How will schools be able to go back in September?

FishOnABike wrote: »

Silent spreading in schools could be a problem alright. Between the already high proportion of asymptomatic but contagious cases and younger children seeming to have milder symptoms it may be more difficult to detect until a more vulnerable person is infected.

It won't be so much though, I mean even now we have virtually zero reported community cases. Most cases now relate to known clusters.

It is projected that the cases will die out come end of July.

If we continue the way we are going then it wouldn't be a big risk and faster testing and contact tracing will stop any reintroduction before it has a chance to spread much.

Spanish Eyes

Zahir Bitter Cellist wrote: »

It won't be so much though, I mean even now we have virtually zero reported community cases. Most cases now relate to known clusters.

It is projected that the cases will die out come end of July.

If we continue the way we are going then it wouldn't be a big risk and faster testing and contact tracing will stop any reintroduction before it has a chance to spread much.

That's because of social distancing though. Will not and cannot be replicated in schools, and the most vulnerable are the teachers, SNAs and support staff. Together with multiple families at home whose kids might be in contact with other kid carriers IMO.

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Indeed, and all families who have kids in a school.

But anyway. The Dutch return to school scheme seems to be working ok. Can't find the link right now, but they have pupils back for two days at a time. Each class is in for two days, then a deep clean, then the next cohort is in for the last two days. Another deep clean.

So Monday, Tuesday..... deep clean Wednesday, Thursday Friday for the next classes. Another deep clean.

I dunno, my NDN has a grandson in school in Eindhoven and this is what I'm told.

Two things.

1. That idea was floated about partial weeks in school or week on, week off scenario and you had some on here giving out stink about lazy teachers and so on and would they not just get on with things.

2. The money for the deep clean, daily/hourly/weekly. We talked about this as a staff and where we could get the money to facilitate it, money to pay for the materials needed. Sure as hell won't be coming from the government.

kandr10

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Two things.

1. That idea was floated about partial weeks in school or week on, week off scenario and you had some on here giving out stink about lazy teachers and so on and would they not just get on with things.

2. The money for the deep clean, daily/hourly/weekly. We talked about this as a staff and where we could get the money to facilitate it, money to pay for the materials needed. Sure as hell won't be coming from the government.

Two very good points. The amount of times it’s been said on here ‘sure why can’t we get on with things the way they are in Europe’ without taking into account the measures they’re implementing.
The funding is a huge issue. People often complain about being asked for a voluntary contribution, not realising it literally pays for the most basic of things like heating and toilet paper. If everyone thought we should model ourselves on what European schools are doing in education, we’d have far more people rallying for better funding and smaller class sizes generally. The comparisons to Europe are only in relation to the handling of covid unfortunately!

FishOnABike

kandr10 wrote: »

Two very good points. The amount of times it’s been said on here ‘sure why can’t we get on with things the way they are in Europe’ without taking into account the measures they’re implementing.
The funding is a huge issue. People often complain about being asked for a voluntary contribution, not realising it literally pays for the most basic of things like heating and toilet paper. If everyone thought we should model ourselves on what European schools are doing in education, we’d have far more people rallying for better funding and smaller class sizes generally. The comparisons to Europe are only in relation to the handling of covid unfortunately!

Even if the government made the funds adailable to deep clean every school twice a week where would they find enough specialist companies to do the work ?

FishOnABike wrote: »

Even if the government made the funds adailable to deep clean every school twice a week where would they find enough specialist companies to do the work ?

That also came up during our staff meeting. We fully expect that the dept will probably produce a webinar that we'll have to watch during those waste of time CP hours that will 'train' us to be deep clean experts and then the deep cleaning box will be ticked.

I was talking to a friend of mine the other day and her sister is a nurse. She was saying when her sister comes home from work, the routine is to have an immediate shower and put her uniform on for a wash and then greet her family. It got me thinking about teachers clothes and that it might be no bad idea for teachers to be putting together a kind of no fuss weekly 'uniform' for themselves. Often our nicest clothes do not stand up to constant washing and ironing. It's a small issue but still.

Mrsmum wrote: »

I was talking to a friend of mine the other day and her sister is a nurse. She was saying when her sister comes home from work, the routine is to have an immediate shower and put her uniform on for a wash and then greet her family. It got me thinking about teachers clothes and that it might be no bad idea for teachers to be putting together a kind of no fuss weekly 'uniform' for themselves. Often our nicest clothes do not stand up to constant washing and ironing. It's a small issue but still.

I have what I consider 'work' clothes anyway. Don't we all?

screamer

I think there is a real lack of leadership from the government on this. Measures take time to implement yet they seem to not even gave a solid plan. It’s unfair on the kids, parents and teachers.

I think a better question is, how long will the kids be able to stay in school before the next wave comes. It will come with flu season so I fully expect another major disruption to schools/ crèches in the late autumn again, and I’d like to see some sort of cohesive continuity plan that is uniform with expectations and guidance for virtual learning

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

I have what I consider 'work' clothes anyway. Don't we all?

For a lot of people, work wear is office attire. And a lot of other people have uniforms. Teachers are in the public eye so usually present themselves very well imo. Not fit to go to a wedding or anything but still nicely turned out. They are in the majority women who work with lots of other women which ups the style game. Alot of 'style' mightn't stand up to hot washes. As I say not a biggie but no harm in considering it.

screamer wrote: »

I think there is a real lack of leadership from the government on this. Measures take time to implement yet they seem to not even gave a solid plan. It’s unfair on the kids, parents and teachers.

I think a better question is, how long will the kids be able to stay in school before the next wave comes. It will come with flu season so I fully expect another major disruption to schools/ crèches in the late autumn again, and I’d like to see some sort of cohesive continuity plan that is uniform with expectations and guidance for virtual learning

I have a son going into 6th year in Sept. I am so worried about the year ahead for him as can't imagine anything but disruptions. Have children in other classes but he is my main worry.

is_that_so

screamer wrote: »

I think there is a real lack of leadership from the government on this. Measures take time to implement yet they seem to not even gave a solid plan. It’s unfair on the kids, parents and teachers.

I think a better question is, how long will the kids be able to stay in school before the next wave comes. It will come with flu season so I fully expect another major disruption to schools/ crèches in the late autumn again, and I’d like to see some sort of cohesive continuity plan that is uniform with expectations and guidance for virtual learning

It's the DoE not the government. From conversations with people who've been dealing with the DoE in recent weeks, their one and only focus is the LC grading system. Everything else is on hold for now. Personally wonder about the constant alarm over the second wave myself as we now apparently have a system that could respond a lot better to that.

plodder

FishOnABike wrote: »

Even if the government made the funds adailable to deep clean every school twice a week where would they find enough specialist companies to do the work ?

Deep cleaning seems completely OTT. All it takes is one child to sneeze on a table during the day and the work is wasted. Much better for teachers to watch out for sneezing and get kids to spray/wipe their tables regularly and after sneezing etc.

khalessi

plodder wrote: »

Deep cleaning seems completely OTT. All it takes is one child to sneeze on a table during the day and the work is wasted. Much better for teachers to watch out for sneezing and get kids to spray/wipe their tables regularly and after sneezing etc.

Children would not be allowed to clean up fer themselves. And a school would need to deep cleaned daily properly for coss infection purpose consideriing how many people are in them.

is_that_so wrote: »

Personally wonder about the constant alarm over the second wave myself as we now apparently have a system that could respond a lot better to that.

Yes I think people seem very unwilling to consider that the risk has already been mostly eliminated.

0.04% of our population is currently infected and yet we are still playing economic suicide.

Testing and contact tracing will be our best defence from new spread. There won't be much need for social distancing and PPE once the risk is gone (which it more or less is).

lulublue22

khalessi wrote: »

Children would not be allowed to clean up fer themselves. And a school would need to deep cleaned daily properly for coss infection purpose consideriing how many people are in them.

I really can not see daily deep cleaning going ahead. The cost and time associated with it seems prohibitive.

plodder

khalessi wrote: »

Children would not be allowed to clean up fer themselves. And a school would need to deep cleaned daily properly for coss infection purpose consideriing how many people are in them.

People are saying that now but when resources are tight I think the reality that this is an airborne virus will prevail. Maybe some kind of more practical ideas will emerge like spraying the entire room at the end of the day, but I just can't see labour intensive 'deep cleaning' happening.

Also, if children can't clean up after themselves, then teachers will have to do it, presumably.

khalessi

lulublue22 wrote: »

I really can not see daily deep cleaning going ahead. The cost and time associated with it seems prohibitive.

I feel the same but I do think it should be put to the department. Afterall people keep demanding on this threads that schools need to be open. Look at Europe etc. Well lets look at Europe, the schools have various policies implemented, smaller classes, in different days, but all have whole stragegies of cleaning and hand washing and disinfection of schools.

The least we should be demanding for our children as parents is a guaranteed clean environment. The government cannot say they are looking at Europe and then just write a fudge document full of media soundbites but leaving it to the teachers to sort out, which is more than likely what will happen and if teachers object due to Health and safety we will be told we are complaining and being fussy, despite a pandemic in full flow.e

khalessi wrote: »

I feel the same but I do think it should be put to the department. Afterall people keep demanding on this threads that schools need to be open. Look at Europe etc. Well lets look at Europe, the schools have various policies implemented, smaller classes, in different days, but all have whole stragegies of cleaning and hand washing and disinfection of schools.

The least we should be demanding for our children as parents is a guaranteed clean environment. The government cannot say they are looking at Europe and then just write a fudge document full of media soundbites but leaving it to the teachers to sort out, which is more than likely what will happen and if teachers object due to Health and safety we will be told we are complaining and being fussy, despite a pandemic in full flow.e

Fcuked if we do, fcuked if we don't. Either way the teachers will be at fault for some on here.

Agree though with the point about soundbites. Fully expect something to be produced that looks good on the surface but has zero practical detail for those of us on the ground.

A bell ringing every hour and all children sanitizing their hands then and every time they enter or leave the classroom will be as good as it gets imo. Fortunately that small step is actually of huge benefit with this disease.

khalessi wrote: »

I feel the same but I do think it should be put to the department. Afterall people keep demanding on this threads that schools need to be open. Look at Europe etc. Well lets look at Europe, the schools have various policies implemented, smaller classes, in different days, but all have whole stragegies of cleaning and hand washing and disinfection of schools.

The least we should be demanding for our children as parents is a guaranteed clean environment. The government cannot say they are looking at Europe and then just write a fudge document full of media soundbites but leaving it to the teachers to sort out, which is more than likely what will happen and if teachers object due to Health and safety we will be told we are complaining and being fussy, despite a pandemic in full flow.e

I'd be more concerned about the huge surge in illness due to the fact that if after all of this our immune systems won't know what any germ is with all the cleaning going on.

That and the chance we will be raising a generation of socially awkward agoraphobic OCD sufferers.

There's a balance to be had between having children clean their hands and nuking a classroom with alcohol several times a day.

The pandemic is not in full flow, it's more or less done here now thankfully and the habits that go along with that will soon be forgotten about so we can get back to living normally.

We did what we had to do to get this under control, that's been done now.

jrosen

Schools naturally are breeding grounds for bacteria, so many kids and adults in a shared space. Often no hot water, hand soap. Shared desk spaces.
Im not so sure I believe it possible to have the clean. Kids are disgusting little people. Between snot wiping, sneezing, no concept of personal space. Social distancing and children are 2 things that dont go hand in hand.

We are already behind, come September that gap will widen if we are looking at half days and reduced student numbers. There is no doubt this will have far reaching consequences for students. Some more than others. I would be more concerned for secondary students who are facing into exams in the coming years.

I was speaking to my friend yesterday, our kids in the same school. Her's one year above mine. They are doing the same work. The same math sheets, english sheets and irish audios.

morebabies

As well as kids having to be isolated for 14 days if displaying any illness symptoms, another issue would be if there is a confirmed case in a school, that school would surely have to close temporarily or if it didn't, parents would probably keep their kids off until the threat had passed.

In that case the Dept should be telling schools shortly, as well as figuring out the hygiene and social distancing aspects, to be ready at any given moment to close the school and transition immediately to full time Internet learning until further notice.
That's a huge ask, I don't envy working under those circumstances.

kandr10

Mrsmum wrote: »

A bell ringing every hour and all children sanitizing their hands then and every time they enter or leave the classroom will be as good as it gets imo. Fortunately that small step is actually of huge benefit with this disease.

In theory this sounds like a good idea and is of course a necessity. Just to point out some of the practical difficulties a lot of schools would face - classes would have to put on timetables for hand washing as there’s often 4-5 sinks to share between several classes. In my school it would be 120 kids roughly to 4 sinks. Also most likely a lot of schools would have to have a one way system to prevent people passing each other in narrow corridors. Co-ordinating children needing to leave for hand washing when they sneeze, cough, enter or leave or whatever on top of what’s scheduled would be hard with that in mind. None of it is impossible but just pointing out logistical difficulties people might not be aware of if they’ve not worked in a school. It takes literally 10-15 mins to get a class to the bathroom all at once.

khalessi

Well discussions are happening in the department regarding reopening and I can see parents complaining about any safety initiatives they may be thinking of implementing if it prevents the child being in school due to infection or temperature.

We may be down to 0.04% but it took just one case to put us where we are now, so precautions are necessary no matter how eager parents are to have their children back in school

kandr10 wrote: »

In theory this sounds like a good idea and is of course a necessity. Just to point out some of the practical difficulties a lot of schools would face - classes would have to put on timetables for hand washing as there’s often 4-5 sinks to share between several classes. In my school it would be 120 kids roughly to 4 sinks. Also most likely a lot of schools would have to have a one way system to prevent people passing each other in narrow corridors. Co-ordinating children needing to leave for hand washing when they sneeze, cough, enter or leave or whatever on top of what’s scheduled would be hard with that in mind. None of it is impossible but just pointing out logistical difficulties people might not be aware of if they’ve not worked in a school. It takes literally 10-15 mins to get a class to the bathroom all at once.

Forget about sinks. Not doable to do it that way. Hand sanitizers all the way. Children not allowed into school without it in their schoolbags and provided by school for those who can't afford it.

morebabies wrote: »

As well as kids having to be isolated for 14 days if displaying any illness symptoms, another issue would be if there is a confirmed case in a school, that school would surely have to close temporarily or if it didn't, parents would probably keep their kids off until the threat had passed.

In that case the Dept should be telling schools shortly, as well as figuring out the hygiene and social distancing aspects, to be ready at any given moment to close the school and transition immediately to full time Internet learning until further notice.
That's a huge ask, I don't envy working under those circumstances.

Why would there be a need for 14 day isolation period when testing has a turnaround of about 2 days currently and is improving by the day.

The reason for the lockdown was to halt massive unnoticed rampant spread and secondly to get testing and health services to a point where they had control and to learn more about the virus. All have been accomplished and the criteria for opening back up have been met.

Schools won't close for 2 weeks every time there's a case, testing and contact tracing will be used to ensure everyone can continue as normal.