STB. wrote: » Tegnell has no credibility. The headline Should have read, "Once you choose to embrace unknown herd immunity policies, it’s difficult to admit you were wrong". He has led his country down a road that will be difficult to come back from. Sweden's deaths have went from 239 on 1 April to 2,355 deaths as of now. And they still refuse to do anything. Their only saving grace that the figures are not even higher is that 50% of Stockholm ignored him and self isolated or worked from home. The death rate in Sweden has now risen significantly higher than many other countries in Europe, reaching more than 22 per 100,000 people. Denmark is 7 per 100,000 people. Norway and Finland less than 4 per 100k. The Czech Republic has the same population as Sweden and have 223 deaths vs Sweden's 2,355. TEN times the death rate. The difference in employing control measures over deploying daft policies of herd immunity are evident at this stage, and if you believe otherwise you are living in Cloud Cuckoo land. When other countries are opening back up, Sweden will be shutting down. Eitherway, countless unnecessary deaths will have occurred in favour of economics.
STB. wrote: » Many posts in this thread are advocating herd immunity as Sweden have adopted and purporting it as some form of magical approach to tackling the virus. The reality is its a live experiment played with the lives of real people and it is not working. The most important comparisons are those among the Nordic Countries who have similar cultural, geographical and sociological attributes. The stark difference between those that did employ measures and those that did not is evident in their death rates. Sweden - 2,355 deaths among 10.3 million people Denmark - 427 deaths among 5.8 million people Norway - 206 deaths among 5.4 million people Finland - 193 deaths among 5.5 million people So more than double the deaths than other Nordic countries who have a population totaling 17mill vs 10 mill in Sweden. Astounding. Sweden's National Board of Health and Welfare published a new set of data 2 days ago which suggest the real death toll from Covid19 could be 10 percent higher than Public Health Agency figures reported.
STB. wrote: » Many posts in this thread are advocating herd immunity as Sweden have adopted and purporting it as some form of magical approach to tackling the virus. The reality is its a live experiment played with the lives of real people and it is not working. The most important comparisons are those among the Nordic Countries who have similar cultural, geographical and sociological attributes. The stark difference between those that did employ measures and those that did not is evident in their death rates. Sweden - 2,355 deaths among 10.3 million people Denmark - 427 deaths among 5.8 million people Norway - 206 deaths among 5.4 million people Finland - 193 deaths among 5.5 million people Three times the deaths than other Nordic countries who have a population totaling 17mill vs 10 mill in Sweden. Astounding. Sweden's National Board of Health and Welfare published a new set of data 2 days ago which suggest the real death toll from Covid19 could be 10 percent higher than Public Health Agency figures reported.
it has been reported in British media that the UK’s response to the coronavirus crisis may cause 150,000 deaths that could have been avoided. This figure is much higher than current projections of deaths from COVID-19.
STB. wrote: » The most important comparisons are those among the Nordic Countries who have similar cultural, geographical and sociological attributes. The stark difference between those that did employ measures and those that did not is evident in their death rates.
cnocbui wrote: » Suicide rates tend to go up as economic conditions decline, so it might just turn out to be a choice between the mechanism of death. It's not as simple as just SARS-2 death rates.
JeffKenna wrote: » Sweden is actually in Northern Europe according to the UN so you might want to add Ireland and the UK to your analysis.
STB. wrote: » Many posts in this thread are advocating herd immunity as Sweden have adopted and purporting it as some form of magical approach to tackling the virus. The reality is its a live experiment played with the lives of real people and it is not working. The most important comparisons are those among the Nordic Countries who have similar cultural, geographical and sociological attributes. The stark difference between those that did employ measures and those that did not is evident in their death rates. Sweden - 2,355 deaths among 10.3 million people Denmark - 427 deaths among 5.8 million people Norway - 206 deaths among 5.4 million people Finland - 193 deaths among 5.5 million people Three times the deaths than other Nordic countries combined who have a population totaling 17mill vs 10 mill in Sweden. Astounding. Sweden's National Board of Health and Welfare published a new set of data 2 days ago which suggest the real death toll from Covid19 could be 10 percent higher than Public Health Agency figures reported.
seamus wrote: » And the same for us. Compare to our neighbours and the countries with whom we do the most travel. UK, by a country mile, Netherlands, France, US and to a lesser extent Belgium, Germany and Spain.
STB. wrote: » This is a thread about "Sweden avoiding lockdown". Many posts are advocating herd immunity. Many are denying this is what Sweden has adopted. Sweden's state epidemiologist Anders Tegnell in an interview with the BBC on Friday 24th April said that "his country would likely be in a better place to withstand a second wave of coronavirus because so many people in Sweden have now been exposed to the virus". (this goes against scientific evidence and WHO who have warned that there is 'No evidence' that recovered COVID-19 patients cannot be reinfected) Asked whether Sweden's approach will help it withstand a possible second wave, Tegnell said he believed it would. "It will definitely affect the reproduction rate and slow down the spread," he said, but added that it wouldn't be enough to achieve "herd immunity." "We know very little about the immunity of this disease, but most of the experts in Sweden agree that some kind of immunity we definitely will have because a lot of people that have been tested so far have produced antibodies ... We hope this will make it easier for us in the long run." If that doesn't tell you the guessing games going on with people's lives, nothing will.
jaykay74 wrote: » Whats your thoughts on the number of ICU beds available in Sweden ?
Deleted User wrote: » The Swedes are not idiots. The argument that it's better for many or most of the population to have got it before winter comes around makes plenty of sense to me. We shall see.
wakka12 wrote: » I was initially very sceptical of the Swedish approach, but unfortunately all that criticism of Swedish death rates above can also be said of Ireland which has a higher death rate but has been in lock down for weeks. So where does that leave us
STB. wrote: » Sorry that is just whataboutery cnocbui. They don't ravage and escalate on the scale of a pandemic. Jeff I stated that the most important comparisons are those among the Nordic Countries themselves who have similar cultural, geographical and sociological attributes I am not getting into an argument with people on this, I am just stating it as it is. The actual number of all deaths in Sweden in the first few weeks of April far exceed those going back 20 years.
Suicide Isn't A U.S. Problem. It's A Global Health Epidemic
STB. wrote: » The World Health Organization (WHO) has already stated that there was currently “no evidence” that people who have recovered from COVID-19 and have antibodies are protected from a second coronavirus infection.
JoChervil wrote: » But Sweden death count is way underestimated because they count only death confirmed with tests. Those who died of Covid-19 without testing are not counted.
cnocbui wrote: » Sweden is not doing worse than the UK, Ireland, France, Belgium, Italy, Spain and the Netherlands - why not berate them for the wrong approach? If Sweden were in the top three, then their approach would be questionable, but they aren't, so their approach is so far no worse than Ireland's.
plodder wrote: » They have publicly and embarrassingly retracted that statement.
STB. wrote: » SOURCE!
STB. wrote: » If that doesn't tell you the guessing games going on with people's lives, nothing will.
plodder wrote: » Previous page on this thread, but let me provide the link anyway ..
plodder wrote: » Previous page on this thread, but let me provide the link anyway ..https://twitter.com/WHO/status/1254160937805926405
STB. wrote: » That has not stopped Sweden adopting a herd immunity strategy as if it is a proven fact. They are gambling on the unknown. Gambling with their own citizens lives.
seamus wrote: » That's not a retraction, it's a clarification. The WHO, reasonably, expects that anyone infected will have some level of immunity from Covid. However at present there is no evidence to support the belief that an immunity exists. These two statements do not conflict with one another. The lack of evidence is not because they can't find anyone who is immune, but because there is as yet no test for immunity that has been proven reliable. It's very difficult to reduce immunology to short twitter soundbites, and worse when people start assuming absolutes from vague statements.
plodder wrote: » It's a retraction. It's a bit like me saying "there is no evidence the sun will come up tomorrow" because I won't know for sure until it actually does. Just like I would be ignoring evidence of previous days when the sun came up, the WHO were ignoring evidence from previous similar viruses. The level of confidence is vastly different in both of these examples, but the WHO were deliberately downplaying the confidence in the virus case. The "clarified" statement acknowledges that it's likely there will be some immunity and is the kind of non-emotive factual statement they should be dealing in. Maybe they should stay off twitter if they can't be trusted to be measured and careful in their language.
STB. wrote: » The World Health Organization (WHO) has already stated that there was currently “no evidence” that people who have recovered from COVID-19 and have antibodies are protected from a second coronavirus infection. You don't experiment on your citizens. You do everything to prevent it spreading to avoid needless deaths.
Deleted User wrote: » I'm certainly not interested in Trump-style WHO bashing but I agree about this, it is incredibly irresponsible the way they have repeatedly made statements implying that there is no immunity, only for people to have to read the small print to get the actual truth. They should be clearly stating immunity is EXPECTED but we don't know the details yet and it can't be guaranteed. I think someone in there is a little bit in love with the big dramatic statement.
Charles Babbage wrote: » Sweden is experiencing deaths, they just aren' t attributing them to Covid19.
STB. wrote: » Yeah it was not an embarrassing retraction. It was a clarification on "immunity passports". Lets spell out what they said.We expect that most people who are infected with #COVID19 will develop an antibody response that will provide some level of protection. What we don't yet know is the level of protection or how long it will last. We are working with scientists around the world to better understand the body's response to #COVID19 infection. So far, no studies have answered these important questions.That has not stopped Sweden adopting a herd immunity strategy as if it is a proven fact. They are gambling on the unknown. Gambling with their own citizens lives.
While there was some early talk in Sweden of achieving “herd immunity,” which would mean infecting at least 60 percent of the population, Mr. Tegnell denies that was ever the government’s policy. “Basically we are trying to do the same thing that most countries are doing — slow down the spread as much as possible,” he said. “It’s just that we use slightly different tools than many other countries.”
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