The examples the company cited include "promoting a phony miracle cure for a serious illness, claiming the earth is flat, or making blatantly false claims about historic events like 9/11."
Cheerful Spring2 wrote: » Thats obvious lie.
King Mob wrote: » Yes but cheerful, we're not disputing the number. We're disputing the argument you are using based on that number. It's a very silly argument That argument comes from far right antisemetic holocaust deniers. You didn't come up with it.
Cheerful Spring2 wrote: » Thats obvious lie. This is screenshot i posted. You can see it's from holocaust memorial museum Two thirds of 9.5 million dead= close to 6 million.
Dohnjoe wrote: » Cheerful, it's very obvious most of your information about the Holocaust is coming from holocaust denial sites and similar, you have been using many of their talking points here and in previous threads This is why I am suggesting you read proper sources so you can look at the situation properly
Cheerful Spring2 wrote: » Why you being deceptive about the numbers? 9.5 million is the accepted Jewish population stat? Why you lying and now claiming there neo Nazi references? I posted a screenshot belonging Holocaust Jewish website, that how i found, the 9.5 million number. 3.5 million left in Europe after the war. You left with 6 milllion who disappeared since 1933. Fact is 6 millon are described as having died during the holocaust period (1941 to 1945) Don’t let facts bother you here.
Cheerful Spring2 wrote: » Why you being deceptive about the numbers?
Cheerful Spring2 wrote: » Why you lying and now claiming there neo Nazi references?
Cheerful Spring2 wrote: » Fact is 6 millon are described as having died during the holocaust period (1941 to 1945)
King Mob wrote: » This isn't what real historians claim. You are misrepresenting things again. And another lie. There are two camps. Real historians who use actual research. And holocaust deniers. The vast majority of the arguments you used come from these far right groups and spokespeople. You have sourced literal neo nazis as references. If you don't believe that it's a Jewish hoax, why do you believe ALL historians disagree with your beliefs? Are they all just wrong and you are a better historian? You've continually dodged this question and I believe this is because you do believe it is a Jewish lead hoax.
Cheerful Spring2 wrote: » The new sources for information have not pored over the actual evidence
My view was not achievable Nazi regime rounded up and caught 6 million Jews after 1933 and exterminated them all by shootings and gassing This is my view,
Cheerful Spring2 wrote: » My view was not achievable Nazi regime rounded up and caught 6 million Jews after 1933 and exterminated them all by shootings and gassing
Cheerful Spring2 wrote: » when there no records and documentation left behind by the Nazi regime.
Cheerful Spring2 wrote: » Many Assumptions are made all six million died ( due to the holocaust) and others disagree- . I am in second camp and if that’s holocaust denial so be it!
Cheerful Spring2 wrote: » The dilemma. Many far right right groups claim no Jewish people were murdered and was a Jewish hoax. Some believe only few hundred thousand died. Revision is fine as long as you respect the experience and believe it happened and was not hoaxed by the Jewish people.
Dohnjoe wrote: » No, because new research over the decades has revealed more data and evidence than Reitlinger had at the time. There were various estimates. In 1944, German command talked about 5 million Jews killed. Shortly after the surrender of Germany in 1945, a high ranking Nazi put the figure at 6 million. There were many estimates, some higher, some lower. They can, it's subjective. The German state started killing Jewish people from 1933. It started on an industrial level in the early 1940's. That's the most common period referred to. The Polish communist government made that claim, key historians did not support it, including a prominent Polish historian. In the early nineties the Polish conceded it was incorrect
Cheerful Spring2 wrote: » You have arrived at a conclusion his work outdated, and believe so, because of a timeline?
You’re forgetting here repeatedly is the six million number has not altered since WW2!
Jewish academics maintain the holocaust started in 1933 and onwards, then they need to provide a resolution to end this controversy.
The accepted chapter for the start of the extermination (holocaust) is the period 1941 to 1945.
Another forgotten aspect. Auschwitz concentration camp had 4 million casualties and not 1 million before 1991. Papers from 80s held 3 million Jews perished at the camp?. Where the two million extra Jews wrongly placed in six million figure?
Dohnjoe wrote: » Disclaimer: I am not expert or buff, I just have an interest in WW2 and have read/watched a fair bit of material on the Holocaust First and most importantly, if you have a genuine interest in the subject, you should be reading the whole book to get context, it doesn't make sense to leaf through a few pages. Reitlinger's info is considered quite outdated by this stage, there are modern books with more up to date info that you should be referencing (if you aren't into the denser history books, then one I have recently read is "Auschwitz; Nazi's and the 'Final Solution'" by Rees, which is very accessible and deals with the main camp complex) Secondly you are going too far back with information from Nuremberg, and the early Soviet figures, etc. It's creating this big mess in your mind over the subject. The Cold war was descending, there were practical difficulties for researchers to access sites, there was propaganda and so on. Modern information will do. Thirdly - Holocaust figures are broken down. Some count the early systematic murders and disappearances in Germany from 1933. Some start just after the outbreak of the war and other's start in the forties. Early killings were predominantly done by the Einsatzgruppen using a variety of methods. Camps became more prominent later, there were two types of camps: labour and extermination. Figures are mainly by camps (there were over 40,000 camps and ghettos). For example here are the current estimates. It's grim, but it's also important to note that there were many different ways people died in the Holocaust, for example, it wasn't uncommon for Jews and other groups to freeze or suffocate to death in the cattle carts they were transported in. Some entire trains were dead on arrival. For the camps themselves, likewise there many ways that people died, exposure, disease, suicide (in Treblinka it's estimated that at one point 15-20 SonderKommando killed themselves a night) As we drill down into details, some historians may include data that other historians don't. Some will use estimates where certain data is incomplete, whereas other historians will completely exclude estimates if the data isn't up to a certain level What this means is that there are many different ways of calculating figures. Time is also a key factor. New evidence comes to light all the time, which means that a record published in e.g. 1970, may not have as much complete data as a record published in e.g. 1990. So over time, and with all the historians and researchers, if we put all their estimates on a large scatter-plot, apart from some extremities, you'd see the majority put the figures of Jewish deaths at around 5.5 million to 6.2 million, or 6 million for short If you have questions about the finer details (for genuine reasons), then I would suggest the history forum. Some posters on here know a decent bit (off the top of my head Tony_Eh). Outside of this site there is the Axis military forums, Reddit (r/history or r/askahistorian), and many others. Be warned, if they detect you are trolling or being pedantic, you can be banned
Cheerful Spring2 wrote: » Yes, I read some pages of his book, last year.. free copies online. I had a glimpse again at his book. The near six million wiped out was the number the World Jewish Congress provided to the Nuremberg trial. He considers its overestimation because there was little trustworthy data available to affirm that six million number after the war He stresses an Anglo-American group inquiry regarding the problems of European Jews and Palestine claimed 5.8 million Jewish dead in 1946. There was a political outside influence angle of engagement to enlarge the number. Based on his own research, some claims they made about the missing European Jews are sound and other claims he says are false! He argued it was a sloppy way of determining Jews deaths, as they just placed it down as six million because that’s the amount of Jewish people missing from their former countries of residence! Plus he mentioned the Soviet Union information about Jewish deaths is suspect and can’t be depended on. He also thinks many of the Polish Jews retreated to the Soviet union- as far away as (Siberia) and many died from, natural illness, Typhus, hunger and winter, and war and many Jews got caught up and died during the battle of Stalingrad and separate assaults on Soviet Cities... They were unregistered survivors in a foreign country and forgotten.. These deaths laid at the door of the final solution incorrect. Polish numbers are most difficult to calculate because of the war yet he put it down at 2 million + He mentioned Emigration and other things, but i be here all day if i wrote up everything he said. I just took just one screenshot to show he calculated at the end.
Dohnjoe wrote: » There's no "big revelation", and it's not "see what I have" - it's basic history, you can open any textbook or reference book on this The first thing you need to do is stop thinking information like this is "personal" - it isn't. There's no tricks to any of this either, its straight-forward stuff. To start off with, you've made a change recently, to a slightly better viewpoint (albeit quite outdated), Reitlinger. Have you read his book "The Final Solution"? If not, that's alright, but do you know how he put those estimates (4.2 to 4.5 million) together? He's fundamentally doing it the same way modern historians are.
Cheerful Spring2 wrote: » You be posting that for the last hour. Just go ahead with the big revelation and we see what you have.
Cheerful Spring2 wrote: » You can't do basic math and think six million Jews lived in a cocoon for 8 years, just silliness.
King Mob wrote: » Yes. 70 years ago. But it does make sense. It's the number accepted by most historians. You just don't understand and don't want to understand because you are a holocaust denier. Lol jesus...:rolleyes:
Cheerful Spring2 wrote: » Jewish scholars already disagree about the numbers. Remember i posted a prominent one who wrote about it and he believes the true number about 4.2 to 4.5 million. That's 1.7 million less than what's reported today. That's a big drop-off.
Cheerful Spring2 wrote: » Six million doesn't make any sense whatsoever.
Cheerful Spring2 wrote: » Maybe 3 million is too low? 4 million is not awful, gives room for others things to have occurred.
Dohnjoe wrote: » It's a simple question Are you willing to be rational and engage normally? If yes, then I will explain Holocaust figures and basic background of it to you
Cheerful Spring2 wrote: » I not though.
King Mob wrote: » But again, if you believe that your research (Which involves one document and one bit of basic math) is so air tight, go publish it in a historical journal. Go tell the trained historians at the various holocaust museums to update their numbers.
Cheerful Spring2 wrote: » I not though. QuoteThe Holocaust, also known as the Shoah, was the World War II genocide of the European Jews. Between 1941 and 1945, across German-occupied Europe, Nazi Germany and its collaborators systematically murdered some six million Jews, around two-thirds of Europe's Jewish population The claim is 6 million were not affected by anything else going on in the world between 1933 to 41, and nazis rounded up the 6 million and murdered them. By any stretch of the imagination doesn't add up.
Dohnjoe wrote: » Yes I do You are being completely irrational. When you are willing to actually listen (read) what someone has to say, let me know It's pretty straightforward, most people can manage it.
Cheerful Spring2 wrote: » That not the claim Kingmob. The claim is 6 million were killed during the holocaust (a period from 1941 to 1945)
Cheerful Spring2 wrote: » Nothing stopping you from replying. You don't need me to tell you to go ahead.
King Mob wrote: » Yes. That is correct. 6 million Jewish people were killed by the Nazis. It's not though. You're misrepresenting things again.
Cheerful Spring2 wrote: » 9.5- 3.5= 6 million.
Cheerful Spring2 wrote: » It is your claim but just will not admit it.
Dohnjoe wrote: » For the third time, I am willing to explain. But you have to engage normally and be reasonable Okay?
Cheerful Spring2 wrote: » How is false claim Dohnjoe? There was 9.5 Jewish people in Europe and Soviet union in 1933. Do you think there are missing millions?
Dohnjoe wrote: » That's not the view Why do you keep making this false claim? It's like you are deliberately sabotaging any semblance of a debate here in order to go around in circles of your own making As mentioned, if you want this explained to you, I am willing to explain, as long as you are willing to engage normally and reasonably.
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