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Child Item

Deferred State Exams 2020 [SEE MOD NOTE POST #1]

political analyst

I'm aware that the new LC timetable will be published this June - public health permitting.

Regarding the usual schedule, why doesn't the State Exams Commission have the exams of both papers each in English, Irish and Maths in the Leaving and Junior Cert exams take place on the first 3 days of the exam period so that students will have the exams in the main subjects over with by the end of Day 3?

After all, the sooner the exams are over and done with, the better - right?!

MOD NOTE I'm setting up this thread as the one stop shop for all discusion about the state exams, preparing for these exams and the format this may take. Discussion can also take place about Mat leave contracts and factual information regarding these.
There will be a warning for anyone who:
a) moans about teachers holidays
b) moans about teachers pay
c) moans for the sake of moaning
D) this is NOT a discussion about school closures, that thread ran its course and this is not a replacement.
Usual forum rules also apply.

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rainbowtrout

mtoutlemonde wrote: »

Maybe they will pay us? Read above that the school can employ an exam secretary.

Nope. An exam aide is employed every year, they are the person who sorts out rooms and special centres and CD players etc each day during the exams, and deals with any last minute changes and general issues that arise over the three weeks.

Treppen

TheValeyard wrote: »

They've been temporarily occupied somewhere else....

I think we should set up a support fund for TheValeyard who's keeping em busy elsewhere.:D

mtoutlemonde

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Nope. An exam aide is employed every year, they are the person who sorts out rooms and special centres and CD players etc each day during the exams, and deals with any last minute changes and general issues that arise over the three weeks.

I'm well aware what an exam aide is. What will they be doing this year?

rainbowtrout

mtoutlemonde wrote: »

I'm well aware what an exam aide is. What will they be doing this year?

Well why would you think that because an exam secretary is employed that we would get paid?

TheValeyard

Treppen wrote: »

I think we should set up a support fund for TheValeyard who's keeping em busy elsewhere.:D

Ah now, there are a few users in here who have done a lot more defence of teachers than I in here.

Bobtheman

So no news yet?
Unless, it's strictly school results we are in Booker prize territory.
Though, I know some teachers have corrected at LC levels and kept copious notes on their students but what of the rest of us? The lumpenproletariat?!

mtoutlemonde

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Well why would you think that because an exam secretary is employed that we would get paid?

You said we would be working into June - which we will be. I said we might be paid for it .... which we won't - it was intended as a joke..

History Queen

A friend of mine is going on maternity leave on next week... she just messaged me wanting to know what I thought about who would grade her classes? I can't figure out what might hapen. Her principal doesn't know and she's awaiting a call back from the union. But has anyone any ideas? There won't be a sub.

Edited to say: she's not expecting me to come up with answers, she was just putting it to me to get my opinion. I thought people here might have ideas.

6am7f9zxrsjvnb

History Queen wrote: »

A friend of mine is going on maternity leave on next week... she just messaged me wanting to know what I thought about who would grade her classes? I can't figure out what might hapen. Her principal doesn't know and she's awaiting a call back from the union. But has anyone any ideas? There won't be a sub.

Edited to say: she's not expecting me to come up with answers, she was just putting it to me to get my opinion. I thought people here might have ideas.

Anti - teacher vitriol in the media and on social media is a source o of real irritation to me, but this is the sort of nonsense that gives our critics fueL

If the guidelines can be implemented successfully over the next fortnight and she is physically well, surely she would be extremely eager to do it herself?

I don’t know about others, but I’m hoping 3-4 hours work will suffice in ranking/grading my class once I’ve applied the imminent recommendations.

km79

This is excellent from the INTO
Proactive . Addresses so many issues like childcare, vulnerable teachers , not being able to remote teach and physically teach at the same time !!!!
God knows when the asti will get around to it

https://www.into.ie/app/uploads/2020/05/Key-Issues-COVID-19_Web.pdf

History Queen

Nalani Hissing Appetizer wrote: »

Anti - teacher vitriol in the media and on social media is a source o of real irritation to me, but this is the sort of nonsense that gives our critics fueL

If the guidelines can be implemented successfully over the next fortnight and she is physically well, surely she would be extremely eager to do it herself?

I don’t know about others, but I’m hoping 3-4 hours work will suffice in ranking/grading my class once I’ve applied the imminent recommendations.

Sorry I should have been clear. She's actually due soon. She's not at all unwilling but is afraid she may not actually be able. But she'll possibly be in hospital. She's due the week after we finish and is a high risk pregnancy. She's afraid she won't be able to meet the deadline as it seems they want a quick turnaround and can't start work now as has no guidance.

She also is afraid of legal repercussions. I wanted to help out with a school show when on maternity leave before and wasn't allowed (although i think the issue with me was physically being on site). If someone was on longterm sick leave etc. they may not be able to do the work. I just thought her case brought up interesting issues for discussion. It didn't occur to me that people would expect teachers to work from hospitals.

km79

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/leaving-cert-students-must-opt-in-to-receive-calculated-grades-1.4258636?mode=amp

Absolutely nothing seems to have changed
Homework records etc still there
Not sure what the delay was

I do find it ironic that now “under the terms of their contracts teacher are expected “ to work a few days past the end of school . As we always did
And have no problem doing so to facilitate this process either
However
The terms of our contract meant nothing under the original proposal
And under whatever crazy proposal is concocted for September
“An extended school week” is being proposed by the IPPN apparently ......with all croke park hours still to be fulfilled no doubt
Dreading it !

km79

http://twitter.com/gavreilly/status/1263226175083642880

RealJohn

Well, I could use the extra pay, after losing out on my marking money.

Treppen

km79 wrote: »

http://twitter.com/gavreilly/status/1263226175083642880

1. What is his "accepted evidence of regression"?

2. Told ya , they're stoking up the 3 months holidays brigade to create a smokescreen.

Why did he say DEIS + special schools but not others?
Simple... Divide and conquer

Same as it ever was.

If they can swing it they'll treat ETBs and Voluntary differently to bring in the TUI Vs ASTI

Then for some icing on the cake split concessions between senior and new entrants.

Never let a good crisis go to waste.

joebloggs32

km79 wrote: »

This is excellent from the INTO
Proactive . Addresses so many issues like childcare, vulnerable teachers , not being able to remote teach and physically teach at the same time !!!!
God knows when the asti will get around to it

https://www.into.ie/app/uploads/2020/05/Key-Issues-COVID-19_Web.pdf

The INTO have not had to deal with the major headaches caused by state exsms. They have had a couple of months now to concentrate their minds on how the day to day stuff will be managed upon return.

mirrorwall14

Fell asleep with the toddler with build up of sleep debt and just woke to this farce. How in the name of God could the LC not go ahead if we are opening special and Deis schools in June?! WTAF. I’m so annoyed. Dealing with this absolute rubbish of predictive grading, with guidelines that took until tomorrow to come out and that are now supposedly the same as what they published the day they bloody cancelled?

Omg I am so frustrated. Who is running the DES? Because they don’t seem to be able to do anything properly at all. It has been one badly coordinated decision after the other, seemingly designed to make life as hard as possible for those on the ground. Postponing the JC In the middle of Easter on a Friday when we had just got the kids on side but calling it outright a cancellation meaning that parents and students thought it was over. Cancelling the LC for what honestly seems to have just been confirmed to be pandering to the media and money saving issues because if Special schools can open (our most vulnerable students) then there is no way the LC couldn’t have been arranged. Having us work our absolute backside off teaching remotely but then subtly rephrasing it so that what we’ve done isn’t counted as teaching. Absolutely no guidance in relation to reopening yet. And EVERYTHING being in the media before we even bloody informed. They are like a leaky sieve. No one could be that badly coordinated. So the only conclusion is they haven’t the slightest bit of respect and are doing it on purpose to gauge reactions

I am so done with it all.

eastie17

For whatever its worth, from a parent of an LC student, I absolutely feel for the teachers and the students and think all sides who actually had "skin in the game" were completely let down by the Government, the DES and most critically your unions to appease people who this had nothing to do with.
It would be funny if it wasn't going to have such a detrimental impact on so many peoples lives.

Right from the beginning the DES have announced plans and then after announcing have frantically scrambled to see if they could implement the plan they just announced. Farcical.
I do think a lot of the blame has to lie with teachers unions though, they seem to have been completely passive on this and if at the very least had come out and said the best result for all is for the exams to go ahead and lets see how we can do it then you wouldn't have had a case that it was ONLY the government saying that we need to go ahead with the LC. Once the JC was cancelled it was completely possible to hold the exam with the right precautions. People have been going into enclosed spaces at work all during this time

jimmytwotimes 2013

eastie17 wrote: »

I do think a lot of the blame has to lie with teachers unions though, they seem to have been completely passive on this and if at the very least had come out and said the best result for all is for the exams to go ahead and lets see how we can do it then you wouldn't have had a case that it was ONLY the government saying that we need to go ahead with the LC. Once the JC was cancelled it was completely possible to hold the exam with the right precautions. People have been going into enclosed spaces at work all during this time

The teacher unions backed the plan for July classes and the LC in late July/August. I don't see how they are to blame.

Public health advice led the Minister to cancel the LC. The Unions couldn't do much about that.

Treppen

eastie17 wrote: »

For whatever its worth, from a parent of an LC student, I absolutely feel for the teachers and the students and think all sides who actually had "skin in the game" were completely let down by the Government, the DES and most critically your unions to appease people who this had nothing to do with.
It would be funny if it wasn't going to have such a detrimental impact on so many peoples lives.

Right from the beginning the DES have announced plans and then after announcing have frantically scrambled to see if they could implement the plan they just announced. Farcical.
I do think a lot of the blame has to lie with teachers unions though, they seem to have been completely passive on this and if at the very least had come out and said the best result for all is for the exams to go ahead and lets see how we can do it then you wouldn't have had a case that it was ONLY the government saying that we need to go ahead with the LC. Once the JC was cancelled it was completely possible to hold the exam with the right precautions. People have been going into enclosed spaces at work all during this time

As regards apportioning blame for the unions. The flip flop was taken by the government over a weekend after the Joe Duffy brigade built up steam looking for certainty and detailed plans for 3 months time.

You may have noticed most of the stories in the media were from certain vocal students promoting predicted grades + the ISSU unofficial 'survey' to cancel. + Dr. Ciara o Kelly et al who said all students should apply for courses to UK just to force predictive grades on teachers (who now wants primary schools open in 2 weeks btw!).

Before the flip flop unions were 100% behind the August exams (but seeking clarity on issue). Nearly all of the teachers on here and in my school were just taking a deep breath and accepting that it was going ahead.

Be clear, it was the government that pulled the plug after the weekend special sitting.
Zero influence from unions in that decision.

Now teachers are getting on with the next sham, as is our wont... But watch for the usual blame being heaped on again.

km79

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/primary-schools-unlikely-to-reopen-in-june-as-union-sees-mammoth-task-in-september-1.4259070?mode=amp

Why is this a conversation again ?
As a primary school parent I understood and have accepted the school year is over
Why are politicians intent on causing stress and confusion
The roadmap is fairly clear !

r93kaey5p2izun

eastie17 wrote: »

I do think a lot of the blame has to lie with teachers unions though, they seem to have been completely passive on this and if at the very least had come out and said the best result for all is for the exams to go ahead and lets see how we can do it then you wouldn't have had a case that it was ONLY the government saying that we need to go ahead with the LC. Once the JC was cancelled it was completely possible to hold the exam with the right precautions.

You posted the same nonsense a week ago. Nothing has changed since then, when it was clarified for you that in fact, both post primary teaching unions had stated that their preference was for the LC exams to go ahead, and both accepted the plan to provide two weeks face to face teaching in July in advance of the exams. Your above interpretation of reality is a little bizarre tbh.

jimmytwotimes 2013

km79 wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/primary-schools-unlikely-to-reopen-in-june-as-union-sees-mammoth-task-in-september-1.4259070?mode=amp

Why is this a conversation again ?
As a primary school parent I understood and have accepted the school year is over
Why are politicians intent on causing stress and confusion
The roadmap is fairly clear !

The Irish Times has seen it can influence gov policy and is giving it another go I'd say.

eastie17

Chaya Fresh Shoehorn wrote: »

You posted the same nonsense a week ago. Nothing has changed since then, when it was clarified for you that in fact, both post primary teaching unions had stated that their preference was for the LC exams to go ahead, and both accepted the plan to provide two weeks face to face teaching in July in advance of the exams. Your above interpretation of reality is a little bizarre tbh.

There is what they might have said, and what was heard in the court of public opinion which is where this was, wrongly, imho, decided.
If they were standing behind it, they weren't that vocal about it and that is where I have the issue. Surely a strong antidote to all of the nonsense being put out there would have been to consistently have teachers union reps on the other side of the argument saying they do believe they can go ahead.
Yes, it was Government decision, and the buck stops with them but they could have done with more voices on the "we can do it" side and the unions would have been a key one.

AND isnt it the unions job to understand what exactly they are agreeing to on behalf of their members? The details from teachers in this discussion and everything else written about it just show that this at best is a half arsed plan that is causing a lot of teachers a huge amount of stress, and is a gift that is going to keep on giving well into next years term and probably beyond. How could they agree to something that clearly didnt exist as a plan?
The unions seemed to just say "do the exam, dont do the exam, we'll do whatever ye want" They dont seem to have strong views on anything - if you are a union member are you ok with that? Whats the point of them then?

The only saving grace is that most of the students, both the ones that wanted this and those that didn't, haven't really realised what a ****show this is likely to end up being. Because for some of them that level of stress is going to be 10 times worse than whatever level there was before when the "will we wont we" conversations were going on.

The only reason it might not end up a ****show is if teachers go above and beyond to represent their students to ensure they get a fair deal. That scenario shouldn't have been allowed to happen

ngunners

eastie17 wrote: »

There is what they might have said, and what was heard in the court of public opinion which is where this was, wrongly, imho, decided.
If they were standing behind it, they weren't that vocal about it and that is where I have the issue. Surely a strong antidote to all of the nonsense being put out there would have been to consistently have teachers union reps on the other side of the argument saying they do believe they can go ahead.
Yes, it was Government decision, and the buck stops with them but they could have done with more voices on the "we can do it" side and the unions would have been a key one.

AND isnt it the unions job to understand what exactly they are agreeing to on behalf of their members? The details from teachers in this discussion and everything else written about it just show that this at best is a half arsed plan that is causing a lot of teachers a huge amount of stress, and is a gift that is going to keep on giving well into next years term and probably beyond. How could they agree to something that clearly didnt exist as a plan?
The unions seemed to just say "do the exam, dont do the exam, we'll do whatever ye want" They dont seem to have strong views on anything - if you are a union member are you ok with that? Whats the point of them then?

The only saving grace is that most of the students, both the ones that wanted this and those that didn't, haven't really realised what a ****show this is likely to end up being. Because for some of them that level of stress is going to be 10 times worse than whatever level there was before when the "will we wont we" conversations were going on.

The only reason it might not end up a ****show is if teachers go above and beyond to represent their students to ensure they get a fair deal. That scenario shouldn't have been allowed to happen

Not sure what you mean by this to be honest?

r93kaey5p2izun

eastie17 wrote:

There is what they might have said, and what was heard in the court of public opinion which is where this was, wrongly, imho, decided.
If they were standing behind it, they weren't that vocal about it and that is where I have the issue. Surely a strong antidote to all of the nonsense being put out there would have been to consistently have teachers union reps on the other side of the argument saying they do believe they can go ahead.

But that is what happened. If you look on the dedicated coronavirus update page on the TUI website, you will see a record of the many statements and interviews given in support for the LC exams. Unfortunately the way our biased media choose to represent things is an issue - many media "personalities" supported cancellation, and that drove the angle taken by all leading newspapers and broadcasters. In particular Ciara Kelly has behaved disgracefully. I would suggest also that the curse of social media algorithms that feed you what you agree with may also have played a role here - the alternative viewpoint isn't pushed on your feed. This is a frequent issue with the massive bias on education issues presented by our main media outlets. I see that there is almost no balanced or fair or even factually representative coverage of education issues in our media (Emma O'Kelly is the only person who even tries to be balanced) and it leaves me with zero confidence in reporting on other issues I'm less informed on myself.

rainbowtrout

eastie17 wrote: »

There is what they might have said, and what was heard in the court of public opinion which is where this was, wrongly, imho, decided.
If they were standing behind it, they weren't that vocal about it and that is where I have the issue. Surely a strong antidote to all of the nonsense being put out there would have been to consistently have teachers union reps on the other side of the argument saying they do believe they can go ahead.
Yes, it was Government decision, and the buck stops with them but they could have done with more voices on the "we can do it" side and the unions would have been a key one.

Hold on now a second. Teacher unions were consistent about this from the start. Teachers wanted the exams to go ahead. Teachers knew and stated consistently that predicted grades were unfair and basically a shit show. Our national media decided to give blanket coverage to 'cancel the LC', 'students are far too stressed', 'predicted grades must happen' for weeks on end. No other voice was heard in the media. Remember national newspapers choose what they want to print.

The minute the LC was cancelled they started printing articles from students who wanted the LC to go ahead. Funny they didn't print any of them for the weeks leading up to that point.

They didn't need more voices on the we can do it side. We were already there, they just chose to ignore those voices.

eastie17 wrote: »

AND isnt it the unions job to understand what exactly they are agreeing to on behalf of their members? The details from teachers in this discussion and everything else written about it just show that this at best is a half arsed plan that is causing a lot of teachers a huge amount of stress, and is a gift that is going to keep on giving well into next years term and probably beyond. How could they agree to something that clearly didnt exist as a plan?
The unions seemed to just say "do the exam, dont do the exam, we'll do whatever ye want" They dont seem to have strong views on anything - if you are a union member are you ok with that? Whats the point of them then?

The union agreed that we would work July. You didn't see teachers protesting about working July even though we've never done it before. I'm sure the media were only waiting to vilify us if we objected. The union agreed to a plan which meant predicted grading would be finished by the end of May. They can only agree to the plan outlined to them by the DES. We're all ready to go. Two weeks later we are getting guidelines, and guess what we are learning what are in those guidelines from the national newspapers yet again.

The DES have behaved disgracefully throughout this whole debacle. Nowhere else do employees learn of their working conditions through the national newspapers, and have every aspect of them picked over by journalists who have been given the inside track ahead of teachers who will actually have to do the work. You have tweets like the one posted earlier by Gavin O'Reilly stoking up anti teacher sentiment on things we have had no say in. This isn't about a roadmap for re-opening like the rest of the plan, this is the kind of ****e you see coming up to the budget - put something in the media and see how the public react before you decide if you'll go ahead with it or not. And it would seem that the court of public opinion are getting to decide our working conditions and the outcomes for students, without any thought for the two main groups that it directly affects.

eastie17 wrote: »

The only saving grace is that most of the students, both the ones that wanted this and those that didn't, haven't really realised what a ****show this is likely to end up being. Because for some of them that level of stress is going to be 10 times worse than whatever level there was before when the "will we wont we" conversations were going on.

The only reason it might not end up a ****show is if teachers go above and beyond to represent their students to ensure they get a fair deal. That scenario shouldn't have been allowed to happen

What is this supposed to mean? What does going above and beyond entail? Because at this stage we've been asked to grade our students in line with guidelines which as of 1pm today, haven't been released yet. Once I've graded my students I'm not sure there's anything left for me to do.

ngunners wrote: »

Not sure what you mean by this to be honest?

Me either.

km79

What is the hold up......

shesty

km79 wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/primary-schools-unlikely-to-reopen-in-june-as-union-sees-mammoth-task-in-september-1.4259070?mode=amp

Why is this a conversation again ?
As a primary school parent I understood and have accepted the school year is over
Why are politicians intent on causing stress and confusion
The roadmap is fairly clear !

I also feel like this

Can all parties dealing with children, childcare, schools and education please just close their mouths for maybe 3-4 weeks and put their energies into solving the bl$%ted problem of getting the creches and schools reopened in a decent timeframe, instead of making random contradictory statements and arguing over who is more right.Please.

jimmytwotimes 2013

km79 wrote: »

What is the hold up......

Agree, gathered all my LC data a week ago, frustrating