and Welsh assemblies have very limited powers, and there are laws and powers that can only changed or exercised in the houses of parliament in Westminster.
These are called 'Reserved and excepted matters'.

There northern Ireland executive has no power whatsoever to altered or modify any law or provision that is encompassed by these 'Reserved and excepted matters'.

Among them being social security schemes, child support, and pensions.
These can only be set or adjusted in the houses of parliament.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reserved_and_excepted_matters

Did you even read the link I showed you on what welfare powers Scotland got?
No hand over there
Perhaps you can advise on why SF voted in Stormont to throw the following away to London
I'll post them :

Actions
We are:

designing a social security system with a strong local presence via the Social Security Scotland agency
engaging with people with experience of receiving benefits, to build a social security system that works for them
improving benefits for carers by increasing the Carer’s Allowance and introducing a Young Carer Grant and a payment for carers of more than one disabled child
improving benefits for disabled people and people with ill health, and confirming that no assessments will be carried out by the private sector
campaigning to maximise benefit take-up
delivering the Best Start Grant to increase support for low-income families with young children
delivering the Funeral Expense Assistance to provide critical financial support to people at a difficult time
providing help with heating costs and extending the Winter Fuel Payment to families with severely disabled children
supporting young people make the transition into work through the Job Start Payment
introducing a Scottish Child Payment for low income families, for children under six the first payments will be made by Christmas 2020 and full roll-out for under 16s by the end of 2022
allocating budget to local authorities to provide grants under the Scottish Welfare Fund
advising on and helping to fund support with housing costs
working to establish a guidance for definition of terminal illness for the purpose of disability assistance
working with the Department for Work and Pensions to introduce flexibilities to the way Universal Credit is paid
We have also:

developed a communications toolkit to help our partners inform their staff, clients and stakeholders about the new social security kit

dundalkfc10

'An absolute scandal': Ireland has the highest Covid infection rate for healthcare workers in the world, committee told https://jrnl.ie/5130304

Well done lads, another record

Mortelaro

dundalkfc10 wrote: »

"We will not go into Govt with FG"

"Putting FF back in Govt would be like putting John Delaney back in charge of the FAI"

Are these the 2 chancer's of parties we want, thankfully less than 50% of the country wants either.

Notwithstanding the fact that that's a fact of pre election life,you have your attitude Lad and you'd have no government
You need to work with who is elected
I'm pretty sure you'll find some choice words historically from the DUP about power sharing with SF
Needs and reality lead to compromise's
It's an evolutionary process
I'm pretty sure SF will eventually be in government even with FG once their attitudes to one another and red lines have evolved into detente

FrancieBrady

Mortelaro wrote: »

Kindly stop using the swap slur on voters then please and continue lobbying instead for your desired outcome
The change reality is,change isnt brought about by getting 25% of the vote
Its brought about by compromising with a sufficient number of the other democratically elected T.D's who form a significant block that you need

'Kindly stop using' a description I happen to believe happens? Are you joking?

'Compromising'? like the fact that you are so used to being lied to you call it something else, 'coalition' was never done by compromise here it was done by domination and the subsequent obliteration of the minor party.

Get real, stop inventing Mort, I have lived through too many coalitions to fall for that FG/FF patter.

blanch152

dundalkfc10 wrote: »

'An absolute scandal': Ireland has the highest Covid infection rate for healthcare workers in the world, committee told https://jrnl.ie/5130304

Well done lads, another record

Have you a link to the data, rather than the outraged opinion of a sectional interest?

James Brown

blanch152 wrote: »

Specifics are given and ignored?

I haven't seen that. I have seen madcap opinions masquerading as facts demanding rebuttal, but you can't rebut a madcap opinion, so the idiosyncrasies of certain posters are best ignored.

What I haven't seen are cogent arguments backed up links to factual information.

We have had posters claiming that the youth are emigrating every week when the facts don't back this up. We have others fantasising about conspiracy theories around Denis O'Brien and other shadowy figures. Still more imagine that politicians are deliberately out to get certain sections of society. Others deny the fact that the homeless numbers are decreasing.

A discussion based on facts and specifics would be welcome, one based on imagined conspiracy theories or anecdotal experiences is not very useful. Worse is when we get trivialities of people complaining about literary quotes in speeches, pathetic whinging is the only way to describe that particular aspect.

Yes you have.

Ireland's Call
Varadkar lifting lines from films
FG Councilor O'Leary admiring fascists

These are just in the last couple of weeks these are not 'imagined'.

Opinions on....things FG actually said and did. You are free to disagree, I'm not FG after all, but ignoring some and trying to dismiss others isn't genuine IMO.

Are you denying councilor O'Leary admired fascists?
You concede Varadkar lifted lines.
Do you deny over 70,000 applied for Ireland's call and only 111 were taken up on it? Which facts are you disputing here?

I've not been following immigration numbers. However you ran away when links were given on homeless numbers and links given as to why figures in homelessness and health/A&E were down during the pandemic, so your whinging about a lack of links is completely disingenuous IMO. And you shoveling that ****e again after running away when you got found out the last time is dishonest.
There are no conspiracy theories about Mr. O'Brien. We know he has the ear of FG, we just don't know why. The Sitserv deal is under investigation, do you think that's all down to shinners and them that don't want to work and a Twitter conspiracy?

blanch152

dundalkfc10 wrote: »

"We will not go into Govt with FG"

"Putting FF back in Govt would be like putting John Delaney back in charge of the FAI"

Are these the 2 chancer's of parties we want, thankfully less than 50% of the country wants either.

Isn't Mary-Lou on record that she wants a government without FF and FG?

Why is she calling on them for talks now?

In fact, her whole election campaign was based on getting rid of the two big parties. Loads and loads of statements. If anyone is going back on their promise, it is her.

James Brown

blanch152 wrote: »

Do you have a job in corporate speak? Change how government is done? Didn't Tony Blair promise that, or was it Boris Johnson, or both of them. Certainly, Trump promised it.

Empty soundbites like changing how government is done are generally used by the politicians with the least ideas about policy and the most ideas about image. Nothing to see in those kind of soundbites.

'Change the way we do business' 'an end to cronyism' 'no more quangos'

Was good enough for you when FG were at it. Seems you are buying into the 'political crisis' scaremongering crap too.