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Masks

fr336

How many people on Boards have a mask and if so are you wearing them for essential trips? And this late in the day where can you get one that is going to be half decent and not from a suspect seller who could have done anything to it?

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dfx-

Wibbs wrote: »

Viral load in Covid19 patients has shown to be high.

We detected coronavirus in respiratory droplets and aerosols in 3 of 10 (30%) and 4 of 10 (40%) of the samples collected without face masks, respectively, but did not detect any virus in respiratory droplets or aerosols collected from participants wearing face masks, this difference was significant in aerosols and showed a trend toward reduced detection in respiratory droplets

The conclusion was:
We identified seasonal human coronaviruses, influenza viruses and rhinoviruses in exhaled breath and coughs of children and adults with acute respiratory illness. Surgical face masks significantly reduced detection of influenza virus RNA in respiratory droplets and coronavirus RNA in aerosols, with a trend toward reduced detection of coronavirus RNA in respiratory droplets. Our results indicate that surgical face masks could prevent transmission of human coronaviruses and influenza viruses from symptomatic individuals.

Same paper:

Among the samples collected without a face mask, we found that the majority of participants with influenza virus and coronavirus infection did not shed detectable virus in respiratory droplets or aerosols.

Our results also indicate that there could be considerable heterogeneity in contagiousness of individuals with coronavirus and influenza virus infections.

A majority did not shed coronavirus and there is considerable heterogeneity in contagiousness?

The major limitation of our study was the large proportion of participants with undetectable viral shedding in exhaled breath for each of the viruses studied.

....Another limitation is that we did not confirm the infectivity of coronavirus or rhinovirus detected in exhaled breath.

They state themselves the major limitations.

railer201

Key workers should be given masks, BMA chair says From an ITV report 26-04-20

..................

He told the Daily Telegraph that the doctors’ union believes all key workers outside of the NHS should be provided with masks or suitable face coverings.

He said this includes “transport workers, shopkeepers, carers or supermarket staff” who are unable to abide by social distancing.

“Common sense tells you that a barrier between people must offer a level of protection, however small,” Dr Nagpaul said.

“The Government must pursue all avenues of reducing the spread of infection.

“This includes asking the public to wear face coverings to cover mouths and noses when people leave home for essential reasons.”

He said that until “sufficient supplies of PPE are provided” to the front line, this may initially mean members of the public wearing cloth masks and scarves.

.................

My emphasis above.

It's very clear what the British Medical Association are advising both key workers and the public to do - basically to wear masks.

https://www.itv.com/news/2020-04-26/key-workers-should-be-given-masks-bma-chair-says/

Wibbs

Sleeper12 wrote: »

Not my logic. I follow the WHO & HSE advice.

Yeah well, given both their track records of late... The HSE and the government they were advising were coming out with howlers not so long ago. Where's our proper contact tracing, our testing(which has been a shambles overall), our border health checks, our quarantine options? Nowhere. The HSE are the usual massively bloated, expensive mediocre joke at that level. Even the minister not so long ago said they weren't fit for purpose in a few areas. That didn't change with this crisis.

Do you not see people every day using masks in a dangerous way? Do you not believe that the government should educate these people on the safe way to wear a mask.

The HSE already are. Bit of a turn about on their part. Then again they tend to just ape the advice of the WHO so they can do the usual civil service thing of avoiding the crap in the aftermath as they "were just following orders" like good little foot soldiers. The nations that have ignored much the WHO "advice" from early on have done way better than Ireland as far as numbers infected and numbers dead.

Though even here the HSE are a bloody mediocre joke as usual. In the how to use masks section, they don't outline the type of mask, or the differences between them, or how this might impact use. "Do not reuse a mask." Yeah, I must throw my respirator in the bin after going to the shops. :rolleyes: Copypasta mediocre muppets. As usual. If we have to entirely rely on that lot, we're fucked.

[Deleted User]

Wibbs wrote:

Yeah well, given both their track records of late... The HSE and the government they were advising were coming out with howlers not so long ago. Where's our proper contact tracing, our testing(which has been a shambles overall), our border health checks, our quarantine options? Nowhere. The HSE are the usual massively bloated, expensive mediocre joke at that level. Even the minister not so long ago said they weren't fit for purpose in a few areas. That didn't change with this crisis.

I totally agree with you on how bad the government's mistakes have been. My 89 year old father in law is in hospital with Covid19. He needs oxygen 24/7. He was infected by a member of staff in a nursing home. We know this because he hasn't left his room since January & wasn't allowed visitors since early March. The government ignored the elderly in nursing homes. They ignored the nursing home owners who begged for help, training and PPE since before Paddy's day. It was known in January that the elderly were the most vulnerable. Instead of protecting them they totally ignored them until about a week ago. There are many lives lost due to the government's mistakes. That's not to say that they got everything wrong. We shut the schools earlier than most countries.

On the other hand using your logic don't you think it totally nuts that you are following Trumps advice and wearing a mask? I mean this country probably made the most & the most costly mistakes (UK coming a close 2nd).

There is still no conclusive proof that wearing masks protects the wearer. If you want to stay safe then stay home. That's the only advice that every country agrees on.

Look at the end of the day you wearing a mask does not offend me or upset me. My genuine concern is how many people are using them in a dangerous manner. I'm not concerned that they wear them. I'm concerned about the pulling it up and down. The constant touching of the mask that concerns me. As I said before, if covid 19 was widespread in the community some people risk killing themselves because they can't be arsed to learn how to use the PPE that they wear.

Thingymebob

I ordered nose bridge strips for the nose bridge via Ali Express. Search for ‘100 Pcs Nose Bridge Strips’. Yes, it’ll probably take a month to turn up, but I think I’ve got time to wait. I’ve been getting AliExpress orders continuously since mid March.

For the filter material, I ordered K TEX Melt Blown Large Polypropylene Wipes
https://www.totalsource.ie/p/k-tex-melt-blown-large-polypropylene-wipes/hb90

Himself has been in a DIY frenzy so not yet gotten the sewing machine out to start trying out templates.

Thingymebob

Sleeper12 wrote: »

I totally agree with you on how bad the government's mistakes have been. My 89 year old father in law is in hospital with Covid19. He needs oxygen 24/7. He was infected by a member of staff in a nursing home. We know this because he hasn't left his room since January & wasn't allowed visitors since early March.

I’m personally horrified and appalled by how badly affected the elderly have been here. The government had an opportunity to observe and prepare, and I feel they squandered it.

Sleeper12 wrote: »

There is still no conclusive proof that wearing masks protects the wearer. If you want to stay safe then stay home. That's the only advice that every country agrees on.

Look at the end of the day you wearing a mask does not offend me or upset me. My genuine concern is how many people are using them in a dangerous manner. I'm not concerned that they wear them. I'm concerned about the pulling it up and down. The constant touching of the mask that concerns me. As I said before, if covid 19 was widespread in the community some people risk killing themselves because they can't be arsed to learn how to use the PPE that they wear.

Im wearing a mask in case I’ve got it. I’d hate myself if I had it and gave it to someone vulnerable. I’ve got two autoimmune conditions myself, but I’m still in pretty good health. Someone else might not. I spent a good few hours last week worried, then I copped on I had hay fever.

I get what you’re saying though. Two weeks ago I was in Aldi and watched a late middle aged couple doing their weekly shop; he had the mask on properly, she had it covering her mouth, but resting on her upper lip so her nostrils were out - saw her sneeze several times. Yes she sneezed into her elbow but still disappointing.

Seanergy

Just got tweeted a link, Time to get the toothpicks out.

This is stage 2 of the shot fired, we are still in the WHO PR game. Note 21 days since silver bullet.

Q&A on COVID-19 and masks: April 26th

I will comment on it after I have read it for the third time.

Screen-Shot-2020-04-27-at-10.43.29.png

McGiver

Sleeper12 wrote: »

I think the government should say right lots of people want to wear masks despite the WHO & HSE advice, therefore we should educate them on how to use them correctly. We can argue about how useful they are or aren't at a later stage but for now we train people to use them safely. Masks are capable of killing someone if not used correctly

The overall benefit of everyone wearing a mask is immensely more beneficial for the society as a whole than the potential negative impact of some individuals wearing masks improperly.

It's a simple few bullet points do's & dont's list the gov would have to do, not a rocket science.

The US CDC said just the following:

Should cloth face coverings be washed or otherwise cleaned regularly? How regularly?
Yes. They should be routinely washed depending on the frequency of use.

How does one safely sterilize/clean a cloth face covering?
A washing machine should suffice in properly washing a face covering.

How does one safely remove a used cloth face covering?
Individuals should be careful not to touch their eyes, nose, and mouth when removing their face covering and wash hands immediately after removing.

McGiver

Seanergy wrote: »

Just got tweeted a link, Time to get the toothpicks out.

This is stage 2 of the shot fired, we are still in the WHO PR game. Note 21 days since silver bullet.

Q&A on COVID-19 and masks: April 26th

I will comment on it after I have read it for the third time.

In fairness, it's not a change - they've always had this position, but didn't say it publicly.

They did confirm this to the Czech minister of health and epidemiologist when they asked WHO about their mandatory masks policy. They said they conditionally supported it unless it didn't divert PPE from the health care workers.

Wibbs

Sleeper12 wrote: »

I totally agree with you on how bad the government's mistakes have been. My 89 year old father in law is in hospital with Covid19. He needs oxygen 24/7. He was infected by a member of staff in a nursing home. We know this because he hasn't left his room since January & wasn't allowed visitors since early March. The government ignored the elderly in nursing homes. They ignored the nursing home owners who begged for help, training and PPE since before Paddy's day. It was known in January that the elderly were the most vulnerable. Instead of protecting them they totally ignored them until about a week ago. There are many lives lost due to the government's mistakes. That's not to say that they got everything wrong. We shut the schools earlier than most countries.

That was about the only thing they got right S. They screwed up or delayed in damned near everything else. And are still the mediocre fcukwits they've always been. At least they're consistent in that. What has mostly saved our figures being even more awful has been our low population density. They squandered that advantage and others.

And yeah especially with regard to the elderly in care homes. Then again they have previous in ignoring them. Plus it's not just on the government's heads, the Irish people have been guilty of ignoring their elderly relatives in such homes. Too many - and I've seen this up close - adopted an out of sight, out of mind attitude to the elderly.

On the other hand using your logic don't you think it totally nuts that you are following Trumps advice and wearing a mask?

What? No that's not logical at all.

There is still no conclusive proof that wearing masks protects the wearer.

Show me conclusive proof that the two metre distancing advice works. Good luck with that. On hand washing? That's surely very effective yeah? Have a look at this 2014 review into various studies(10 randomised controls) into flu transmission.

Community-based prevention strategies for seasonal and pandemic influenza are essential to minimize their potential threat to public health. Our aim was to evaluate the efficacy of hand hygiene interventions in reducing influenza transmission in the community and to investigate the possible modifying effects of latitude, temperature and humidity on hand hygiene efficacy. We identified 979 articles in the initial search and 10 randomized controlled trials met our inclusion criteria. The combination of hand hygiene with facemasks was found to have statistically significant efficacy against laboratory-confirmed influenza while hand hygiene alone did not. Our meta-regression model did not identify statistically significant effects of latitude, temperature or humidity on the efficacy of hand hygiene. Our findings highlight the potential importance of interventions that protect against multiple modes of influenza transmission, and the modest efficacy of hand hygiene suggests that additional measures besides hand hygiene may also be important to control influenza.

Note the bold parts. Again, this does not mean I consider hand washing to be ineffective. Like distancing, it's another weapon against this virus and the more weapons we fire at this the quicker we'll kill it. The countries that fired the most weapons have done significantly better than us and masks were in their arsenal.

Bob24

McGiver wrote: »

In fairness, it's not a change - they've always had this position, but didn't say it publicly.

They have been very ambivalent: as you said they basically intentionally worded the official advice in their website in such way that it could be part-quoted or mis-quoted to imply they were recommending against using masks for the general public (which many governments unable to provide masks have done extensively to justify their recommendation not to use masks, including our government). And their advice has also been worded in such way that at a later stage they can come back and say they have been misquoted, but they certainly have refrained from doing that until now and have let governments use their caution to recommend against masks, which is definitely intentional.

If they they are now more clearly saying that they recommend using masks with no caveats, I would still call it a change of position.

Seanergy

McGiver wrote: »

In fairness, it's not a change - they've always had this position, but didn't say it publicly.

Yes corrrect, the content with the image is not new, but the content on the WHO website which I gave the link to is, from yesterday's newroom.

[IMG]https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/Screen Shot 2020-04-27 at 11.43.05[/IMG]

Boggles

People need to face up to reality, we will all be wearing them soon if we want to go to certain places and use certain services.

The likes of Germany are not recommending or making them compulsory in certain states for the craic.

Arrival

Looking at Czechias stats and ours is just becoming a bit depressing at this stage. Are they testing enough and reporting deaths the same way we are though? I know some countries aren't which kind of skews the stats

Wibbs

If the Czechs are fudging the numbers A they'd have to "hide" four out of five deaths to match ours. Possible, but highly unlikely. We have not done well in this crisis, at all. Anyone who reckons we have is kidding themselves, maybe to feel less anxious about it.

Kinda like those looking to the deaths in care homes. It is terrible, but it takes away focus from the fact that the rest of the infections are coming from community spread.

Wibbs

Zardoz wrote: »

https://www.independent.ie/opinion/comment/face-masks-are-key-to-halting-coronavirus-and-helping-us-leave-lockdown-39157415.html

This is the same guy who went on the Late Late show and incredulously told people that there was no need to be wearing masks and that hand washing was just as effective.:mad:

Just saw that Z. Yep, you couldn't make it up. These are our "experts". But let's wait and see how long they actually take the finger out of their collective holes and actually do something. Going on previous by our authorities I'd not be holding my breath.

stockshares

Wibbs wrote: »

Just saw that Z. Yep, you couldn't make it up. These are our "experts". But let's wait and see how long they actually take the finger out of their collective holes and actually do something. Going on previous by our authorities I'd not be holding my breath.

He's on in a few mins with Claire Byrne on Rte 1 radio.

Wibbs

I truly wish someone in the media would take to task some of these muppets and their contrary advice and their slow, sometimes painfully slow response to this crisis, rather than the usual fawning and patting ourselves on the back for doing a great pretty shitty job. And pigs might fly.

Outlaw Pete

We should have something like Budapest where almost all public settings masks are mandatory:

https://hungarytoday.hu/coronavirus-face-masks-mandatory-to-enter-budapest-shops-public-transport-taxis/

Outlaw Pete

Interesting study on decontamination of masks so they can be reusable:

https://www.niaid.nih.gov/news-events/nih-study-validates-decontamination-methods-re-use-n95-respirators

maninasia

Wibbs wrote: »

I truly wish someone in the media would take to task some of these muppets and their contrary advice and their slow, sometimes painfully slow response to this crisis, rather than the usual fawning and patting ourselves on the back for doing a great pretty shitty job. And pigs might fly.

Brilliant man well known in his field of immunology but he should have realised that Asians don't wear facemasks because of respect, they wear them because they work. Asia also has many brilliant scientists and doctors and far more experience in dealing with epidemics.
Public health is taken very seriously.

Common sense tells even a child that they stop you from spewing virus laden droplets everywhere.

Defaulting to the WHO when it goes against what is very simple commonsense was foolish but many many givernnents went down that blind alley (those fools still say only healthy people need to wear a mask...).

And there was plenty of existing evidence that masks cut down on droplets significantly, it's not new research per se. Cochrane study masks. Google it.

https://youtu.be/g7_P2RmrA6U

2u2me

Wibbs wrote: »

I truly wish someone in the media would take to task some of these muppets and their contrary advice and their slow, sometimes painfully slow response to this crisis, rather than the usual fawning and patting ourselves on the back for doing a great pretty shitty job. And pigs might fly.

I felt this way about them for a while now. They're happy to pedal whatever they think makes us safer, rather then us knowing the truth. They think it's better for us in a toxic orwellian type of way.

Can't fault their intentions, but it's near impossible to have any kind of reasoned debate without appeals to emotion.

In this case the shortage is driving their narrative. Expect it to change when supply can match demand.

railer201

Seanergy wrote: »

Yes corrrect, the content with the image is not new, but the content on the WHO website which I gave the link to is, from yesterday's newroom.

[IMG]https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/Screen Shot 2020-04-27 at 11.43.05[/IMG]

Within that link is another link to their updated PDF - Advice on the use of face masks - which, in the instance of non-medical (cloth) face masks, refers to 'decision makers' in the third person, so apparently nothing to do with them.

Who then (pardon the pun) are our decision makers and will they lead the way in ensuring we, the public, will wear masks when the lockdown is lifted and we have to mingle closely with other people on public transport, footpaths, in shops etc.?

Wibbs

railer201 wrote: »

Who then (pardon the pun) are our decision makers and will they lead the way in ensuring we, the public, will wear masks when the lockdown is lifted and we have to mingle closely with other people on public transport, footpaths, in shops etc.?

Lead? Make a decision without handholding from and passing on responsibility to the WHO? In this country? Fat chance R.

railer201

Wibbs wrote: »

Lead? Make a decision without handholding from and passing on responsibility to the WHO? In this country? Fat chance R.

I really have my doubts whether we'll see the majority wearing of masks by the public when the lockdown starts to be lifted, without leadership from somewhere advocating the wearing of masks, medical or otherwise, with a sustained campaign on mainstream media.

Something the public in general should give serious consideration to, as the price for getting this wrong couldn't be any higher.

Seanergy

railer201 wrote: »

Within that link is another link to their updated PDF - Advice on the use of face masks - which, in the instance of non-medical (cloth) face masks, refers to 'decision makers' in the third person, so apparently nothing to do with them.

Who then (pardon the pun) are our decision makers and will they lead the way in ensuring we, the public, will wear masks when the lockdown is lifted and we have to mingle closely with other people on public transport, footpaths, in shops etc.?

Exactly, the HSE aren't operating a decision maker's approach to COVID-19, HSE are operating the delayed response strategy in line with recommendations from the WHO and the ECDC. So no further action will be taken by the HSE until the WHO gets to stage 3 of the silver bullet campaign, recommending, WHO are still saving face stage. There might not even be a stage 3 without sound scientific evidence, regardlesss of the practical.

The way I see it is the ECDC and the WHO were sitting on the other side of the fence, now they are sitting on it. The HSE is still sitting on the other side of the fence, they won't get on the fence until the others are both over.

WHO - "Currently there is not enough evidence for or against the use of masks (medical or other) for healthy individuals in the wider community."

Wibbs

railer201 wrote: »

Something the public in general should give serious consideration to, as the price for getting this wrong couldn't be any higher.

The Irish general public will in the vast majority follow authority. We love authority in this culture. The "rebel Irish" thing is a myth. The most we'll tend to do is a "ah be grand, shure I'll bend the rules a little". You will almost certainly not see the wearing of masks or anything like that come from the grassroots like it did with the Czechs. Sad to say we're a culture that prefers to be led and even sadder to say we've mediocre leaders in the driving seat now.

railer201

Seanergy wrote: »

Exactly, the HSE aren't operating a decision maker's approach to COVID-19, HSE are operating the delayed response strategy in line with recommendations from the WHO and the ECDC. So no further action will be taken by the HSE until the WHO gets to stage 3 of the silver bullet campaign, recommending, WHO are still saving face stage. There might not even be a stage 3 without sound scientific evidence, regardlesss of the practical.

The way I see it is the ECDC and the WHO were sitting on the other side of the fence, now they are sitting on it. The HSE is still sitting on the other side of the fence, they won't get on the fence until the others are both over.

WHO - "Currently there is not enough evidence for or against the use of masks (medical or other) for healthy individuals in the wider community."

Maddening stuff really, in that healthy individuals can also be potential asymptomatic carriers and spreaders.

God bless America and the CDC's attitude to the public wearing masks , c/w instructions on how to make them. Any TV news clip from over there atm shows the majority are wearing their home made masks.

Write the manuals and the peer reviewed studies up later on - the battle is raging now FFS.

And for those who think we're doing better than America - think again - the deaths per million of population for the US currently is 168 - we're 220.

Seanergy

Are you waering a Mask even though mask wearing is not recommended by the HSE?

TheValeyard

Yes, it's black, has holes for the eyes and a zip for the mouth.