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Public service pay cut?

[Deleted User]

Will, there be public service pay cuts and cuts to services themselves after COVID 19? interesting discussion on RTE 1 radio about this, on the other hand, the likes of David McWilliams take a different view on how we can pay for this.

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seefin

Am in public sector for years . Feel that frontline workers should be paid more and the rest of us have pay cuts to make up for it. It sickens me that all public sector workers are grouped together, can't see why some parts can't be protected while the others who have job security , yet aren't frontline are targeted. I have colleagues who complain that they would get paid more in the private sector and I know they'll be up in arms if pay cuts.. yet they stay because the job security and conditions make it worthwhile. I'll be genuinely disgusted if our salaries aren't cut in the next year.

ParkRunner

Where performance is not up to scratch in the public sector over a period of time the first step is to go through a performance improvement plan and monitor performance a lot more closely while that is in place. If the employee doesn’t respond positively, sanctions up to dismissal follow.

The main difference I see with private sector is the private sector works more on short term renewable contracts which aren’t renewed if the person isn’t wanted or needed. In the public sector there is a higher proportion of permanent contracts so there’s a lot more work done to try improve performance before going down the difficult dismissal process.

[Deleted User]

noodler wrote: »

Personal opinions and rants? I've been a public servant for Almost 8 years. I know exactly what I am talking about.

You have moved the goalposts.

First you claim PMDS is an effective tool for managing performance, when it is challenged (with evidence) you then state that performance isn't everything.

Try and stick to your guns.

You really are taking rubbish. Your OPINION of the system is exactly that, your opinion. It's not fact.

I haven't claimed that performance isn't everything. Where did I do that? Quote me please. I said that YOU consider the lack of dismissals as proof the system doesn't work. Isn't that your stance? No accountability because very few dismissals?

My last last about it being amazing was an attempt to show the difference between opinion and fact, it appears I failed.

[Deleted User]

noodler wrote: »

Personal opinions and rants? I've been a public servant for Almost 8 years. I know exactly what I am talking about.

You have moved the goalposts.

First you claim PMDS is an effective tool for managing performance, when it is challenged (with evidence) you then state that performance isn't everything.

Try and stick to your guns.

[Deleted User]

BrianD3 wrote: »

He said he was in the public sector and that he didn't have appraisals in the 2000s. Unless I missed an earlier post, he didn't claim that this was across the board.

Snow Garden wrote:

I was 5.5 years in the public sector in 2000s and never had a single formal performance appraisal with my manager. I checked with a former colleague and he says it's still the case. And I got my increments every year.

He claims it's still the case when in fact, it's not. All areas now have them. They are mandatory. He's also gone at least 10 years. His opinion doesn't carry the same weight as a current staff member

Sir Guy who smiles

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=

Birneybau wrote: »

The HSE is ridiculously top heavy salary-wise, it's a bloated fit for nothing bureaucratical organisation.

There should be more, better paid nurses and doctors, and less pencil pushers. Rid the HSE of most of the 'brain' trust and you'll have a more efficient entity, funding and work wise.

I'm not saying your wrong, but I hear a lot of people saying this, and what is it based on?

How many office workers and managers in the HES?
How many doctors, nurses, physios, radiologists?
How do we compare with other countries, especially those considered to have good health care?

I don't know. Do you?

And did you know before you decided there should be less "pencil pushers"? Or did you decide your opinion and look up the numbers afterwards?

[Deleted User]

Why does everyone want to concentrate on a performance protocol when the real saving could be made if the layers of bureaucracy where worked on.

But they how to square the circle of greater accountability.

thomasdylan

JJJackal wrote: »

It will also be interesting to see what happens if doctors and nurses who came home to help out are not kept on. Esp as without a vaccine there are likely to be peaks and troughs and these doctors and nurses will be needed again in the future (to come home from abroad to be on call for Ireland).

In my opinion there will be some rough industrial public sector talks and strikes when this is all over.

The majority of doctors coming back seem to have been planning on starting training schemes in July in Ireland anyway. They came back a few months early. A lot of them plan on doing a bit of travelling before starting schemes but that holidaymaking couldn't happen because of Covid-19 travel restrictions. Its good they did come back in case they were needed but the majority are fairly junior.

noodler

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

It is. It's very good, it's terrific, it might be the best system ever. It's so good it's been introduced in an Garda siochana as palf.

Personal opinions and rants aren't facts.

So, how does a high score in staff assessment mean the assessment system doesn't work? Only low scores and dismissals show a system to be effective? My comment stands.

Personal opinions and rants? I've been a public servant for Almost 8 years. I know exactly what I am talking about.

You have moved the goalposts.

First you claim PMDS is an effective tool for managing performance, when it is challenged (with evidence) you then state that performance isn't everything.

Try and stick to your guns.

noodler

smelly sock wrote: »

How is it not? How does PMDS work?

Previous post refers where you exaggerated the performance aspect of PMDS.

You said you have three formal reviews with your staff via PMDS.

1) goal setting. That's usually just the previous years broad objectives copied and pasted. A genuine performance review?

2) mid year review. This amounts to a couple of sentences on the progress towards these.

3) end-year. The most substantive to be sure.

Given the number of poor performers is at least the same average as the private sector, it is clear that acceptable ratings of 98% mean managers don't really want the HR hassle of actually giving a proper, formal judgement of poor performers.

[Deleted User]

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

You appear to base the success of a company on how bad their staff is and constant dismissals.

The public sector does it's job, it does it's job well. Not amazing but well. You get your money worth.

They are all minor issues in the great scheme of things an are not going to save a lot of money.

[Deleted User]

noodler wrote: »

Such a blanket write off to a genuine point.

"You appear to.."

Hang on a minute pal, the PMDS is being put forward here as a genuine performance system that can weed out poor performers. It actually isn't and that's what I have responded to. Don't go moving the goalposts.

It is. It's very good, it's terrific, it might be the best system ever. It's so good it's been introduced in an Garda siochana as palf.

Personal opinions and rants aren't facts.

So, how does a high score in staff assessment mean the assessment system doesn't work? Only low scores and dismissals show a system to be effective? My comment stands.

smelly sock

noodler wrote: »

Such a blanket write off to a genuine point.

"You appear to.."

Hang on a minute pal, the PMDS is being put forward here as a genuine performance system that can weed out poor performers. It actually isn't and that's what I have responded to. Don't go moving the goalposts.

How is it not? How does PMDS work?

noodler

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

You appear to base the success of a company on how bad their staff is and constant dismissals.

The public sector does it's job, it does it's job well. Not amazing but well. You get your money worth.

Such a blanket write off to a genuine point.

"You appear to.."

Hang on a minute pal, the PMDS is being put forward here as a genuine performance system that can weed out poor performers. It actually isn't and that's what I have responded to. Don't go moving the goalposts.

[Deleted User]

noodler wrote: »

Goal setting?

Mid year review?

End year review?

You are really exaggerating the performance aspect of PMDS.

I don't have figures since it moved to the binary acceptable/unacceptable but when a PQ was asked in the crisis of the number who received less than a 3 out of 5 (i.e. unacceptable) it was approximately 2%.

You appear to base the success of a company on how bad their staff is and constant dismissals.

The public sector does it's job, it does it's job well. Not amazing but well. You get your money worth.

BrianD3

smelly sock wrote: »

But there are appraisals. To say there is not across the board due to his own limited experience is a lie. Its a real INM and Fionan Sheehan type scatter gun approach to branding all Public Servants the same.

He said he was in the public sector and that he didn't have appraisals in the 2000s. Unless I missed an earlier post, he didn't claim that this was across the board.

Sierra Oscar wrote:

Your link literally states that performance management has been in place for Local Authorities and other public servants since as far back as 2005. 15 years ago. Snow Garden is claiming it still doesn't exist - which of course is complete rubbish.

Read the link again and try to get past the first line. There was "a system" in 2005, it was a farce. What would generally be understood to be appraisals weren't introduced until 2013. Has this been implemented consistently across the board by 2020 - well from what I hear it has not but of course that is just anecdotal so I'll concede that one.

What isn't up for debate is, if someone says that they worked in the public sector in the 2000s and states that they didn't have any appraisals, that is going to be correct depending on where they worked.

JJJackal

mariaalice wrote: »

But what has that got to do with it?, plus there needs to be spending in the econmey for a quick recovery thakeing money out of people would prolong the downturn.

This comment was referring to giving extra money to people rather than reductions.

I dont think pay rises for the whole public sector is the way to got this year

noodler

smelly sock wrote: »

PMDS? I do it 3 times a year with my staff. You're talking out of your hoop.

Goal setting?

Mid year review?

End year review?

You are really exaggerating the performance aspect of PMDS.

I don't have figures since it moved to the binary acceptable/unacceptable but when a PQ was asked in the crisis of the number who received less than a 3 out of 5 (i.e. unacceptable) it was approximately 2%.

[Deleted User]

JJJackal wrote: »

You cant continue to pay people what you dont have... Any increase that the public sector get this year and likely next year will be borrowed money

But what has that got to do with it?, plus there needs to be spending in the econmey for a quick recovery taking money out of people would prolong the downturn.

JJJackal

mariaalice wrote: »

Extreamly unlikely to be any pay cuts, the mood music is going the other way.

You cant continue to pay people what you dont have... Any increase that the public sector get this year and likely next year will be borrowed money

[Deleted User]

JJJackal wrote: »

Some members of the public sector such as nurses and doctors in particularly but also guards... have been working harder than ever before, doing whatever is asked of them without question to ensure the safety of the nation. To quote Leo or Churchill: "never has so much been owed by so many to so few."

You can of course argue that the private sector is paying all these people. I think not giving the pay rises in October is very reasonable. However, it will be interesting to see what is said if nurses for example are asked to take a 10% pay cut. Especially if teachers for example who nurses etc will perceive had an easier (I appreciate alot of teachers are working very hard to help their students) time get the same pay cut and not more.

It will also be interesting to see what happens if doctors and nurses who came home to help out are not kept on. Esp as without a vaccine there are likely to be peaks and troughs and these doctors and nurses will be needed again in the future (to come home from abroad to be on call for Ireland).

In my opinion there will be some rough industrial public sector talks and strikes when this is all over.

Extreamly unlikely to be any pay cuts, the mood music is going the other way.

[Deleted User]

Sheep Shagger wrote: »

ICTU boss saying on the front of the Business Post today that the public service MUST get their pay rises due later in the year and that these people have been keeping the country going of late.

Turns it into a real them and us argument unfortunately.

What about the private sector working and paying taxes to help pay the civil service pay bill?

We kept getting told we are all in this together, most if not all the private sector (if they still have jobs) are not getting pay rises infact some are losing hours/earnings...it's hardly equal?

The only time we hear 'were in this together' seems to be when the private sector slumps.

Let's be clear, the majority of private sector are still working and there's plenty that are still making profits.

The 350 a week isn't coming from the sky, civil servants pay tax too. They also buy food, get haircuts, have paid TV and phones, mobile phones, watches, bank accounts, pay bills, use services. That's all paying the private sector and your wages going by the "I pay your salary" mantra.

I dunno why it keeps going on. In reality the economy is circular. It's reliant on circulation of funds. Circulation via staff who pay taxes and buy stuff and donate and use services. They do this via their salaries which shockingly enough, is reliant on people paying taxes and buying stuff and donating and using services.

One can't function without the other. No company can pay it's staff without customers sputting money into the company and we, the public sector form part of those customers. We also form part of the 'tax payers'. Who does the other part? You do.

So yes, we are in this together because if one side stops, it hurts the other side which trickles down to the staff ON BOTH SIDES

JJJackal

Some members of the public sector such as nurses and doctors in particularly but also guards... have been working harder than ever before, doing whatever is asked of them without question to ensure the safety of the nation. To quote Leo or Churchill: "never has so much been owed by so many to so few."

You can of course argue that the private sector is paying all these people. I think not giving the pay rises in October is very reasonable. However, it will be interesting to see what is said if nurses for example are asked to take a 10% pay cut. Especially if teachers for example who nurses etc will perceive had an easier (I appreciate alot of teachers are working very hard to help their students) time get the same pay cut and not more.

It will also be interesting to see what happens if doctors and nurses who came home to help out are not kept on. Esp as without a vaccine there are likely to be peaks and troughs and these doctors and nurses will be needed again in the future (to come home from abroad to be on call for Ireland).

In my opinion there will be some rough industrial public sector talks and strikes when this is all over.

[Deleted User]

One of the big issues is the cost of doing everything in the public service and that is mostly caused by greater levels of accountability in the public services for example if I got a small bit of building work done in my house, a path or small wall I would get a price for a local get the work done the end.

In the public service, it gets three quotes, tax compliant cert, public liability insurance, etc. A public servant of some sort has to check the quotes, the tax cert, insurance, etc all for a very small job.

The general public wants accountability but all that makes everything more expensive.

[Deleted User]

addaword wrote: »

The country is in a worse position now, with the country 200 billion in debt and having to borrow so heavily now that they closed down so much of the wealth producing sector, that collected vat and tax to pay the government and public service.

Tell us more about how you generate wealth. I thought the government issued currency and controlled it.

You mean you take money and put it in the bank account if your company owners and CEOs who go from being multi millionaires to billionaires? That kinda wealth generating?

'wealth generator', what someone who wants to feel important but really isn't calls themselves to feel good.

Still waiting on all the evidence to backup your other claims in this thread by the way.

You know, top 5 in the world, When was the last lab tech dismissed from a pharmaceutical company for negligence, stats on wages in the private sector for educated full-time staff. All those pesky issues that you continue to now hide from.

Or are you going to continue to ignore hard questions and continue with baseless rants again?

Ireland is ranked 15th on health costs by the way. Heres another question you can ignore if the answer doesn't suit you. Where's that rank compared to private doctors salaries globally?

Sheep Shagger

ICTU boss saying on the front of the Business Post today that the public service MUST get their pay rises due later in the year and that these people have been keeping the country going of late.

Turns it into a real them and us argument unfortunately.

What about the private sector working and paying taxes to help pay the civil service pay bill?

We kept getting told we are all in this together, most if not all the private sector (if they still have jobs) are not getting pay rises infact some are losing hours/earnings...it's hardly equal?

[Deleted User]

Eric Cartman wrote: »

The only civil servants who suffered the last time were temps and brand new entrants, anyone pre 96 especially, and hefore you go on about the pension levy, calling that a hardship is like saying to an amputee ‘were the same, i once cut my finger ‘

You must have missed the overnight 10% reduction in pay and 25% on allowances.

You can't have your cake and eat it really. The public sector is steady and dependable, that's not a secret. We need education, we need police and medical staff and people in offices keeping the machine working. That won't change but again, if your chasing your first million then the public sector isn't for you.

Eric Cartman

tayto lover wrote: »

If there are cuts then both sectors will suffer them. Just like they usually do.

The only civil servants who suffered the last time were temps and brand new entrants, anyone pre 96 especially, and hefore you go on about the pension levy, calling that a hardship is like saying to an amputee ‘were the same, i once cut my finger ‘

Sierra Oscar

BrianD3 wrote: »

Just because your experience is different than his doesn't mean he's talking out of his hoop. Local authority workers are public servants and appraisals were implemented much later than they were in the civil service.

https://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/?id=2013-04-18a.52

Your link literally states that performance management has been in place for Local Authorities and other public servants since as far back as 2005. 15 years ago. Snow Garden is claiming it still doesn't exist - which of course is complete rubbish.

smelly sock

BrianD3 wrote: »

Just because your experience is different than his doesn't mean he's talking out of his hoop. Local authority workers are public servants and appraisals were implemented much later than they were in the civil service.

https://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/?id=2013-04-18a.52

But there are appraisals. To say there is not across the board due to his own limited experience is a lie. Its a real INM and Fionan Sheehan type scatter gun approach to branding all Public Servants the same.