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Will you download the contact tracing app?

jetsonx

I know privacy is very important to people but I fear that drastic times call for drastic measures.

Let's say the Irish Government introduced a smartphone app tomorrow to prevent the spread of COVID-19. The app would record all your movements and triage the data against the movements of those infected with COVID-19. An app which could save thousands of lives.

Would you allow this app to be installed on your smartphone?

(The data would be solely used by health authorities)

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Comments

poff

There is some movement in Germany about the app and open source

https://github.com/corona-warn-app/cwa-documentation

belmontgate

jetsonx wrote: »

I know privacy is very important to people but I fear that drastic times call for drastic measures.

Let's say the Irish Government introduced a smartphone app tomorrow to prevent the spread of COVID-19. The app would record all your movements and triage the data against the movements of those infected with COVID-19. An app which could save thousands of lives.

Would you allow this app to be installed on your smartphone?

(The data would be solely used by health authorities)

Yes and it's good to see the Govt and the people too I assume embracing high tech solutions for society's high tech problems.
For that tiny (?) proportion of the population who don't have smartphones may I be excused for proposing a lowly LOW tech solution to the contact tracing issue - it's called a diary! In case anyone is visualising gold embossed leather bound tomes, not so. A pencil and a torn sugar bag even will fit the bill admirably. After all what information is needed? The simplest note that records who one met, where, when and for how long. Anything further - optional. Of course this won't suit workers who meet many in the course of the day, but even they could summarise where they were and for how long and a brief note of the circumstances, shop, factory, office, milk round, post round et al.
Maybe I'm naive in suggesting that HSE etc should somehow include this kind of tip along with their other recommendations?

plodder

poff wrote: »

There is some movement in Germany about the app and open source

https://github.com/corona-warn-app/cwa-documentation

If they want to develop it open-source then that is great. The only caveat is that normally open-source means the ability to take the source code, build it yourself and deploy the app then yourself on your phone. But, I suspect you can't do that because both Apple and google are restricting only one instance of a contact tracing app per country.

Nevertheless, I think it's potentially useful. I'm sure it will be useful to the developers of the Irish app to see the source code for the German one.

The risk is that people with an axe to grind will point out various "flaws" and just declare the thing unsafe.

joseywhales

plodder wrote: »

If they want to develop it open-source then that is great. The only caveat is that normally open-source means the ability to take the source code, build it yourself and deploy the app then yourself on your phone. But, I suspect you can't do that because both Apple and google are restricting only one instance of a contact tracing app per country.

Nevertheless, I think it's potentially useful. I'm sure it will be useful to the developers of the Irish app to see the source code for the German one.

The risk is that people with an axe to grind will point out various "flaws" and just declare the thing unsafe.

It's a fantastic example of how we should tackle problems, open shared data and apps, as opposed to this crazy protectionist mindset

poff

The risk is that people with an axe to grind will point out various "flaws" and just declare the thing unsafe.

That's an advantage! Pointing out flaws gives developers a chance to correct the code and make it safe. Having many eyes looking at the development most likely will help to prevent the problems.

Intelligence looks for solutions, wisdom tries to prevent problems. We need both

plodder

poff wrote: »

That's an advantage! Pointing out flaws gives developers a chance to correct the code and make it safe. Having many eyes looking at the development most likely will help to prevent the problems.

Look at the UK. Their app is open-source.

The Register: NHS contact tracing app isn't really anonymous, is riddled with bugs, and is open to abuse. Good thing we're not in the middle of a pandemic, eh?

A lot of this type of commentary might be the same even if it wasn't open-source, but there are other comments about the number of bugs reported, without saying whether they were fixed or not, and implying that is a bad thing. I'm not saying we shouldn't release the source code of our app; just that people who are opposed to the app will use the increased information available not to improve it but to damage it.

poff

The source code does not mean that the increased information can be used to damage it. If one is opposed, one does not have to install it, rather than looking at the source code and try to do damage.

If the people involved in the app are wise, they do everything to avoid problems. They could do that with the help of the open source community. It might be little more work but it definitely would also speed up finding the best solutions for the problems. I think, somebody trying to do damage by suggesting flawed code, would be discovered very fast and ignored. Closed source would only hide the possible problems and would be much more dangerous.

The British approach is not the decentralised approach. Their app and approach has major flaws - the worst: it does not even work in the background. Apart from that, their emphasis seems to be more on controlling people as they refuse the decentralised approach, trying to force people to use the app or refuse to give them any corona support money. This is extortion. I would rather smash my phone.

plodder

I'm not opposed to releasing the source code, but take a look at the comments at the end of that link I posted.

A lot of:

"yeah they published the app source code, but not the server source!!! Ah....Cheltenham (GCHQ) still in the driving seat!!!!!!"

I predicted that

or

yeah they published the source code, but X, Y or Z (funded by the CIA) are involved.

The comments are all garbage but maybe convincing to some. It doesn't make the tinfoil hattery go away, is all's I'm sayin ..

I work with open-source. It can work very well if you have a well established community of people who collaborate (as in actually do some work) on it together, and to do that they need much more than the source code. They need test suites, development and test environments etc. Just releasing the source code for something is PR and pure optics - nothing else.

poff

I am not a programmer, I am trying to understand...

The centralised approach pushes all the information to a centralised server. Even if the source code of the backend would be open, there would be no way of verifying it. That means, whatever data processing is going on, nobody can check. This would make my alarm bells ring. The question here is: what is the real reason that the British are pushing such a questionable approach?

Due to apple refusing that kind of approach, we might be in a better situation developing a decentralised app (privacy by design). I have no idea what the app will be asking but the very essential part - tracing possible infections, does not need any centralised approach, most will just happen on the users' phones (decentralised). Then, after an infection is confirmed, you can push your IDs from the last few days to a server and make them available to other phones to check whether they meet the conditions of having been close for too long. It "should" not be possible to track it back but, as there is also an IP address, it could be possible to put a name on the positive tested person with a little effort. But I would not think it matters as the person would already be known. In general, location tracking should not be part of the app.

It is a good, important discussion and, if people in charge hopefully look at it too, they can avoid problems and distrust. My decision is not made yet, I'll watch the development closely and, if it can not be verified, I most likely won't be part of any tracing app. "Can not be verified" means for me that the complete source is not released or the source is released too late.

plodder

poff wrote: »

I am not a programmer, I am trying to understand...

The centralised approach pushes all the information to a centralised server.

I think even with the centralised approach, nothing is reported (ie sent from your phone to a server) unless you report that you have been infected. The difference is that when you do, the information about your (anonymous) contacts is also provided to the health authorities, whereas in the de-centralised system the information only goes to the contacts. That is a fairly subtle distiction in my opinion.

Even if the source code of the backend would be open, there would be no way of verifying it.

That is what I have been saying from the start

That means, whatever data processing is going on, nobody can check. This would make my alarm bells ring. The question here is: what is the real reason that the British are pushing such a questionable approach?

Look, this whole situation is completely new to everyone. The very idea of contact tracing apps is weird and unprecedented. The difference between the centralised and de-centralised approaches is not as huge as people think. In all cases, you absolutely have to trust the app does what the developers say it does. Personally, I trust the apps will do what the developers say.

Due to apple refusing that kind of approach, we might be in a better situation developing a decentralised app (privacy by design). I have no idea what the app will be asking but the very essential part - tracing possible infections, does not need any centralised approach, most will just happen on the users' phones (decentralised). Then, after an infection is confirmed, you can push your IDs from the last few days to a server and make them available to other phones to check whether they meet the conditions of having been close for too long. It "should" not be possible to track it back but, as there is also an IP address, it could be possible to put a name on the positive tested person with a little effort. But I would not think it matters as the person would already be known. In general, location tracking should not be part of the app.

It's correct to say that contact tracing does not require information to be delivered to the health authorities, but I think the UK NHS want this information for genuine reasons so they know where the outbreaks are occurring and to actively get in contact with people who might be affected by someone who reports an infection

It is a good, important discussion and, if people in charge hopefully look at it too, they can avoid problems and distrust. My decision is not made yet, I'll watch the development closely and, if it can not be verified, I most likely won't be part of any tracing app. "Can not be verified" means for me that the complete source is not released or the source is released too late.

I honestly don't know which is the better approach. But, the difference is not that great and I would download either kind of app so long as they provide a description of how it is supposed to work, and it makes sense and doesn't look for personal information etc.

poff

A corona-warn-app was released in Germany. I installed it to have a look. It only does what it is supposed to do: create IDs every 5 to 20 minutes that can be exchanged between smart phones and download the list of IDs of any infected. All anonymous and all voluntary. There are no extras to switch on or off. It is a pure tracing app - decentralised and open source. According to the German news, the app has been checked by the Chaos Computer Club and they praised the transparency of the making and the collaboration with the community. That is something the makers can be proud of as the CCC would usually not go that far.

What is happening in Ireland? Life is going back to normality and still no app - and no information about it. There is the opportunity to grab the German source code of the app, adjust it a little and release the app and its source code next Monday. Save a lot of money, send the German developers some flowers and be happy with an app that is able to interact with the German app. Sorry, I am dreaming, reality is different

Jammyd

poff wrote: »

A corona-warn-app was released in Germany. I installed it to have a look. It only does what it is supposed to do: create IDs every 5 to 20 minutes that can be exchanged between smart phones and download the list of IDs of any infected. All anonymous and all voluntary. There are no extras to switch on or off. It is a pure tracing app - decentralised and open source. According to the German news, the app has been checked by the Chaos Computer Club and they praised the transparency of the making and the collaboration with the community. That is something the makers can be proud of as the CCC would usually not go that far.

What is happening in Ireland? Life is going back to normality and still no app - and no information about it. There is the opportunity to grab the German source code of the app, adjust it a little and release the app and its source code next Monday. Save a lot of money, send the German developers some flowers and be happy with an app that is able to interact with the German app. Sorry, I am dreaming, reality is different

Agree with the above, An App is now a necessity with the relaxation of rules, a couple of friends over in Germany have started using the App there and so far so good, why on earth are things so much more complicated here, when this can be rolled out in Germany which is super strict and paranoid about any invasion of citizen tracking or data gathering why the hell is it so difficult here? we also only have all the major software giants on our doorstep to assist!

DevilsHaircut

I took part in the behavioural survey on using the app.

How it works and what data you can allow it to collect are explained in the trial doc https://www2.hse.ie/services/covid-tracker-app/red-c-bru-trial-dpin-covid-tracker-app.pdf

It's very easy to use, and I'll have no issues at all about opting into all of the data sharing requests.

It's currently going through an operational trial with the Gardaí before roll-out shortly.

It only uses Bluetooth - no GPS.

plodder

poff wrote: »

A corona-warn-app was released in Germany. I installed it to have a look. It only does what it is supposed to do: create IDs every 5 to 20 minutes that can be exchanged between smart phones and download the list of IDs of any infected. All anonymous and all voluntary. There are no extras to switch on or off. It is a pure tracing app - decentralised and open source. According to the German news, the app has been checked by the Chaos Computer Club and they praised the transparency of the making and the collaboration with the community. That is something the makers can be proud of as the CCC would usually not go that far.

Are you in Germany? I don't think you can install the app unless you are in the country, or can fake being there somehow (VPN?)

What is happening in Ireland? Life is going back to normality and still no app - and no information about it. There is the opportunity to grab the German source code of the app, adjust it a little and release the app and its source code next Monday. Save a lot of money, send the German developers some flowers and be happy with an app that is able to interact with the German app. Sorry, I am dreaming, reality is different

The sooner our app is available the better obviously, but life going back to normality is not in itself a problem, as it will be needed for the next wave if/when it occurs.

is_that_so

poff wrote: »

A corona-warn-app was released in Germany. I installed it to have a look. It only does what it is supposed to do: create IDs every 5 to 20 minutes that can be exchanged between smart phones and download the list of IDs of any infected. All anonymous and all voluntary. There are no extras to switch on or off. It is a pure tracing app - decentralised and open source. According to the German news, the app has been checked by the Chaos Computer Club and they praised the transparency of the making and the collaboration with the community. That is something the makers can be proud of as the CCC would usually not go that far.

What is happening in Ireland? Life is going back to normality and still no app - and no information about it. There is the opportunity to grab the German source code of the app, adjust it a little and release the app and its source code next Monday. Save a lot of money, send the German developers some flowers and be happy with an app that is able to interact with the German app. Sorry, I am dreaming, reality is different

Just to be fair the German app has been at least 2 months in the making and they've had their own issues with privacy.

Here's a piece from late April on it

https://www.zdnet.com/article/germany-pivots-from-centralized-coronavirus-tracing-app-to-privacy-protecting-alternative/

poff

DevilsHaircut...

Thanks for the link. That was quite a bit of reading. I prefer the German app as it only does the tracing, no data collected on how the app is used. I know, one has to give one's consent but this is where I would love to see the source code... I guess, I have to analyse the packages to find out what the app is doing and what it is connecting to. All information is most likely encrypted but if it is not transparent (open source), if I am prevented from checking, I might not feel good about it.

I would not be sure whether the data, on how the app is used, can be useful. People, who do not mind sharing the data, will enable everything and others will not even share that information and enable only the essentials (or will not install the app). I do not understand the advantage, and risking the trust is a big disadvantage. I think, it is more than enough if you see that the app has been downloaded 3 million times. That would tell you that probably little less that 3 million users are using it.

I like the German app. They did everything (only the bare minimum to make it work) to make sure that people will trust the app. Less is more.

plodder
I am not in Germany, I set the country on my phone to Germany due to a few advantages.

is_that_so
They had their issues with privacy. But they released the source code while developing and were taking advice from the community - a pretty transparent process.

plodder

Apple and Google labelled ‘disgraceful’ over UK Government app U-turn

Silly stuff over in the UK. They were out on a limb, trying to do something with their app that they were told wouldn't work, and some are now blaming the people who told them it wouldn't work.

Health Sec Hancock says UK will use Apple-Google API for virus contact-tracing app after all (even though Apple were right rotters)

[Deleted User]

What’s the hold up with this?

poff

plodder wrote: »

Apple and Google labelled ‘disgraceful’ over UK Government app U-turn

Silly stuff over in the UK. They were out on a limb, trying to do something with their app that they were told wouldn't work, and some are now blaming the people who told them it wouldn't work.

Health Sec Hancock says UK will use Apple-Google API for virus contact-tracing app after all (even though Apple were right rotters)

Yes, they were told... I am waiting for the same to happen in France.

My guess is, that google and apple have too much to lose, it is about privacy and they just want to minimise the risk of getting blamed for privacy issues associated with the tracing app.

In Germany, they are complaining that the app will not work with "older" phones. Well, the capability of older hardware has its limitations with those new modern requirements.

Jim_Hodge

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/technology/will-the-irish-contact-tracing-app-ever-materialise-1.4283739

poff

Of course, there are problems as bluetooth was not invented to measure distance accurately in all environments. What I am wondering here is: an app has been developed in different countries and, I guess, everybody has the same problems. Collaboration might be sensible considering the costs. Is that an idea that is shared between all app developers and google and apple? Or is everybody playing with one's own toys trying to solve the problem?

4068ac1elhodqr

poff wrote: »

Of course, there are problems as bluetooth was not invented to measure distance accurately in all environments. What I am wondering here is: an app has been developed in different countries and, I guess, everybody has the same problems. Collaboration might be sensible considering the costs. Is that an idea that is shared between all app developers and google and apple? Or is everybody playing with one's own toys trying to solve the problem?

The only easily workable routes are the same methods as more authoritarian states (some in Asia and Mid East) that use GPS along with BT for exact positions.

Alas not ideal for more modern states to track all it's subjects, all of the time. Some even issue passive tracking bracelets during any 2wk quarantine period.

Saying that, with the rise of IOT, BT beacons (BTLE), along with coming 5G on pretty much every single lampost (5-10yrs) public building and street furniture relays... it won't be long before an exact location triangulation facility can be acheived, even when user selects 'flight-mode'.

plodder

poff wrote: »

Of course, there are problems as bluetooth was not invented to measure distance accurately in all environments. What I am wondering here is: an app has been developed in different countries and, I guess, everybody has the same problems. Collaboration might be sensible considering the costs. Is that an idea that is shared between all app developers and google and apple? Or is everybody playing with one's own toys trying to solve the problem?

I think the complicated part of this is what Apple and google are providing. The apps shouldn't really be all that complicated (so long as the services provided by apple and google are working as expected). Each country is likely to have different requirements on the app apart from the basic contact tracing capability.

poff

Hahahaha

https://twitter.com/Independent/status/1275787007730409472?s=19

poff

https://www.rte.ie/news/coronavirus/2020/0624/1149289-contract-tracing-app/

A log-in with username and password? Does that mean I have to register with the HSE? Seriously? Where is the privacy? I have no idea what kind of virus the people, who were deciding on the app's features, got infected with. Why would they risk excluding people who have privacy concerns? No open source, serious privacy issues - No, No, No. That's how I feel right now. I would not have those concerns with the German app as, I said this before, it only does what it is supposed to do - contact tracing. No registering, no statistics and it is open source. It is as private as it can possibly be. Even the Chaos Computer Club (in Germany well known) did not have any objections - they don't easily say that.

And due to the closed source, nobody knows what kind of bugs are in the software. That's on top of an app that ignores the privacy. Hint: if an app, that is so important in the fight of a virus, is not even safe to use due to many unsolved issues (I say this because the software can not be checked and verified by the open source community and due to serious privacy issues), how will it work as intended? Even if they find 60% of people who are willing to install such badly designed software, quite a proportion of these people will not be able to install the software as it only works on reasonably new phones, I think no older than 4 or 5 years. I have one of those phones but I have issues with what I know about the software.

The survey conducted by UL and NUIG found that 82% of Irish adults are willing to download a contact tracing app to their smartphone.

I would like to see that survey - yes/no question?

expectationlost

so heres the HSE press release if it hasn't been posted arleady https://www.hse.ie/eng/services/news/media/pressrel/department-of-health-and-the-hse-today-announce-the-publication-of-the-covid-tracker-app-data-protection-impact-assessment-and-source-code1.html

poff

yes and https://www.hse.ie/eng/services/news/newsfeatures/covid19-updates/covid-tracker-app/

A lot of reading. I think, I can take some of my reservations back - I gladly do

plodder

I'm pretty sure you don't have to register to use it either.

Seems to be a form of user guide here

https://github.com/HSEIreland/covidtracker-documentation/blob/master/documentation/COVID%20Tracker%20App%20-%20Product%20Explainer_v1.0.pdf

poff

It does not look like having to register. The RTE article was very misleading showing a login screen.

plodder

poff wrote: »

It does not look like having to register. The RTE article was very misleading showing a login screen.

Yes, it's misleading and unhelpful. They were talking about the app on Newstalk the other day and did a Vox pop. One young person said she wouldn't download it because she didn't want to be "tracked". It will be a challenge to overcome these misconceptions.