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Public service pay cut?

[Deleted User]

Will, there be public service pay cuts and cuts to services themselves after COVID 19? interesting discussion on RTE 1 radio about this, on the other hand, the likes of David McWilliams take a different view on how we can pay for this.

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noodler

smelly sock wrote: »

How is it not? How does PMDS work?

Previous post refers where you exaggerated the performance aspect of PMDS.

You said you have three formal reviews with your staff via PMDS.

1) goal setting. That's usually just the previous years broad objectives copied and pasted. A genuine performance review?

2) mid year review. This amounts to a couple of sentences on the progress towards these.

3) end-year. The most substantive to be sure.

Given the number of poor performers is at least the same average as the private sector, it is clear that acceptable ratings of 98% mean managers don't really want the HR hassle of actually giving a proper, formal judgement of poor performers.

noodler

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

It is. It's very good, it's terrific, it might be the best system ever. It's so good it's been introduced in an Garda siochana as palf.

Personal opinions and rants aren't facts.

So, how does a high score in staff assessment mean the assessment system doesn't work? Only low scores and dismissals show a system to be effective? My comment stands.

Personal opinions and rants? I've been a public servant for Almost 8 years. I know exactly what I am talking about.

You have moved the goalposts.

First you claim PMDS is an effective tool for managing performance, when it is challenged (with evidence) you then state that performance isn't everything.

Try and stick to your guns.

thomasdylan

JJJackal wrote: »

It will also be interesting to see what happens if doctors and nurses who came home to help out are not kept on. Esp as without a vaccine there are likely to be peaks and troughs and these doctors and nurses will be needed again in the future (to come home from abroad to be on call for Ireland).

In my opinion there will be some rough industrial public sector talks and strikes when this is all over.

The majority of doctors coming back seem to have been planning on starting training schemes in July in Ireland anyway. They came back a few months early. A lot of them plan on doing a bit of travelling before starting schemes but that holidaymaking couldn't happen because of Covid-19 travel restrictions. Its good they did come back in case they were needed but the majority are fairly junior.

[Deleted User]

Why does everyone want to concentrate on a performance protocol when the real saving could be made if the layers of bureaucracy where worked on.

But they how to square the circle of greater accountability.

Sir Guy who smiles

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=

Birneybau wrote: »

The HSE is ridiculously top heavy salary-wise, it's a bloated fit for nothing bureaucratical organisation.

There should be more, better paid nurses and doctors, and less pencil pushers. Rid the HSE of most of the 'brain' trust and you'll have a more efficient entity, funding and work wise.

I'm not saying your wrong, but I hear a lot of people saying this, and what is it based on?

How many office workers and managers in the HES?
How many doctors, nurses, physios, radiologists?
How do we compare with other countries, especially those considered to have good health care?

I don't know. Do you?

And did you know before you decided there should be less "pencil pushers"? Or did you decide your opinion and look up the numbers afterwards?

[Deleted User]

BrianD3 wrote: »

He said he was in the public sector and that he didn't have appraisals in the 2000s. Unless I missed an earlier post, he didn't claim that this was across the board.

Snow Garden wrote:

I was 5.5 years in the public sector in 2000s and never had a single formal performance appraisal with my manager. I checked with a former colleague and he says it's still the case. And I got my increments every year.

He claims it's still the case when in fact, it's not. All areas now have them. They are mandatory. He's also gone at least 10 years. His opinion doesn't carry the same weight as a current staff member

[Deleted User]

noodler wrote: »

Personal opinions and rants? I've been a public servant for Almost 8 years. I know exactly what I am talking about.

You have moved the goalposts.

First you claim PMDS is an effective tool for managing performance, when it is challenged (with evidence) you then state that performance isn't everything.

Try and stick to your guns.

You really are taking rubbish. Your OPINION of the system is exactly that, your opinion. It's not fact.

I haven't claimed that performance isn't everything. Where did I do that? Quote me please. I said that YOU consider the lack of dismissals as proof the system doesn't work. Isn't that your stance? No accountability because very few dismissals?

[Deleted User]

noodler wrote: »

Personal opinions and rants? I've been a public servant for Almost 8 years. I know exactly what I am talking about.

You have moved the goalposts.

First you claim PMDS is an effective tool for managing performance, when it is challenged (with evidence) you then state that performance isn't everything.

Try and stick to your guns.

ParkRunner

Where performance is not up to scratch in the public sector over a period of time the first step is to go through a performance improvement plan and monitor performance a lot more closely while that is in place. If the employee doesn’t respond positively, sanctions up to dismissal follow.

The main difference I see with private sector is the private sector works more on short term renewable contracts which aren’t renewed if the person isn’t wanted or needed. In the public sector there is a higher proportion of permanent contracts so there’s a lot more work done to try improve performance before going down the difficult dismissal process.

seefin

Am in public sector for years . Feel that frontline workers should be paid more and the rest of us have pay cuts to make up for it. It sickens me that all public sector workers are grouped together, can't see why some parts can't be protected while the others who have job security , yet aren't frontline are targeted. I have colleagues who complain that they would get paid more in the private sector and I know they'll be up in arms if pay cuts.. yet they stay because the job security and conditions make it worthwhile. I'll be genuinely disgusted if our salaries aren't cut in the next year.

The_Brood

I mean again to point out - for a country which pays - comparative to the vast majority of other nations on earth - big sums of money to people who are not working (this is not about any judgments but just plain factual observation) to even consider starting to cut off money from people who actually are working, especially the lower earners which are most people - is mind-numbingly ridiculous.

smelly sock

seefin wrote: »

Am in public sector for years . Feel that frontline workers should be paid more and the rest of us have pay cuts to make up for it. It sickens me that all public sector workers are grouped together, can't see why some parts can't be protected while the others who have job security , yet aren't frontline are targeted. I have colleagues who complain that they would get paid more in the private sector and I know they'll be up in arms if pay cuts.. yet they stay because the job security and conditions make it worthwhile. I'll be genuinely disgusted if our salaries aren't cut in the next year.

Troll much?

khalessi

The_Brood wrote: »

I mean again to point out - for a country which pays - comparative to the vast majority of other nations on earth - big sums of money to people who are not working (this is not about any judgments but just plain factual observation) to even consider starting to cut off money from people who actually are working, especially the lower earners which are most people - is mind-numbingly ridiculous.

who isnt working do you mean the unemployed?

The_Brood

khalessi wrote: »

who isnt working do you mean the unemployed?

yes

[Deleted User]

mariaalice wrote: »

One of the big issues is the cost of doing everything in the public service and that is mostly caused by greater levels of accountability in the public services for example if I got a small bit of building work done in my house, a path or small wall I would get a price for a local get the work done the end.

In the public service, it gets three quotes, tax compliant cert, public liability insurance, etc. A public servant of some sort has to check the quotes, the tax cert, insurance, etc all for a very small job.

The general public wants accountability but all that makes everything more expensive.

Thats not how it happens. The vendor is asked to provide this info when they first do business with the PS. They then must provide a TCC at a certain point each year. They don't go through this process every time they provide goods or a service.

Quotes/tenders are sought when goods or services above a certain price are required.

A lot of times a contract will already be negotiated and tendered for. Tge company will be checked for tax compliance and set up for payment. Its just a matter of ordering goods from them then.

thenightman

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

You do a very important job, but at this moment in time a shelf stacker in Aldi is more valuable. Pick your battle when you have a chance of winning it

Lovely condescending reply. In the last 2 weeks in my job in a justice related department I've worked 12 unpaid hours due to urgent work and quadrupling work load due to other offices closing. Those 12 hours are gone, and I can't even add them to time in lieu towards a future day off as Flexi time has been eliminated.

I don't think the Aldi folk would countenance working such hours for free, but civil servants are expected to along with a two tier pay system. Now we are told to expect no more pay restoration (never mind increases!) and to like it by the likes of you because our jobs aren't important? You can respectfully get stuffed.

See how 'unimportant' our jobs are when your welfare isn't in your account, 999 calls go unanswered, Garda stations are full because prisoners can't be brought to court, your tax credit isn't processed, you can't get off emergency tax and hundreds of other 'unimportant' situations when staff strike.

smelly sock

thenightman wrote: »

Lovely condescending reply. In the last 2 weeks in my job in a justice related department I've worked 12 unpaid hours due to urgent work and quadrupling work load due to other offices closing. Those 12 hours are gone, and I can't even add them to time in lieu towards a future day off as Flexi time has been eliminated.

I don't think the Aldi folk would countenance working such hours for free, but civil servants are expected to along with a two tier pay system. Now we are told to expect no more pay restoration (never mind increases!) and to like it by the likes of you because our jobs aren't important? You can respectfully get stuffed.

See how 'unimportant' our jobs are when your welfare isn't in your account, 999 calls go unanswered, Garda stations are full because prisoners can't be brought to court, your tax credit isn't processed, you can't get off emergency tax and hundreds of other 'unimportant' situations when staff strike.

Stop working those hours. Seriously.

seefin

smelly sock wrote: »

Troll much?

Nope, am genuine. Admittedly I'm possibly the only public sector worker with such a view. In 2008 recession , I was a lone voice agreeing with pay cuts.

Mr Meanor

seefin wrote: »

Nope, am genuine. Admittedly I'm possibly the only public sector worker with such a view. In 2008 recession , I was a lone voice agreeing with pay cuts.

Nobody but nobody should ever look for a pay cut, public or private.
It's people like you that have helped cause the polarisation of wealth from the very top to the bottom.
Lone voice? more like thoughts of insecurity. Get a grip!

addaword

Mr Meanor wrote: »

Nobody but nobody should ever look for a pay cut, public or private.
!

Rubbish. I know lots of public servants like lecturers in third level who privately admit they were way overpaid when the last downturn happened in 2007, having had pay increases of a whopping 59% between 2001 and 2006.

smelly sock

seefin wrote: »

Nope, am genuine. Admittedly I'm possibly the only public sector worker with such a view. In 2008 recession , I was a lone voice agreeing with pay cuts.

You're obviously in a position financially where you probably dont even need to work.

Mr Meanor

addaword wrote: »

Rubbish. I know lots of public servants like lecturers in third level who privately admit they were way overpaid when the last downturn happened in 2007, having had pay increases of a whopping 59% between 2001 and 2006.

A lot of people in Ireland were underpaid for their skill levels both in the Private industry and Public service from the late nineties till 2008 when everything went pear shaped.

There're are a lot of Public servants who have lucked out but far many more are in the same lucky position in the private sector, god do I know! but the majority both public and private are worth their wages and more.

Anyway again people like you are missing the point. No Pay-cuts, no Pay stagnation, it only benefits the top tiers that's why we now have so many multi-Billionaires. We as a society are very productive but our renumeration in real terms is decreasing for that increased productivity.

People calling for pay cuts for other people but probably not for themselves are in my book, Shills for the top tier.

People calling for payouts for themselves, well I say leave your job and get a lower paid one that fits your ideals.

addaword

smelly sock wrote: »

You're obviously in a position financially where you probably dont even need to work.

Not necessarily. Some people, in a secure job with a golden pension and who had got a 59% pay rise over 5 years, were happy to take a small pay cut when their employer faced grave financial difficulties.

addaword

Mr Meanor wrote: »

People calling for payouts for themselves, well I say leave your job and get a lower paid one that fits your ideals.

No. There are plenty of third level lecturers here who know they are overpaid, who know they make the same amount of money for relatively little work as say the presidents of some other countries do.

[Deleted User]

addaword wrote: »

Rubbish. I know lots of public servants like lecturers in third level who privately admit they were way overpaid when the last downturn happened in 2007, having had pay increases of a whopping 59% between 2001 and 2006.

You posted that already but I see you still refusing to post the job levels and hours from your study.

Were the staff all of similar education, importance and full-time?

Add that to all the other hard questions you will ignore while continuing to sprout nonsense.

[Deleted User]

addaword wrote: »

No. There are plenty of third level lecturers here who know they are overpaid, who know they make the same amount of money for relatively little work as say the presidents of some other countries do.

How much do you earn compared to a street seller in Niger?

seefin

smelly sock wrote: »

You're obviously in a position financially where you probably dont even need to work.

I really wish! Have big mortgage, my partner's business is gone belly up(as did I'm last recession) . I just know there's a massive recession coming and rather than see the government borrowing to pay us or cutting health services, I think it's only fair we take a hit in solidarity with rest of country. I'm principled, most people only think of themselves

[Deleted User]

noodler wrote: »

Given the number of poor performers is at least the same average as the private sector, it is clear that acceptable ratings of 98% mean managers don't really want the HR hassle of actually giving a proper, formal judgement of poor performers.

Or else it means that the selection and management processes mean that 98% of staff are competent to do their job.

seefin wrote: »

Am in public sector for years . Feel that frontline workers should be paid more and the rest of us have pay cuts to make up for it.

Why?

addaword wrote: »

Rubbish. I know lots of public servants like lecturers in third level who privately admit they were way overpaid when the last downturn happened in 2007, having had pay increases of a whopping 59% between 2001 and 2006.

It's amazing how many people admit stuff privately to you. Are you a priest or something?

seefin wrote: »

I really wish! Have big mortgage, my partner's business is gone belly up(as did I'm last recession) . I just know there's a massive recession coming and rather than see the government borrowing to pay us or cutting health services, I think it's only fair we take a hit in solidarity with rest of country. I'm principled, most people only think of themselves

If you want to take a hit in solidarity, you adjust the tax rates. That's solidarity - applying to everyone according to their means.

gmisk

smelly sock wrote: »

PMDS? I do it 3 times a year with my staff. You're talking out of your hoop.

Yep if you don't pass your PMDs you don't get your increment

[Deleted User]

JJJackal wrote: »

This comment was referring to giving extra money to people rather than reductions.

I dont think pay rises for the whole public sector is the way to got this year

There is no plan for pay rises for the whole public sector.

The plan is for restoration of some of the previous public sector cuts for those grades who haven't been restored yet.

And it's worth noting that the significant across the board cut of the PRD is still in place, without any discussion of how/when it's going to be restored.