JimmyVik wrote: » Its always like a bear pit. Every Irish person is more than willing to hand the pain and suffering to someone else when times get hard. Look around, first thing in a crisis is always what other fuccer is going to pay for this who isnt me. Let me attack them.
Deleted User wrote: » Every crisis the PS get turned on. The last crisis the nurses took a hammering too from the public and independent news and media.
tastyt wrote: » This is because we have the usual nonsense from guards and nurses about earning 45k after 15 years or some other lies. They have a tough job but people are sick of them giving their wages without all their allowances which are all guaranteed and plenty of scope for overtime. Their basic salary probably accounts for 2/3 of the salary for public servants on 24 shift. Why can’t they just be honest about their take home pay and have an open conversation about it? Because it’s a lot more than they claim it is that’s why. Good opportunity for them to buy in the next few months though and I would never begrudge them a good standard of living , tough jobs, but well paid .
The_Conductor wrote: » 550k? Fecking hell. Its a reasonable 1970s council house- but with a bad aspect (the back garden is easterly facing ffs). Property features: Electric Fire in Living Room........ Like what? If you actually click through- it does look nice- but 550k? Its not even 100m2- and the family selling have obviously outgrown it- how long before someone else would outgrow it? Utterly ridiculous price.
[Deleted User] wrote: » Every crisis the PS get turned on. The last crisis the nurses took a hammering too from the public and independent news and media.
Marius34 wrote: » I was refering to: "As of 2019 our personal debt levels were at 137 billion making your 120k in savings null and void with 17 billion still left to service" Many people don't keep their wealth in bank in savings. Especially wealthy. Person 1: Has 1000 Euro in account, no loan and no investment. Based on this person is in +1000 Eur Person 2: Bought a house many years ago with 100.000 Eur to pay in mortgage, he has car, other valuables, and 200.000 Eur "savings" put investment funds, and only 10.000 Euro in their account. In your calculation this persons finance is null and void, with 90.000 still left to service. In my personal case. 1 Year after I graduated I had study loan, I had "savings" x times more than a study loan, which i invested in the stocks, I didn't kept much of money in my bank account, in your case it would mean I was in negative. Note, 137 Billion is not just mortgage, it's a total household debt, regardless of the type. It still big number which is mainly due 2008 crisis. But The Irish household savings and wealth is relatively high, comparing to other countries.
Cuddlesworth wrote: » That was stopped late 90's right? That goes back far longer than 2 decades. Also legacy staff on defined benefits is a legacy problem in a lot of countries and even in private companies. Banks are controlled by the Central Bank of Ireland, part of the European banking system. There was a clear regulation failure there, specifically in Ireland but that's not the fault of the Irish government entirely. The only real trap is when you factor cost of accomodation into account, then social can in specific circumstances be significantly better. But housing is a complicated matter. I don't exactly remember the government at the time being happy about the position they were forced into by the unions.
fliball123 wrote: » How is it we have 120 billion in banks in savings and 137billion of personal debt..Whats wrong and misleading about it?
Hubertj wrote: » i agree with these points..... PS productivity is a big issue for me.... jobs for life, guaranteed pensions, incremental pay increases not connected to performance etc...... something has to give there
The_Conductor wrote: » The HSE *are* the bulk of the public sector in Ireland- this includes all the nurses etc who we're all cheering on at the moment. The salary for a staff nurse after 12 years- is 45k (salary scales here, compliments of the INMO). This is roughly 2k below the mean salary of full time employees in Ireland (link here- factchecked by the Journal) During the last downturn- the private sector addressed it by laying off people, but not cutting salaries, the public sector cut salaries (by an average of 22%) rather than laying off people. Benchmarking was conducted roughly 15 years ago- because the public sector was unable to attract suitably qualified people in comparison with salaries being offered in the private sector. You can argue whether or not the public and the private sector should be competing for the same people- however, in the context of the HSE- the result has been large numbers of contract employees- nurses, doctors and others, because the salary scales have been insufficient to attract suitable candidates otherwise. The standard pension for the public sector is now 1/2 average career earnings reduced by whatever the COAP rate is, earned at the rate of 2/80s per annum over a 40 year period, plus a lumpsum of 1.5 times final salay, paid for in part by pension deductions, in addition of PRSI etc, of between 7 and 15% The public sector is by no means as lucrative as people imagine it to be- and the one little point about the pension entitlement for an average public sector employee that the media habitually neglect to mention- is that its reduced by the rate of the contributory old age pension (aka clerical staff on low salaries don't get a public sector pension on the first 24k of their salary- they get a COAP or NCOAP- same as anyone else). According to Publicjobs.ie over half of all graduates recruited in the public sector in 2018 quit their public sector appointments within their first 6 months of employ in the public sector............ People have a hatred of the public sector (for a variety of reasons, however, the manner in which it is painted in the media and seldom corrected doesn't help). The average size of the public sector in the OECD is 20.9% of the workforce. In Ireland its 18.1% (which coincidentally is the same percentage as in both Portugal and Spain). In the UK its 20.6%. In a country like France its as high as 25.8% We are going to have to redesign our country from the bottom up, going forwards. Its perhaps a unique opportunity to look at our workforce, both public and private sector- and decide what really matters for all of us- and how we are going to achieve those goals. We are already making it impossible to financially recompense people- our taxation rates are too high on too low income levels. Perhaps the addition of a sizable chunk of new bank holidays might temper this somewhat? One massive thing that we seem to have discovered we were capable of doing in the last few weeks- is remote working. Perhaps we can incorporate a much increased element of remote working in our futures? We do have to come up with a plan of action on how to redesign our society going forwards- however, I don't think that a public sector versus a private sector debate is helpful in that context- both public and private sectors are going to have a lot of heavy lifting to do.
Hulk Hands wrote: » I don't think this is true. Pubs and restaurants in Dublin (not including tourist areas) were reasonably full every night of the week prior to this. Galway was similar. The vast majority of the clientele is middle class workers. Coffee Shops never don't have a queue and deliveroo/just eat numbers are off the scale, even despite a backlash on fast food. I'd say well over half of middle class workers have a gym membership. While I think it's logical for property prices to fall, i'm cautious that it could be a slow process. Any person I know who was looking to buy in the short to medium term, is now WFH and having savings grow. Very easy for a couple earning a combined 100k to save 25k in this 6 month period. While jobs may not be certain into the future, I think there'll be plenty come the end of this year willing to take the chance with a decent deposit saved. Tech type jobs won't seem immediate risky to banks either. But obviously the market must correct itself in time, just might take a bit
Marius34 wrote: » That's totally wrong and very misleading statement.
The_Conductor wrote: » I know we haven't bought any take-away or celebrated any of 4 birthdays in our house here over the last 5-6 weeks. We will probably have a big bash for everyone together when this madness dies down- a nice meal out perhaps- but thats it- we don't go to the pub or cafés under normal circumstances, we don't smoke, we don't have Sky TV, gym memberships or other expenditure. Lots of middleclass workers- had hollowed out their spending over the past decade, as it was the only financially prudent thing to do. There may be some people who were getting lots of take-out, coffees, meals out etc- but that cohort are not reflective of what the majority of people were doing.
Cuddlesworth wrote: » Banks are controlled by the Central Bank of Ireland, part of the European banking system. There was a clear regulation failure there, specifically in Ireland but that's not the fault of the Irish government entirely.
fliball123 wrote: » PS unrealistic pensions
fliball123 wrote: » Banking Scandal
fliball123 wrote: » Social Welfare traps
fliball123 wrote: » PS bench marking
fliball123 wrote: » And what is the amount of debt the Irish people have, without going into personal debt the government have a 200 billion debt to service where are they getting that money ?? Answer = the tax payer... The middle cant take any more the pip has been squeaking for the last 10 years since the last recession ..and just to put your comment into some perspective, some people may have 50k in their bank account but owe 250k on a mortgage, 10k on a car 5k on a credit card. Some people like to live in the moment and pay for it later but the 120bn you spout has to be equated against current debt levels as well. As of 2019 our personal debt levels were at 137 billion making your 120k in savings null and void with 17 billion still left to servicehttps://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/fall-in-irish-household-debt-ratio-flatters-to-deceive-1.3928491
Assetbacked wrote: » I don't think it's outrageous to think the EU or at least the Euro gets abandoned by some participants, with the pandemic being the straw that breaks the camel's back.
Zenify wrote: I suppose it's all relevant to what you consider devastating. I would have said the financial crises of 2008 was devastating and the IMF said this will be worse. That's where I'm coming from with this.
Augeo wrote: The last pension levy was a grim measure but it was a drop in the ocean compared to the relief on money goes in and the tax free growth.
Hubertj wrote: im not disputing your comments about so many of the squeezed middle living pay cheque to pay cheque
fliball123 wrote: » Well they are the unfortunate figures the middle has been on the hook for a lot of the past ills over the last 2 decades and its not just the rich who were pandered to, but also the "don't want to work brigade" and every other cohort that has been pandered to by government over the last 2 decades. Just off the top of my head the top 4 decisions by governments over the last 2 decades that has helped to build up a 200 billion debt are as follows. PS unrealistic pensions Banking Scandal Social Welfare traps PS bench marking Not having a go at ps by the way its not their fault Bertie made a b0ll0x of it.
Hubertj wrote: » thanks for answering the question - i was only asking and not disputing or questioning the validity of the comment. Trying to educate myself.
fliball123 wrote: » And what is the amount of debt the Irish people have, without going into personal debt the government have a 200 billion debt to service where are they getting that money ?? Answer = the tax payer... The middle cant take any more the pip has been squeaking for the last 10 years since the last recession ..and just to put your comment into some perspective, some people may have 50k in their bank account but owe 250k on a mortgage, 10k on a car 5k on a credit card. Some people like to live in the moment and pay for it later but the 120bn you spout has to be equated against current debt levels as well
Hubertj wrote: » im not disputing your comments about so many of the squeezed middle living pay cheque to pay cheque as i don't take a keen interest in these topics but what about the volume of restaurants, coffee shops, gyms and other lifestyle businesses thriving? There seems to be a lot of disposable income out there.... who owns the €120bn odd in savings held by Irish banks? Is it older generation?
The_Conductor wrote: » I know we haven't bought any take-away or celebrated any of 4 birthdays in our house here over the last 5-6 weeks. We will probably have a big bash for everyone together when this madness dies down- a nice meal out perhaps- but thats it- we don't go to the pub or cafés under normal circumstances, we don't smoke, we don't have Sky TV, gym memberships or other expenditure. Lots of middleclass workers- had hollowed out their spending over the past decade, as it was the only financially prudent thing to do. There may be some people who were getting lots of take-out, coffees, meals out etc- but that cohort are not reflective of what the majority of people were doing. We've taken up lots of little niche things to keep us busy during the lockdown- be it gardening, baking or whatever. Those bits and bods will most probably end up on the scrap heap- but it doesn't mean that they're going to translate into expensive social outings in their stead. The Irish workers were under an incredible tax burden- *before* any of this manure hit the fan. Any heavy lifting or expectation that Irish workers are going to magic up a recovery when this is over- will have to be tempered by the simple fact- most people were living from paycheck to paycheck- and don't have the means to splurge- and the prospect of tighter finances isn't exactly an invitation for people to go wild.
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