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Public service pay cut?

[Deleted User]

Will, there be public service pay cuts and cuts to services themselves after COVID 19? interesting discussion on RTE 1 radio about this, on the other hand, the likes of David McWilliams take a different view on how we can pay for this.

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thenightman

Feck that. Two tier pay system or USC hasn't been eliminated yet. I'm a relatively new entrant to ps (3 odd years) and was promoted recently enough. People doing the exact same job as me will be 5 grand better off when we are at the top of the pay scale and
they also have far better pensions than our crappy single scheme. If they are cutting anyone's pay, its the pre 2011 entrants who can actually afford it.

I've been working normally over this pandemic period dealing with the public and in offices where social distancing is hard to achieve consistently. Its not just nurses, doctors and guards keeping the country going, thousands of public servants are doing thankless jobs too, and if government come back and cut pay or renege on pay agreements I will not be hesitant to call for strike action from my union rep.

[Deleted User]

1. pre 2011 are paid according to their terms and conditions (and indeed, less) so thats an issue that simply wouldnt allow for a "cut them, not us". hence changes to new entrants.

but, that said:

2. full equalisation of pay and conditions for new entrants (alas the single scheme aint going anywhere but everything else) should 100% be prioritised ahead of every other goal in the next talks once weve confirmed that agreed restoration etc are not affected.

3. agreed on strike. and i voted for the cuts last time given the straits the country was in

Plumbthedepths

thenightman wrote: »

I will not be hesitant to call for strike action from my union rep.

You do a very important job, but at this moment in time a shelf stacker in Aldi is more valuable. Pick your battle when you have a chance of winning it

addaword

Deleted User wrote: »

i voted for the cuts last time given the straits the country was in

The country is in a worse position now, with the country 200 billion in debt and having to borrow so heavily now that they closed down so much of the wealth producing sector, that collected vat and tax to pay the government and public service.

[Deleted User]

addaword wrote: »

The country is in a worse position now, with the country 200 billion in debt and having to borrow so heavily now that they closed down so much of the wealth producing sector, that collected vat and tax to pay the government and public service.

It's worth keeping in mind that your 'wealth producing sector' relies on the public sector for its education, its health, its infrastructure to get around and just about everything else.

Bicyclette

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

You do a very important job, but at this moment in time a shelf stacker in Aldi is more valuable. Pick your battle when you have a chance of winning it

How about all of the Covid Payments processed by Social Welfare in less than a fortnight?
How about all of the employer payment schemes being processed by Revenue?
How about the income being processed by Revenue which is paying for the Covid Payments?

The reality is that this war is against a common enemy - Covid 19. It should not descend into a Civil War between the public and private sectors.

Most people are struggling. I personally know people in both the private and public sectors who are working crazy hours.

All of us have an important role in this war. The frontline medical and ancillary staff, the people who keep us fed, the people who bring in the income and those who distribute it to those who need it, the people who help keep law and order, those who keep us clean and those who stay home and make sacrifices to stop the spread of the virus.

smelly sock

Snow Garden wrote: »

I was 5.5 years in the public sector in 2000s and never had a single formal performance appraisal with my manager. I checked with a former colleague and he says it's still the case. And I got my increments every year.

PMDS? I do it 3 times a year with my staff. You're talking out of your hoop.

addaword

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

It's worth keeping in mind that your 'wealth producing sector' relies on the public sector for its education, its health, its infrastructure to get around and just about everything else.

The net taxpayers of the country pay well for education, health care etc sometimes doing it on the double, like having to pay vhi to get decent health care even though the hse is one of the best funded health care systems in the world per head of population. Even in the previous recession, in 2010, Ireland spent €2,862 per capita on health, compared to a European Union average of €2,172 per capita, It has increased since. Yet we have less ventilators per head than most other countries. We spend most of the budget on pay.

The point is, as said before, of course there will be pay cuts, the country is living way beyond its means and is spending much more than it is taking in. It is unsustainable.

tayto lover

If there are cuts then both sectors will suffer them. Just like they usually do.

BrianD3

smelly sock wrote: »

PMDS? I do it 3 times a year with my staff. You're talking out of your hoop.

Just because your experience is different than his doesn't mean he's talking out of his hoop. Local authority workers are public servants and appraisals were implemented much later than they were in the civil service.

https://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/?id=2013-04-18a.52

smelly sock

BrianD3 wrote: »

Just because your experience is different than his doesn't mean he's talking out of his hoop. Local authority workers are public servants and appraisals were implemented much later than they were in the civil service.

https://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/?id=2013-04-18a.52

But there are appraisals. To say there is not across the board due to his own limited experience is a lie. Its a real INM and Fionan Sheehan type scatter gun approach to branding all Public Servants the same.

Sierra Oscar

BrianD3 wrote: »

Just because your experience is different than his doesn't mean he's talking out of his hoop. Local authority workers are public servants and appraisals were implemented much later than they were in the civil service.

https://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/?id=2013-04-18a.52

Your link literally states that performance management has been in place for Local Authorities and other public servants since as far back as 2005. 15 years ago. Snow Garden is claiming it still doesn't exist - which of course is complete rubbish.

Eric Cartman

tayto lover wrote: »

If there are cuts then both sectors will suffer them. Just like they usually do.

The only civil servants who suffered the last time were temps and brand new entrants, anyone pre 96 especially, and hefore you go on about the pension levy, calling that a hardship is like saying to an amputee ‘were the same, i once cut my finger ‘

[Deleted User]

Eric Cartman wrote: »

The only civil servants who suffered the last time were temps and brand new entrants, anyone pre 96 especially, and hefore you go on about the pension levy, calling that a hardship is like saying to an amputee ‘were the same, i once cut my finger ‘

You must have missed the overnight 10% reduction in pay and 25% on allowances.

You can't have your cake and eat it really. The public sector is steady and dependable, that's not a secret. We need education, we need police and medical staff and people in offices keeping the machine working. That won't change but again, if your chasing your first million then the public sector isn't for you.

Sheep Shagger

ICTU boss saying on the front of the Business Post today that the public service MUST get their pay rises due later in the year and that these people have been keeping the country going of late.

Turns it into a real them and us argument unfortunately.

What about the private sector working and paying taxes to help pay the civil service pay bill?

We kept getting told we are all in this together, most if not all the private sector (if they still have jobs) are not getting pay rises infact some are losing hours/earnings...it's hardly equal?

[Deleted User]

addaword wrote: »

The country is in a worse position now, with the country 200 billion in debt and having to borrow so heavily now that they closed down so much of the wealth producing sector, that collected vat and tax to pay the government and public service.

Tell us more about how you generate wealth. I thought the government issued currency and controlled it.

You mean you take money and put it in the bank account if your company owners and CEOs who go from being multi millionaires to billionaires? That kinda wealth generating?

'wealth generator', what someone who wants to feel important but really isn't calls themselves to feel good.

Still waiting on all the evidence to backup your other claims in this thread by the way.

You know, top 5 in the world, When was the last lab tech dismissed from a pharmaceutical company for negligence, stats on wages in the private sector for educated full-time staff. All those pesky issues that you continue to now hide from.

Or are you going to continue to ignore hard questions and continue with baseless rants again?

Ireland is ranked 15th on health costs by the way. Heres another question you can ignore if the answer doesn't suit you. Where's that rank compared to private doctors salaries globally?

[Deleted User]

One of the big issues is the cost of doing everything in the public service and that is mostly caused by greater levels of accountability in the public services for example if I got a small bit of building work done in my house, a path or small wall I would get a price for a local get the work done the end.

In the public service, it gets three quotes, tax compliant cert, public liability insurance, etc. A public servant of some sort has to check the quotes, the tax cert, insurance, etc all for a very small job.

The general public wants accountability but all that makes everything more expensive.

JJJackal

Some members of the public sector such as nurses and doctors in particularly but also guards... have been working harder than ever before, doing whatever is asked of them without question to ensure the safety of the nation. To quote Leo or Churchill: "never has so much been owed by so many to so few."

You can of course argue that the private sector is paying all these people. I think not giving the pay rises in October is very reasonable. However, it will be interesting to see what is said if nurses for example are asked to take a 10% pay cut. Especially if teachers for example who nurses etc will perceive had an easier (I appreciate alot of teachers are working very hard to help their students) time get the same pay cut and not more.

It will also be interesting to see what happens if doctors and nurses who came home to help out are not kept on. Esp as without a vaccine there are likely to be peaks and troughs and these doctors and nurses will be needed again in the future (to come home from abroad to be on call for Ireland).

In my opinion there will be some rough industrial public sector talks and strikes when this is all over.

[Deleted User]

Sheep Shagger wrote: »

ICTU boss saying on the front of the Business Post today that the public service MUST get their pay rises due later in the year and that these people have been keeping the country going of late.

Turns it into a real them and us argument unfortunately.

What about the private sector working and paying taxes to help pay the civil service pay bill?

We kept getting told we are all in this together, most if not all the private sector (if they still have jobs) are not getting pay rises infact some are losing hours/earnings...it's hardly equal?

The only time we hear 'were in this together' seems to be when the private sector slumps.

Let's be clear, the majority of private sector are still working and there's plenty that are still making profits.

The 350 a week isn't coming from the sky, civil servants pay tax too. They also buy food, get haircuts, have paid TV and phones, mobile phones, watches, bank accounts, pay bills, use services. That's all paying the private sector and your wages going by the "I pay your salary" mantra.

I dunno why it keeps going on. In reality the economy is circular. It's reliant on circulation of funds. Circulation via staff who pay taxes and buy stuff and donate and use services. They do this via their salaries which shockingly enough, is reliant on people paying taxes and buying stuff and donating and using services.

One can't function without the other. No company can pay it's staff without customers sputting money into the company and we, the public sector form part of those customers. We also form part of the 'tax payers'. Who does the other part? You do.

So yes, we are in this together because if one side stops, it hurts the other side which trickles down to the staff ON BOTH SIDES

[Deleted User]

JJJackal wrote: »

Some members of the public sector such as nurses and doctors in particularly but also guards... have been working harder than ever before, doing whatever is asked of them without question to ensure the safety of the nation. To quote Leo or Churchill: "never has so much been owed by so many to so few."

You can of course argue that the private sector is paying all these people. I think not giving the pay rises in October is very reasonable. However, it will be interesting to see what is said if nurses for example are asked to take a 10% pay cut. Especially if teachers for example who nurses etc will perceive had an easier (I appreciate alot of teachers are working very hard to help their students) time get the same pay cut and not more.

It will also be interesting to see what happens if doctors and nurses who came home to help out are not kept on. Esp as without a vaccine there are likely to be peaks and troughs and these doctors and nurses will be needed again in the future (to come home from abroad to be on call for Ireland).

In my opinion there will be some rough industrial public sector talks and strikes when this is all over.

Extreamly unlikely to be any pay cuts, the mood music is going the other way.

JJJackal

mariaalice wrote: »

Extreamly unlikely to be any pay cuts, the mood music is going the other way.

You cant continue to pay people what you dont have... Any increase that the public sector get this year and likely next year will be borrowed money

[Deleted User]

JJJackal wrote: »

You cant continue to pay people what you dont have... Any increase that the public sector get this year and likely next year will be borrowed money

But what has that got to do with it?, plus there needs to be spending in the econmey for a quick recovery taking money out of people would prolong the downturn.

noodler

smelly sock wrote: »

PMDS? I do it 3 times a year with my staff. You're talking out of your hoop.

Goal setting?

Mid year review?

End year review?

You are really exaggerating the performance aspect of PMDS.

I don't have figures since it moved to the binary acceptable/unacceptable but when a PQ was asked in the crisis of the number who received less than a 3 out of 5 (i.e. unacceptable) it was approximately 2%.

JJJackal

mariaalice wrote: »

But what has that got to do with it?, plus there needs to be spending in the econmey for a quick recovery thakeing money out of people would prolong the downturn.

This comment was referring to giving extra money to people rather than reductions.

I dont think pay rises for the whole public sector is the way to got this year

BrianD3

smelly sock wrote: »

But there are appraisals. To say there is not across the board due to his own limited experience is a lie. Its a real INM and Fionan Sheehan type scatter gun approach to branding all Public Servants the same.

He said he was in the public sector and that he didn't have appraisals in the 2000s. Unless I missed an earlier post, he didn't claim that this was across the board.

Sierra Oscar wrote:

Your link literally states that performance management has been in place for Local Authorities and other public servants since as far back as 2005. 15 years ago. Snow Garden is claiming it still doesn't exist - which of course is complete rubbish.

Read the link again and try to get past the first line. There was "a system" in 2005, it was a farce. What would generally be understood to be appraisals weren't introduced until 2013. Has this been implemented consistently across the board by 2020 - well from what I hear it has not but of course that is just anecdotal so I'll concede that one.

What isn't up for debate is, if someone says that they worked in the public sector in the 2000s and states that they didn't have any appraisals, that is going to be correct depending on where they worked.

[Deleted User]

noodler wrote: »

Goal setting?

Mid year review?

End year review?

You are really exaggerating the performance aspect of PMDS.

I don't have figures since it moved to the binary acceptable/unacceptable but when a PQ was asked in the crisis of the number who received less than a 3 out of 5 (i.e. unacceptable) it was approximately 2%.

You appear to base the success of a company on how bad their staff is and constant dismissals.

The public sector does it's job, it does it's job well. Not amazing but well. You get your money worth.

noodler

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

You appear to base the success of a company on how bad their staff is and constant dismissals.

The public sector does it's job, it does it's job well. Not amazing but well. You get your money worth.

Such a blanket write off to a genuine point.

"You appear to.."

Hang on a minute pal, the PMDS is being put forward here as a genuine performance system that can weed out poor performers. It actually isn't and that's what I have responded to. Don't go moving the goalposts.

smelly sock

noodler wrote: »

Such a blanket write off to a genuine point.

"You appear to.."

Hang on a minute pal, the PMDS is being put forward here as a genuine performance system that can weed out poor performers. It actually isn't and that's what I have responded to. Don't go moving the goalposts.

How is it not? How does PMDS work?

[Deleted User]

noodler wrote: »

Such a blanket write off to a genuine point.

"You appear to.."

Hang on a minute pal, the PMDS is being put forward here as a genuine performance system that can weed out poor performers. It actually isn't and that's what I have responded to. Don't go moving the goalposts.

It is. It's very good, it's terrific, it might be the best system ever. It's so good it's been introduced in an Garda siochana as palf.

Personal opinions and rants aren't facts.

So, how does a high score in staff assessment mean the assessment system doesn't work? Only low scores and dismissals show a system to be effective? My comment stands.

[Deleted User]

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

You appear to base the success of a company on how bad their staff is and constant dismissals.

The public sector does it's job, it does it's job well. Not amazing but well. You get your money worth.

They are all minor issues in the great scheme of things an are not going to save a lot of money.