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Ireland Team Talk XI: Team of nervoUS MOD warning Post 1

[Deleted User]

Continued from here
https://touch.boards.ie/thread/2057953711/251
All Ireland Senior XV related talk here.

MOD: Bear in mind this thread is starting during the World Cup window and the zero tolerance policy is in force. Trolling will be rewarded with an instant ban. For the duration of the tournament any mention of Zebo in this thread will not be permitted, it is just dragging current Ireland squad talk off topic.

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rayd3

Very normal Saturday night and Sunday morning for the goys. Screeching about Munster. Quoting the molfcast etc.

mfceiling

Shefwedfan wrote: »

That is such a waste of money. If your saying Bleyendaal is for cover? what use is a player who is always injured. Just promote the young lad and save the money. They ended up promoting Healy but still paying Bleyendaal. Crazy stuff

Bleyendaal retired this week.

sydthebeat

rayd3 wrote: »

Very normal Saturday night and Sunday morning for the goys. Screeching about Munster. Quoting the molfcast etc.

Perhaps you should actually go back and read the posts from yesterday.

The conversation was in regard to :

"We're going to see a lot more inter provincial transfers over the coming years and provinces relying on their academies much more."

And from that the idea of a draft, and the points re the over production from the leinster academy to the other provinces.

Nothing at all munster centric other the the outlier point that they import a high rate from south Africa, which is something that must be discussed in the context of producing players for Ireland

thomond2006

Shefwedfan wrote: »

I mentioned this on the Munster thread. It seems a very short term view taken by them. Let look at this season, Mathewson for one was resigned on a short term contract again. While Munster had plenty of cover and one of the most exciting young talents in Ireland sitting on a bench. Which other province would of handed Blyendaal another contract? sorry to be cruel but he is a constant injury risk and at this stage should really retire for his own health.

That is such a waste of money. If your saying Bleyendaal is for cover? what use is a player who is always injured. Just promote the young lad and save the money. They ended up promoting Healy but still paying Bleyendaal. Crazy stuff

Then they are releasing articles into the press about the lack of money to invest into schools??? Why not take that wages and stick into develpoment. They had the cover.

It was discussed on the molecast once about they seem to have no plan. Like who is sitting down and going "Right Casey, if no injuries he is going to start 5 games this season, 10 plus 1 in Europe, etc" but for all the players? I dont see it and they didnt either,.

Who in the organization is looking at the lack of player coming up via the system and going right Munster, you need to give me 100k fro the next 5 years to fix this. I don't see that?

It seems to be, complain about Leinster, complain enough and then buy a player. It needs to be better.

Look at Ulster, they got hammered for lack of progress for young players. They took a new approach, a number of great young player in the squad now and even more coming this season according to my mate who will light it up.

Maybe Munster should stop with the excuses and pointing the finger and just get on with it.

Maybe you should get your facts right before flogging the dead horse again. Bleyendaal just retired.

aloooof

sydthebeat wrote: »

Perhaps you should actually go back and read the posts from yesterday.

The conversation was in regard to :

"We're going to see a lot more inter provincial transfers over the coming years and provinces relying on their academies much more."

And from that the idea of a draft, and the points re the over production from the leinster academy to the other provinces.

Nothing at all munster centric other the the outlier point that they import a high rate from south Africa, which is something that must be discussed in the context of producing players for Ireland

You're overlooking the context of the project player here. I was never a big fan of it but whether you like it or not, that was seen as a way of producing players for Ireland when the rule was 3 years.

You're making it sound like Munster are overrun when they'll have only 2 NIQ players for next season. Two world class one's, at that. Do you think that's too many?

yerrahbah

Shefwedfan wrote: »

It seems to be, complain about Leinster, complain enough and then buy a player. It needs to be better.

Maybe Munster should stop with the excuses and pointing the finger and just get on with it.

I'm confused

Who from Munster is complaining about Leinster?

IRFU have final say on all players coming in, if they didn't want Munster signing these players then it wouldn't be happening

What excuses are you talking about?

And who is pointing the finger?

And who are they pointing the finger at?

thomond2006

Craig Casey had made 6 appearances (3+3) this season and had become second choice. With 8 regular reason games remaining he was looking at perhaps 6 or 7 more appearances while rotating with McCarthy, Cronin and Murray. 12 appearances in his first season in the seniors while turning 21 last month is plenty.

Casey is a great talent but is still very young and was still set to be in the academy before Leinster tried to poach him.

aloooof

thomond2006 wrote: »

Maybe you should get your facts right before flogging the dead horse again. Bleyendaal just retired.

Shefwedfan wrote: »

It was discussed on the molecast once about they seem to have no plan. Like who is sitting down and going "Right Casey, if no injuries he is going to start 5 games this season, 10 plus 1 in Europe, etc" but for all the players? I dont see it and they didnt either.

Thomond is right, Shef, you don't do yourself any favours at times with just getting stuff plain wrong.

Earlier in the week you were arguing there was plenty of games to go around for Leinster's prospects because Leinster average 50 games a season, for example. The magnitude of the error there just entirely undermines your argument.

You mentioned Casey; you've previously mentioned he will never see first team action while in Munster. Aside from the caps he has gained since, he had made his debut off the bench 10 days previously.

sydthebeat

aloooof wrote: »

You're overlooking the context of the project player here. I was never a big fan of it but whether you like it or not, that was seen as a way of producing players for Ireland when the rule was 3 years.

You're making it sound like Munster are overrun when they'll have only 2 NIQ players for next season. Two world class one's, at that. Do you think that's too many?

On the context of the discussion about academy players, this is pure goal post moving.

Perhaps it was just a lull, but it being ten years since the munster academy produced an Ireland regular screams that there is a problem.
Looking through the current munster squad doesn't exactly fill with confidence that this is soon to change either.
We could be looking at possibly 15 years from Murray to the next Ireland regular being a munster academy production.

Fair enough if munster chose to fill those gaps with imported project players... But let's not forget they imported quite a few NIQs in this period as well.

And as for having 2 NIQs next season, that will still be twice Leinsters number.

thomond2006

sydthebeat wrote: »

On the context of the discussion about academy players, this is pure goal post moving.

Perhaps it was just a lull, but it being ten years since the munster academy produced an Ireland regular screams that there is a problem.
Looking through the current munster squad doesn't exactly fill with confidence that this is soon to change either.
We could be looking at possibly 15 years from Murray to the next Ireland regular being a munster academy production.

Repeating myself again. These kind of posts are out of date. It was a lull but things are turning around.

4 players moved to the seniors from the academy for 2019/20, one of those is set to leave this summer: Sean O'Connor, Gavin Coombes, Craig Casey and Shane Daly.

4 players are moving to the seniors for 2020/21: Keynan Knox, Jack O'Sullivan, Alex McHenry and Liam Coombes. They are likely to be joined by Ben Healy who will replace Bleyendaal.

In previous years we had a similar of additions but were struck by the injury bug. For 2017/18 we had five academy players join the seniors: Brian Scott, Conor Oliver, Bill Johnston, Dan Goggin and Stephen Fitzgerald. The first three are going or gone due in large part to successive injuries. Stephen Fitzgerald left for Connacht as he was buried in the depth chart behind other young players like Calvin Nash.

Looking at those in the academy still, assuming Ben Healy moves up, Thomas Ahern, John Hodnett and Jake Flannery should join the senior squad in the future. There's also Jack Crowley who will likely join the academy for next season who did well for the 20s. The squad has been trimmed down in recent off-seasons also. 2019/20 had five less senior players than 2018/19 (43 vs 48). Assuming Ben Healy moves up, Wootton goes to Connacht as rumoured and all as yet out of contract players leave, Munster will have 43 again for 2020/21.

And as for having 2 NIQs next season, that will still be twice Leinsters number.

Calling one more player "twice the number". Move over Alastair Campbell!

aloooof

sydthebeat wrote: »

On the context of the discussion about academy players, this is pure goal post moving.

I was literally responding to a post where you said this. So who exactly is doing the goalpost moving?

sydthebeat wrote: »

Nothing at all munster centric other the the outlier point that they import a high rate from south Africa, which is something that must be discussed in the context of producing players for Ireland

sydthebeat wrote: »

And as for having 2 NIQs next season, that will still be twice Leinsters number.

As Thomond alluded to, this is 2v1. If it was 8v4 or more you may have the crux of a point, but you don't. What number of NIQ players do you think is acceptable?

Buer

And as for having 2 NIQs next season, that will still be twice Leinsters number.

So bloody what?!

thomond2006

Buer wrote: »

So bloody what?!

Join us Buer.

Buer

Clowns to the left of me, culchies to the right.

The Lost Sheep

sydthebeat wrote: »

Not petty at all, the bokke connection is there clear as day for all to see and if you don't see it, well that says a lot more about how you choose to view it

And the comment that somehow connects schools rugby to Ireland failures at RWCs is so beyond out there that I suggest you put the drink down. That's marvel level fantasy working right there.

Schools rugby, especially Leinsters schools rugby, develop the raw material that the provinces are presented with to mould into top class players.

The reason Ireland continuously fail to be one of the top four teams in the world, come RWC time, is, dare I suggest, that we are not actually one of the top four rugby teams in the world. Munster continously offering club spots to bokke players isn't going to help that any in the long run either.

its extremely petty and childish and if you cant see why then there isnt much hope for you.
The comment about schools rugby is completely true though. 1000 odd players to have played for Ireland and how many have come from a tiny percentage of schools which are fer paying and therefore out of reach of vast majority of people in the country.

awec

Just heard Phillip Browne on the radio talking about the potential of more players leaving here for abroad in future due to money issues. Seems to be suggesting that the market for players is about to change significantly.

Perhaps the days of players earning enough to set them up for life are a thing of the past for now, and guys earning 500/600k a year may enjoy it while they can.

I think I also heard him say that the government should ensure they support sports. Fair enough but not a cent of taxpayer money should go toward propping up player or coaches salaries.

thomond2006

awec wrote: »

Just heard Phillip Browne on the radio talking about the potential of more players leaving here for abroad in future due to money issues. Seems to be suggesting that the market for players is about to change significantly.

Perhaps the days of players earning enough to set them up for life are a thing of the past for now, and guys earning 500/600k a year may enjoy it while they can.

I think I also heard him say that the government should ensure they support sports. Fair enough but not a cent of taxpayer money should go toward propping up player or coaches salaries.

Taxpayer money is already going towards these salaries through the tax rebates. In a small market we need those subsidies otherwise our provinces* would look a lot more like the Welsh regions. Private money has also been used to support training centres and certain salaries.

*I'm not sure what subsidies Ulster do or do not get.

As for the rugby market, GB and France will surely be quite badly impacted as well. France has also tightened its French produced (JIFF) quotas** over the years. The SH seem to only be able to hold on to their top internationals. Some of the quoted salaries for top names in the Japanese Top League have been absurd over the years but that kind of long distance move won't be for everyone.

** For 2020/21
Maximum of 14 non-JIFF players are allowed in the Top14 squad.
An average of 16 JIFF players must be played in a 23 throughout the Top14 season.

That increases to 13 and 17 respectively for 2021/22.

aloooof

Buer wrote: »

So bloody what?!

Don’t shut up, Buer!

Richie_Rich89

Leinster's apparent depth is so good because they have a coach whose training methods are perfect for getting wider squad members up to speed quickly so they can slot in seamlessly in the league. There have been numerous articles quoting Lancaster detailing how he tries to involve the whole squad - even if they're only first year academy players - in everything.

Sub in a different head coach with less good methods for developing players and you could have the best schools system and academy set up in the world and it wouldn't be apparent. Matt O'Connor didn't pick young backs if at all possible. Jimmy Gopperth was ill one night and he still started and Marsh was left on the bench for the whole game iirc.

Buer

aloooof wrote: »

Don’t shut up, Buer!

I hereby take a vow of silence.

Shefwedfan

awec wrote: »

Just heard Phillip Browne on the radio talking about the potential of more players leaving here for abroad in future due to money issues. Seems to be suggesting that the market for players is about to change significantly.

Perhaps the days of players earning enough to set them up for life are a thing of the past for now, and guys earning 500/600k a year may enjoy it while they can.

I think I also heard him say that the government should ensure they support sports. Fair enough but not a cent of taxpayer money should go toward propping up player or coaches salaries.

This is just them looking for public opinion before they ask for money. It was on news other night they will lose 20 mil

I guess they are looking at FAI mess and saying why dont we get some of that. Maybe a low interest loan but nothing else to be honest. Any money going to rte should go that direction instead, rugby better entertainment

Shefwedfan

Richie_Rich89 wrote: »

Leinster's apparent depth is so good because they have a coach whose training methods are perfect for getting wider squad members up to speed quickly so they can slot in seamlessly in the league. There have been numerous articles quoting Lancaster detailing how he tries to involve the whole squad - even if they're only first year academy players - in everything.

Sub in a different head coach with less good methods for developing players and you could have the best schools system and academy set up in the world and it wouldn't be apparent. Matt O'Connor didn't pick young backs if at all possible. Jimmy Gopperth was ill one night and he still started and Marsh was left on the bench for the whole game iirc.

What does that mean?

Eod100

Speaking of moves to Japan, looks like Hadleigh Parkes and George Kruis both moving there

https://twitter.com/FreemanrugbyJPN/status/1264673476826152960

b.gud

thomond2006 wrote: »

12 appearances in his first season in the seniors while turning 21 last month is plenty.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kieran_Marmion

In his first season with Connacht, Marmion started all 22 league games and all 6 Heineken Cup games

Kieran Marmion has a different notion

aloooof

b.gud wrote: »

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kieran_Marmion

Kieran Marmion has a different notion

He wasn't behind the first choice Irish 9 at the time, tho.

Richie_Rich89

Shefwedfan wrote: »

What does that mean?

I mean if there was a different coach than Lancaster there the depth wouldn't look as good. Even Schmidt, who got superior results as a coach at international level, wasn't quite as good for me at developing the whole squad up to the level where they could slot in and perform straight away.

b.gud

aloooof wrote: »

He wasn't behind the first choice Irish 9 at the time, tho.

I was hoping that the winking face would be sufficient and people would get that my post was tongue in cheek but I forgot that this is the Irish team thread during a time of no rugby. So to be clear I actually agreed with Thomands post and no comparison was intended, my comment was purely tongue in cheek. If Connacht had had other options fit and performing at the time then Marmion wouldn't have started all those game. Now is everyone happy?

ps Sexton is better than Rog

aloooof

b.gud wrote: »

I was hoping that the winking face would be sufficient and people would get that my post was tongue in cheek but I forgot that this is the Irish team thread during a time of no rugby. So to be clear I actually agreed with Thomands post and no comparison was intended, my comment was purely tongue in cheek. If Connacht had had other options fit and performing at the time then Marmion wouldn't have started all those game. Now is everyone happy?

ps Sexton is better than Rog

Fair point, apologies.

Richie_Rich89

For a draft to work you'd probably need the following to happen

- up first year academy salaries from 8,000 euro to 20,000-100,000 euros depending on where you got picked
- do away with sub academies and all underage inter-provincial games and squads
- have a competition equivalent to college competition in american football for players to play in after leaving school

Richie_Rich89

Ireland backline when Lowe qualifies?

9. Conor Murray
10. Jonathan Sexton
11. James Lowe
12. Bundee Aki/Robbie Henshaw
13. Garry Ringrose
14. Andrew Conway
15. Jacob Stockdale

21. John Cooney
22. Ross Byrne/Ciarán Frawley/Harry Byrne
23. Jordan Larmour

not considered due to lack of durability: Joey Carbery, Will Addison

Think I'd personally prefer Baloucoune on the right wing instead of Conway. He's a real smart defender, which is invaluable out on the right edge. Conway and Earls are fine defensively, but not on Baloucoune's level in terms of making really good reads and shutting down attacks.

The options at 12 are a bit uninspiring. I't be great to see Leinster put some effort into developing Conor O'Brien properly. Now there's a guy with the tools to play 12.

Think Earls is kind of winding down at this level.