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Leo says the Civil Service is 'very white'

Akesh

Imagine the shock and horror in Leinster House when it was discovered that a country, where over 91% of the population are white, has a civil service that is 'very white'. To correct this error, he would like to use targets for the civil service to hire more minorities.

These kinds of targets are illogical and in no way should a public servant be hired on the basis of their skin colour or race but this is what he wants to introduce.

Is this just another reactionary policy in reaction to the death of George Floyd or does it have merit? Obviously recruiters in the civil service are racists otherwise there would be no need for such a policy/target.

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Rockbeast2

CrankyHaus wrote: »

The elephant in the room is that entry to public sector jobs is still heavily influenced by family connections.
Immigrants and their children don't have these connections so they don't get the jobs.
Any sincere attempt to address this would tackle the nepotism problem.
Instead we'll just get some tokenistic affirmitive action to create a racially diverse public sector that still hires on nepotism.

It would still have its issues, but I would probably be okay with a 5 to 10 year period wherein no spouses, siblings, children, nephews or nieces, of a current employee were permitted to be hired in a civil service department. If it would thin out the "family connections" and mini-fiefdoms in certain areas, it would be a positive thing.

anplaya27

CrankyHaus wrote: »

The elephant in the room is that entry to public sector jobs is still heavily influenced by family connections.
Immigrants and their children don't have these connections so they don't get the jobs.
Any sincere attempt to address this would tackle the nepotism problem.
Instead we'll just get some tokenistic affirmitive action to create a racially diverse public sector that still hires on nepotism.

How?

The opportunities in the civil service are open and available to everyone every year online no? Are you saying there someone hired to flag family members of current civil servants or something and out them forward for special treatment? How would that work?

y0ssar1an22

its only a matter of time before they try to bring in further quotas. there are already quotas based on your gender.

how much of a role does the media play in this? stoking the flames so to speak.

sad day for our country when the leader bows to some media pressure. man up leo (can i say that anymore or will the rabble come for me?) would you!

same reason the government of the ivory coast is 'very' black

Yurt2

CrankyHaus wrote: »

The elephant in the room is that entry to public sector jobs is still heavily influenced by family connections.
Immigrants and their children don't have these connections so they don't get the jobs.
Any sincere attempt to address this would tackle the nepotism problem.
Instead we'll just get some tokenistic affirmitive action to create a racially diverse public sector that still hires on nepotism.

That's a bit of a myth. The civil service is open recruitment and merit based.

Semi-state quangos are a bit different and I'd say there's a sorts of hiring stunts pulled, but the civil service itself is meritocratic

jam_mac_jam

Yurt! wrote: »

That's a bit of a myth. The civil service is open recruitment and merit based.

Semi-state quangos are a bit different and I'd say there's a sorts of hiring stunts pulled, but the civil service itself is meritocratic

I think it is. The application process is very extensive.

I was looking at it a few years ago and the application form itself was insanely detailed.

[Deleted User]

Public sector is far less diverse than the private sector.

I mean for a start the Irish language requirements for language teachers for example are ridiculous. No wonder no one can actually speak French or German here after years of "learning" it in school. Imagine having a native teacher teaching you their language.

The average brickie will meet more "foreigners" in a day on a building site than some public sector employees will meet in a year.

kildare lad

CrankyHaus wrote: »

The elephant in the room is that entry to public sector jobs is still heavily influenced by family connections.
Immigrants and their children don't have these connections so they don't get the jobs.
Any sincere attempt to address this would tackle the nepotism problem.
Instead we'll just get some tokenistic affirmitive action to create a racially diverse public sector that still hires on nepotism.

I know a fella that works in the civil service , a family member got him in . He couldn't hold down a job in the private sector until till he got in there. It says a lot about the people running this country . I've also dealing with other government bodies , the mismanagement and lack of people who are unwilling to stick the head over the parapet when something is ridiculous . They just wanna ride their job out as easy as they can because it's nearly impossible to lose your job once you get in .

Ninthlife

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Public sector is far less diverse than the private sector.

I mean for a start the Irish language requirements for language teachers for example are ridiculous. No wonder no one can actually speak French or German here after years of "learning" it in school. Imagine having a native teacher teaching you their language.

The average brickie will meet more "foreigners" in a day on a building site than some public sector employees will meet in a year.

What difference does it make if a private sector worker meets more foreigners than a public sector worker?

jam_mac_jam

I really hope they don't start bringing in quotas. For sex or for race.
It's very unfair.

Wibbs

Ninthlife wrote: »

Do you reckon the Nigerian president or PM is sitting in Lagos thinking, 'you know what I think the Nigerian civil service is too black'

Well you've hit the nail on the head there. "Diversity" only seems to apply to White people and nations. Your "progressives" see a White majority nation and culture and insist it needs "diversity". The right kind of course, IE more non Whites. A few thousand Italians/Spaniards/Germans won't cut it. East Asian folks don't really cut it so much either.

Now if one were to suggest after an hour walking around say Kampala that what this place needs is a load more White folks, there would be ructions, much gnashing of teeth and noises about colonialism and cultural appropriation and the like, but oul Whitey needs more dark faces to be "correct".

It's utter bollocks and as so called "multicultural" nations have shown causes all sorts of extra divisions and social problems, not least for the non native population and for generations with it. Show me any multicultural nation where social progress and social issues aren't drawn along racial lines. Good luck with that.

Ireland has until very recently been a largely monocultural country, certainly along "race" lines, yet even in that brief snapshot of time since the late 90's where that changed and not by much either, we're already seeing the seeds of the crap of every single other European nation that has run this idiotic social experiment has had to deal with and continues to deal with.

Modern multiculturalism doesn't work. Can multiculturalism work? Rarely, but it has to a large degree a few times in history, the Roman Empire, the Islamic empire, the Chinese empire to some degree. And that's the irony; it only seems to work in cultures that are more hardline and rigid, even "right wing" in outlook, and most of all cock sure of themselves as a culture. It most certainly doesn't work in cultures without a clear self confidence and a lack of self loathing.

y0ssar1an22

Deleted User wrote: »

Public sector is far less diverse than the private sector.

I mean for a start the Irish language requirements for language teachers for example are ridiculous. No wonder no one can actually speak French or German here after years of "learning" it in school. Imagine having a native teacher teaching you their language.

i dont give a $hit, nor should you; unless you can prove its due to racism. best person for the job, i couldn't care less if you're illuminous green. once you make me money i will hire you.

and if you want to run for government, fire away. stop complaining and try to actually affect a change.

Jimmy Garlic

anplaya27 wrote: »

How?

The opportunities in the civil service are open and available to everyone every year online no? Are you saying there someone hired to flag family members of current civil servants or something and out them forward for special treatment? How would that work?

Advertise the job, to keep up appearances interview people you have no intention of giving the job to whatsoever despite their aptitude and ability then employ the relation lined up for the job before it was even advertised. It’s quite simple really. Yeah the civil service is crooked to the core and jam packed with absolutely profoundly useless and corrupt people as a result. A minority person has the same chance of not getting a job with the civil service as anyone else who isn’t related to someone on the inside.

[Deleted User]

Just wait for all the racial discrimination cases brought by white people who didn't get the job based on their race.

Ninthlife

kildare lad wrote: »

I know a fella that works in the civil service , a family member got him in . He couldn't hold down a job in the private sector until till he got in there. It says a lot about the people running this country . I've also dealing with other government bodies , the mismanagement and lack of people who are unwilling to stick the head over the parapet when something is ridiculous . They just wanna ride their job out as easy as they can because it's nearly impossible to lose your job once you get in .

Im going to call bull**** on that claim. In order to get into the civil service you firstly need to pass an exam and not only pass it but score high enough to be called to interview. Then you are required to sit a competency based interview that usually consists of 3 board members.

So tell me how one person managed to influence not only a persons exam score but also 3 independent people on an interview board to allow this person into a job?

[Deleted User]

Jimmy Garlic wrote: »

Advertise the job, to keep up appearances interview people you have no intention of giving the job to whatsoever despite their aptitude and ability then employ the relation lined up for the job before it was even advertised. It’s quite simple really. Yeah the civil service is crooked to the core and jam packed with absolutely profoundly useless and corrupt people as a result. A minority person has the same chance of not getting a job with the civil service as anyone else who isn’t related to someone on the inside.

Have you evidence of this? If so there are means of exposing this corruption.

kildare lad

Ninthlife wrote: »

Im going to call bull**** on that claim. In order to get into the civil service you firstly need to pass an exam and not only pass it but score high enough to be called to interview. Then you are required to sit a competency based interview that usually consists of 3 board members.

So tell me how one person managed to influence not only a persons exam score but also 3 independent people on an interview board to allow this person into a job?

Yes he passed an exam , hes smart but probably one of the laziest people I know . He wouldn't last 5 mins in private sector ,

CrankyHaus

Yurt! wrote: »

That's a bit of a myth. The civil service is open recruitment and merit based.

Semi-state quangos are a bit different and I'd say there's a sorts of hiring stunts pulled, but the civil service itself is meritocratic

If you say so. I don't have significant experience of the Civil Service. But I have plenty with semi-states, Councils and other parts of the public sector; and they're highly nepotistic.

That includes organisations that nominally hire through the Public Appointments Service and I've found that any reputation for independent merit-based selection is a myth.

Without further evidence I see no reason to believe that the Civil Service is some shining beacon of best-practice in that grubby sea of nepotism.

Ninthlife

kildare lad wrote: »

Yes he passed an exam , hes smart but probably one of the laziest people I know . He wouldn't last 5 mins in private sector ,

But you said a family member got him the job?

Are you monitoring his work output?

Lots and lots of lazy people in all sectors

TheCitizen

Yurt! wrote: »

Another measured contribution from yourself.

Of course you'll now tell us you and your political fellow travellers will allow an honest and dispassionate discussion about what type of immigration is appropriate and desirable for Ireland.

All the while lecturing everyone where the goalposts should be.

That's not what this thread was started about, a debate about that needs to be had and needs to be accurate and measured.

On here though we get scaremongering and lies that Irish people will lose out etc. if we get a proportionate representation of people from different backgrounds in our civil and public services. The usual suspects taking advantage of the opportunity to unleash their bile. It's like Stormfront on these pages these days, wall to wall racist scum.

5555555555

Leos acting like a malfunctioning robot stuck on PC.

Ninthlife

For all the people here who are so aware of corrupt hiring practices I would suggest letting the Commission for Public Service Appointments know of your claims.

www.cpsa.ie

They audit recruitment competitions to ensure fairness, transperancy and best practice

But I suppose theyre corrupt too

TheCitizen

Yurt! wrote: »

The major barrier to minorities teaching in Ireland is the Irish language requirement to be honest.

I had an American friend who wished to teach here but was put off by it. I tried to tell her a year's spadework learning and a Gaeltacht homestay would have probably got her over line, but it wasn't for her in the end.

She would have made a fine addition to any staff room but cest la vie

Irish isn't a barrier. You can learn Irish the same as any other language, or learn enough to get by. If she really wanted the job she would have got it.

TheCitizen

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

I really hope they don't start bringing in quotas. For sex or for race.
It's very unfair.

I've hear that mentioned over the years in relation to sex but with race; I don't think that has been mentioned any bar here.

kildare lad

Ninthlife wrote: »

But you said a family member got him the job?

Are you monitoring his work output?

Lots and lots of lazy people in all sectors

Yes I'd agreed with that , but they usually get found out and they aren't running the country. Most energetic and go getters go into the private sector not the public sector.

cloudatlas

The reasons for this- Compensating for past wrongs giving people preference to make up for past discrimination that has placed people at an unfair disadvantage.

Promoting diversity. A racially mixed workplace enables us to learn more from each other and about the people in our community which we are working with. Drawing people from one pool limits the range of intellectual and cultural perspectives. Equipping minorities to have the opportunity to gain positions of leadership advances the civic purposes of such government bodies and contributes to the common good.

Nobody has a right to be considered under any specific criteria that they wish, it is up to the employer to set the criteria for the job.

cloudatlas

Gradius wrote: »

How to build problems; The Guide

1) Destabilise a country by inviting in anyone and everyone.

2) Anyone and everyone besides Irish people start complaining that the country isn't to their liking.

3) Start exclusionary programs to benefit people other than Irish in ireland.

Can't wait to see the successes of step 4, although the utopia of the United States society is a glimpse.

In all seriousness though, this is outrageous. Even the hint of what's to come, that some Irish people are going to be excluded to make way for someone else in a huge sector of the country's jobs. Bonkers. And it won't go unseen either.

This isn't the United States or the United Kingdom, and we owe nobody.

People on this forum are always posting about being hurt all the time and then believing that it is these 'other' people who are the source of their pain as opposed to the real problem which is the government not properly enforcing the provision of more social housing, not discouraging dereliction of property in Dublin, not correctly examining the transport infrastructure of a city which has grown in popularity because of it's growing IT industry etc., or not properly supporting small business employers who employ half the population during a Coronavirus crisis and therefore it is not the fault of the Government it is people coming into the country from elsewhere and the minorities. I hear that you are hurting but it is government policy which is hurting you and not people from other countries coming to Ireland.

[Deleted User]

CrankyHaus wrote: »

If you say so. I don't have significant experience of the Civil Service. But I have plenty with semi-states, Councils and other parts of the public sector; and they're highly nepotistic.

Me neither, however, my cousins side of the family are heavily invested in the civil service (9 sons/daughters all spread around the service), and we've had 'those' conversations. Nepotism still exists, but it's very much reduced from the 80s. There are too many people who made it due to their own abilities/skills, and have zero patience for the 'game', so nepotism is sliding into memory rather fast.

Some people seem to think that Ireland hasn't changed in the last thirty years. It has.

Without further evidence I see no reason to believe that the Civil Service is some shining beacon of best-practice in that grubby sea of nepotism.

It would make more sense to produce evidence that it does exist, rather than seeking evidence that it doesn't exist or that it is diminished. You're using personal experiences or hearsay as reference, as are others, like myself. Personally, I'd imagine it exists in limited form, simply because some people don't change and will favor family members, but i seriously doubt it's as widespread as you're suggesting. You're welcome to provide some evidence to show that it is....

dresden8

Bowie wrote: »

Is there a direct quote? Depends on the context. I suspect he's just being super 'right on' for PR, but a quote would be nice.
Gone be the days when your accent and family connections got you in.

You're thinking of local government and the old health boards.

The civil service commission which is now the PAS never had a whiff of scandal around them.

CrankyHaus

Ninthlife wrote: »

For all the people here who are so aware of corrupt hiring practices I would suggest letting the Commission for Public Service Appointments know of your claims.

www.cpsa.ie

They audit recruitment competitions to ensure fairness, transperancy and best practice

But I suppose theyre corrupt too

Why should we when we know nothing will be done?

You're like those apologists for FF who used to say if anyone had any evidence of corruption why didn't they report it to the Gardaí.
Or the ones before that who said if anyone had any actual evidence of abuse by servants of the Church why didn't they report it.

In all cases it was universally understood that a corrupt system has zero interest in reforming itself, and those who profit pile onto anyone who calls out corruption.

TheCitizen

kildare lad wrote: »

Yes I'd agreed with that , but they usually get found out and they aren't running the country. Most energetic and go getters go into the private sector not the public sector.

Amazing the way people come out with these sweeping statements based on nothing but their ill informed opinion. There is zero evidence for what you said there. Nonsense, but of course it gets said and then perpetuates.