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How will schools be able to go back in September?

shoppergal

Just wondering if anyone can give any insight into how schools could safely re-open in September?

Everyone I'm talking to is saying they won't be back until September but in my head I'm wondering how they'll re-open even in September? The virus will still be there with a vaccine still months away at that stage.

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MerlinSouthDub

khalessi wrote: »

Well I dont take holidays abroad I holiday in Ireland and spend them doing cpd courses, I cant go abroad for various reasons though I would love to.

Abroad or not, why couldn't your holidays start one month earlier and finish one month earlier? It seems like a very small ask of teachers in the current environment.

downthemiddle

kandr10 wrote: »

It actually isn’t the norm at the moment. There is no panel of subs. There was about 13 years ago but literally those lists are empty and a sub cannot be found for love nor money. We had a several temporary positions that couldn’t be filled that arose because of retirements within the school and maternity. The learning support team had to step in and take turns subbing in these classes, which is grossly unfair to everyone involved - the teachers, the class of kids waiting on a teacher, the kids who are entitled to learning support. Several people have mentioned this to you already on the thread. I’m not sure why you don’t believe us?

She's busy reading a 50 page report at the moment looking for a straw to grasp.

wirelessdude01

Zahir Bitter Cellist wrote: »

I think it's likely to do with the terms being offered to subs and temps. If they find something better or more permanent then they are going to go with that position.

Yes there should be a panel of subs available for some occasions but it's shouldn't be the norm for entry level teachers (which it has become for a lot of them).

If there were a large number of permanent teaching positions made available tomorrow then there would not be a major issue filling them because obviously they are more desirable.

The INTO have been fighting to get sub panels introduced for a number of years. There was a small trial ongoing this year or planned for next year. Can't remember which.

As regards permanent positions. I personally know of at least three primary schools within the greater Dublin region that had to re-advertise positions twice if not three times last summer. People either no applying or accepting and then turning them down last minute for 'lesser' positions closer to home as that's where they want to be. Maternity positions being left unfilled is more common than it should be. People just couldn't afford to live in Dublin due to the cost of living. You have to ask why so many retired teachers are practically being begged to sub as young teachers at primary level.just weren't/aren't there. I know of a few who lied about being away on holidays as they just want to enjoy their retirement and don't want to be back in the classroom. Lots of favours are pulled in and legs pulled to get them to fill in for days here and there.

kandr10

Zahir Bitter Cellist wrote: »

I think it's likely to do with the terms being offered to subs and temps. If they find something better or more permanent then they are going to go with that position.

Yes there should be a panel of subs available for some occasions but it's shouldn't be the norm for entry level teachers (which it has become for a lot of them).

If there were a large number of permanent teaching positions made available tomorrow then there would not be a major issue filling them because obviously they are more desirable.

It actually isn’t the norm at the moment. There is no panel of subs. There was about 13 years ago but literally those lists are empty and a sub cannot be found for love nor money. We had a several temporary positions that couldn’t be filled that arose because of retirements within the school and maternity. The learning support team had to step in and take turns subbing in these classes, which is grossly unfair to everyone involved - the teachers, the class of kids waiting on a teacher, the kids who are entitled to learning support. Several people have mentioned this to you already on the thread. I’m not sure why you don’t believe us?

khalessi

MerlinSouthDub wrote: »

I wouldn't be rushing to open the schools in June, but why not end the school year now and reopen them in August. So, shift the school holidays by one month. It would mean schools could start getting back earlier.

It shouldn't inconvenience teachers as we can't travel abroad anyway.

Well I dont take holidays abroad I holiday in Ireland and spend them doing cpd courses, I cant go abroad for various reasons though I would love to.

khalessi

Zahir Bitter Cellist wrote: »

You think that if a teacher decides to leave their post that there won't be someone eager waiting to fill it immediately?

My point is that there would be no shortage of available teachers right now if they were needed.

Make progress or make excuses.

Your point is wrong though, there are posts throughout the country which are not being filled as there are no teachers available. We had 4 vacancies in my school 2 years ago we didnt get filled for months as there was no one to fill them.

MerlinSouthDub

I wouldn't be rushing to open the schools in June, but why not end the school year now and reopen them in August. So, shift the school holidays by one month. It would mean schools could start getting back earlier.

It shouldn't inconvenience teachers as we can't travel abroad anyway.

khalessi

Zahir Bitter Cellist wrote: »

As you said to another poster earlier does adding a smiley face make a veiled (not veiled) insult OK?

there was no smiley on the original joke for that reason and you still toolk offense.

It is interesting how there one rule for you and your cronies to post and another for the rest of us.

ldy4mxonucwsq6

khalessi wrote: »

Its a joke, my god did you get lobotomised:D
Sheesh humour is allowed

As you said to another poster earlier does adding a smiley face make a veiled (not veiled) insult OK?

wirelessdude01

jrosen wrote: »

Can I ask why when a school needs a teacher they hire a temp?
My child had a temp last year who then left because he was offered a perm position at another school. Then they hired another temp.

Secondary schools have a huge shortage. Its been a big issue at our secondary school. My own was weeks without a home Ec teacher and about 3 weeks without an english teacher. Lots of free periods too when the teachers had commitment with exam students.

Any number of reasons, career break, secondment, parental leave, continually extended sick leave could be reasons.

downthemiddle

Zahir Bitter Cellist wrote: »

You think that if a teacher decides to leave their post that there won't be someone eager waiting to fill it immediately?

My point is that there would be no shortage of available teachers right now if they were needed.

Make progress or make excuses.

I don't think. I know from first hand experience what the situation is. I hate to burst your bubble but you don't have a point.
I'll repeat my question,it is quite a simple one. Where in the report does it project a huge pool of teachers for 2021?

khalessi

Zahir Bitter Cellist wrote: »

I think it's likely to do with the terms being offered to subs and temps. If they find something better or more permanent then they are going to go with that position.

Yes there should be a panel of subs available for some occasions but it's shouldn't be the norm for entry level teachers (which it has become for a lot of them).

If there were a large number of permanent teaching positions made available tomorrow then there would not be a major issue filling them because obviously they are more desirable.

There is panel of subs for primary school and there are still shortages

ldy4mxonucwsq6

jrosen wrote: »

Can I ask why when a school needs a teacher they hire a temp?
My child had a temp last year who then left because he was offered a perm position at another school. Then they hired another temp.

Secondary schools have a huge shortage. Its been a big issue at our secondary school. My own was weeks without a home Ec teacher and about 3 weeks without an english teacher. Lots of free periods too when the teachers had commitment with exam students.

I think it's likely to do with the terms being offered to subs and temps. If they find something better or more permanent then they are going to go with that position.

Yes there should be a panel of subs available for some occasions but it's shouldn't be the norm for entry level teachers (which it has become for a lot of them).

If there were a large number of permanent teaching positions made available tomorrow then there would not be a major issue filling them because obviously they are more desirable.

kandr10

jrosen wrote: »

Can I ask why when a school needs a teacher they hire a temp?
My child had a temp last year who then left because he was offered a perm position at another school. Then they hired another temp.

Secondary schools have a huge shortage. Its been a big issue at our secondary school. My own was weeks without a home Ec teacher and about 3 weeks without an english teacher. Lots of free periods too when the teachers had commitment with exam students.

It depends on the reason why the post opened up in the school. For example, if a teacher goes on career break, the person filling in would be a temp as it’s assumed that the original teacher would be back (as in other professions, I guess). Or if a teacher is job sharing in another school, same thing would apply. You can also have a situation where a temp teacher is working a few years in a school trying to build up to permanency and maybe the school is given an extra teacher due to increased numbers. In this case it would be a permanent position but if the temp who is there has not got their full service done as a temp they would most likely lose out on this position to an outsider.

khalessi

Zahir Bitter Cellist wrote: »

You're grasping a straws now, what are you talking about?

Its a joke, my god did you get lobotomised:D
Sheesh humour is allowed

khalessi

jrosen wrote: »

Can I ask why when a school needs a teacher they hire a temp?
My child had a temp last year who then left because he was offered a perm position at another school. Then they hired another temp.

Secondary schools have a huge shortage. Its been a big issue at our secondary school. My own was weeks without a home Ec teacher and about 3 weeks without an english teacher. Lots of free periods too when the teachers had commitment with exam students.

Well it depends on the roll offered, some will be a temp position or a fixed term but they are hard to fill so if they can, primary schools will get a sub until the position if filled properly, but subs are like hens teeth too these days. We had a vacancy advertised since the holidays last year and only filled it in February. 4 or 5 years ago I applied for a Masters in Special Ed and havent been able to do it as we cant get cover for my days off, so the shortages are going on at least that long.

ldy4mxonucwsq6

khalessi wrote: »

Its ok Fringe rewrote it because they were wrong

You're grasping a straws now, what are you talking about?

ldy4mxonucwsq6

downthemiddle wrote: »

https://www.education.ie/en/Publications/Education-Reports/developing-a-teacher-demand-and-supply-model-for-ireland-2020-2036.pdf

This report that projects a large surplus by 2036?

Unlike you, I've read the report from cover to cover and understand the implications of the report, however this is not a discussion about pupil teacher ratios.
Perhaps you can point out where it projects this huge pool of teachers for September 2021.

You think that if a teacher decides to leave their post that there won't be someone eager waiting to fill it immediately?

My point is that there would be no shortage of available teachers right now if they were needed.

Make progress or make excuses.

khalessi

downthemiddle wrote: »

https://www.education.ie/en/Publications/Education-Reports/developing-a-teacher-demand-and-supply-model-for-ireland-2020-2036.pdf

This report that projects a large surplus by 2036?

Unlike you, I've read the report from cover to cover and understand the implications of the report, however this is not a discussion about pupil teacher ratios.
Perhaps you can point out where it projects this huge pool of teachers for September 2021.

Its ok Fringe rewrote it because they were wrong

jrosen

Can I ask why when a school needs a teacher they hire a temp?
My child had a temp last year who then left because he was offered a perm position at another school. Then they hired another temp.

Secondary schools have a huge shortage. Its been a big issue at our secondary school. My own was weeks without a home Ec teacher and about 3 weeks without an english teacher. Lots of free periods too when the teachers had commitment with exam students.

downthemiddle

Zahir Bitter Cellist wrote: »

I have read it and what posters are saying here supports that there's too many teachers for the number of positions available.

Team that with the fact that very few will be emigrating in the next while and a lot abroad will have returned. We'll have a huge pool of qualified teachers available.

https://www.education.ie/en/Publications/Education-Reports/developing-a-teacher-demand-and-supply-model-for-ireland-2020-2036.pdf

This report that projects a large surplus by 2036?

Unlike you, I've read the report from cover to cover and understand the implications of the report, however this is not a discussion about pupil teacher ratios.
Perhaps you can point out where it projects this huge pool of teachers for September 2021.

kandr10

I love this thread.

In a way I’m hoping the guidelines aren’t released too soon cos I could do with another few months of this thread going round in circles. Every so often a sensible argument around the difficulties of reopening schools and people chip in making me feel I’m not going mad. Then someone jumps on and says they need to just open the schools up tomorrow to full capacity and see what happens cos the economy is grinding to a halt. Then we’re back to square one.

Lovely stuff.

khalessi

Zahir Bitter Cellist wrote: »

There was a big official report done on this by the Department of Education just late last year, predicting a huge excess of teachers.

Posters here have mentioned that some teachers are only getting a few hours work a week instead of full time posts, that sort of situation would indicate not enough positions for the number of qualified teachers currently.

I mentioned this and it is not becuase of an over abundance of teachers though I do expect you to disagree as you have such an intimate knowledge of the educaiton system in this country unlike the teachers who work in schools. It has to do with their subject choices for teaching in secondary schools and how the principals choose the teachers to cover subjects.

There has been a shortage of primary teachers for a number of years as we cannot get substitute teachers for long or short contracts or maternity leave cover and has proven a problem for at least 4 years.

daydorunrun

downthemiddle wrote: »

I'm an unqualified brain surgeon. Would you like me to perform a lobotomy on you?

Most ridiculous analogy winner 2020.

wirelessdude01

Zahir Bitter Cellist wrote: »

It's one possibility indicated in a submission that's been made to the Department of Education outlining plans to reopen schools in September.

Submitted by whom?

ldy4mxonucwsq6

downthemiddle wrote: »

Perhaps you should read the report again.

I have read it and what posters are saying here supports that there's too many teachers for the number of positions available.

Team that with the fact that very few will be emigrating in the next while and a lot abroad will have returned. We'll have a huge pool of qualified teachers available.

downthemiddle

Zahir Bitter Cellist wrote: »

There was a big official report done on this by the Department of Education just late last year, predicting a huge excess of teachers.

Posters here have mentioned that some teachers are only getting a few hours work a week instead of full time posts, that sort of situation would indicate not enough positions for the number of qualified teachers currently.

There are no jobs for hundreds of teaching graduates every year along with redeployment of surplus existing teachers too.

If the report is correct then it's good news for class sizes, that's if the infrastructure can keep up with the growth.

Of course the report was rubbished by the unions, but thats to be expected.

Perhaps you should read the report again.

Jim Root

Could we not do a few hours on a Saturday morning?

ldy4mxonucwsq6

selectamatic wrote: »

Certainly didn't appear to be an excess of unemployed primary teachers looking for work or graduates in the last few years.

There was a big official report done on this by the Department of Education just late last year, predicting a huge excess of teachers.

Posters here have mentioned that some teachers are only getting a few hours work a week instead of full time posts, that sort of situation would indicate not enough positions for the number of qualified teachers currently.

There are no jobs for hundreds of teaching graduates every year along with redeployment of surplus existing teachers too.

If the report is correct then it's good news for class sizes (which are naturally decreasing due to less students/population commencing primary now anyway), that's if the infrastructure can keep up with the growth.

Of course the report was rubbished by the unions, but thats to be expected.

downthemiddle

Dayo93 wrote: »

The point has been driven home here , unqualified teachers cannot teach children , so we cannot have mass home schooling , get the schools back open in September , the kids are the ones suffering here ...

You'll struggle to find a teacher anywhere in the country who would prefer what they are doing at the moment to direct contact with their students. Teachers want schools to reopen. However there are genuine concerns about how it can be done in a safe environment. School communities are complex. Rest assured, though, that principals are already exploring ways of maximising pupil numbers within current guidelines. The issue is nobody knows what the guidelines will be in September making planning more difficult.