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Relaxation of restrictions

Red Alert

Simon Harris curiously made a comment that there was a limit to how long people could put up with extreme level of restrictions as we currently have. Already we’re seeing in Italy that people are starting to get restless. So two big questions:

1) on Easter Sunday, do you think there will be further restrictions, no change with just an extension or some relaxation?

2) what will be the first thing rolled back?

My own guess would be: extension for at least 1 week. Then to allow some businesses like DIY shops to reopen, perhaps allow gatherings of 2/3 people, maybe a token increase on 2km.

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Idbatterim

Two people under the age of 34 have died from this virus in Ireland - but you don't see that getting any media attention....

right and will be able to claim corona virus as the cause of death for suicides , sparked by this situation, if it goes on much longer?

I linked to an article in uk pages back, with big spike in suicides in the last year, god knows what this year is going to be like!

Idbatterim

FloatingVoter wrote: »

I was in a nursing home / rehab clinic out in Clontarf three years ago recovering from a broken hip. I'm 45 now and was by no means the youngest inmate. It was more like a luxury spa (and very good they were too) but I can easily see how the virus would spread in that sort of loose environment.

interesting, didnt know they would put people in rehab there! With the rapid testing that is being talked about, how rapid are the results going to be?

Ace2007

Idbatterim wrote: »

I believe many of those getting sick in nursing homes, arent being admitted to hospital. No at mid thirties, I am not prepared to take one for the team. I am just pointing out, that many dying from this, particularly if in nursing homes, were already in **** positions maybe with dementia or god knows what, before this **** hit

So by your logic - who are we treating in hospitals - who are getting admitted to ICU. 22% of all cases have ended up in hospital - 49% of all hospital cases have been people less than 65.

Just because someone is in a nursing home, doesn't mean they are in bad positions, it's because situations at home change, or no one will look after them, or they aren't able to live independently.

The more read boards, the more you see some sides of people, it's basically someone who is 80 is "old" - regardless the fact 1 in 5 20 year old are expected to live to 100. Someone in a nursing home is just going their to die.
People really need to understand society and not just think of their own surroundings.

Two people under the age of 34 have died from this virus in Ireland - but you don't see that getting any media attention....

FloatingVoter

Idbatterim wrote: »

I believe many of those getting sick in nursing homes, arent being admitted to hospital. No at mid thirties, I am not prepared to take one for the team. I am just pointing out, that many dying from this, particularly if in nursing homes, were already in **** positions maybe with dementia or god knows what, before this **** hit

I was in a nursing home / rehab clinic out in Clontarf three years ago recovering from a broken hip. I'm 45 now and was by no means the youngest inmate. It was more like a luxury spa (and very good they were too) but I can easily see how the virus would spread in that sort of loose environment.

growleaves

This might sound harsh, but isnt it fair to say, that with the ages of many dying and the underlying conditions, that many would die in the relatively short term any way?

That's been admitted in the last few days by Dr. Deborah Birx, Coronavirus Response Coordinator for the White House, and Dr. Jenny Harries, the Deputy Chief Medical Officer of the UK.

Dr. Harries said: 'These are Covid-associated deaths, they are all sad events, they would not all be a death as a result of Covid.' Still no numbers on how many deaths were caused by the virus.

Thelonious Monk

Well if Ciara Kelly says we need to lift restrictions what are we waiting for?

Idbatterim

Ace2007 wrote: »

No we don't know the mean, we only know the median which doesn't give the full picture, but that wont' stop people saying this virus only affects the very old.

nobody is saying it only effects the old, but the likelihood of dying if younger, with no underlying condition, is very very slim...

Idbatterim

Ace2007 wrote: »

Why do you care so much about people dying?

Do you understand that if hospitals are over run, then even "healthy" people who get this virus will die, as they won't get treatment.

I really don't get how Ireland is considered a well educated country, when so many people just think well only old people will die, therefore lets get back to work, and don't for a second think about the sick in hospital, and who actually cares for them if we run out of beds/staff.

On dark side of things, at some point your going to die - are you happy to "take one for the team" now?

I believe many of those getting sick in nursing homes, arent being admitted to hospital. No at mid thirties, I am not prepared to take one for the team. I am just pointing out, that many dying from this, particularly if in nursing homes, were already in **** positions maybe with dementia or god knows what, before this **** hit

Ace2007

Idbatterim wrote: »

isnt it the mean age we know and its pretty old, 80 I think...

No we don't know the mean, we only know the median which doesn't give the full picture, but that wont' stop people saying this virus only affects the very old.

FloatingVoter

Idbatterim wrote: »

isnt it the mean age we know and its pretty old, 80 I think...

Nope, it's the median age. Explained throughout the thread.

Idbatterim

FloatingVoter wrote: »

We don't know their ages.

isnt it the mean age we know and its pretty old, 80 I think...

Ace2007

Idbatterim wrote: »

This might sound harsh, but isnt it fair to say, that with the ages of many dying and the underlying conditions, that many would die in the relatively short term any way?

Why do you care so much about people dying?

Do you understand that if hospitals are over run, then even "healthy" people who get this virus will die, as they won't get treatment.

I really don't get how Ireland is considered a well educated country, when so many people just think well only old people will die, therefore lets get back to work, and don't for a second think about the sick in hospital, and who actually cares for them if we run out of beds/staff.

On dark side of things, at some point your going to die - are you happy to "take one for the team" now?

alwald

lord quackinton wrote: »

what are the mean and median ages of people dead from corona virus?
the rest of your post comes from you heart and so must be discounted
what is needed now are hard decisions made by people with their heads.
we must make decisions that protect all of society not the few.
we cannot expect young men and women who very likely wont even get the virus and if they did will recover in their homes be asked to give up plans for their future.
let people decide - you want to go back to work, school, living and really go to war with this virus then do it
or you can decide to hide away yourself in the hope we get a vaccine soon, then you do that.

pick a side and then get out of the way of the other side.

Most of your posts, which pretty much have the same content, put a smile on my face.
There is no such thing as pick a side or do what you want. There is a law that applies to all regardless if we agree or not with it.

FloatingVoter

Idbatterim wrote: »

This might sound harsh, but isnt it fair to say, that with the ages of many dying and the underlying conditions, that many would die in the relatively short term any way?

We don't know their ages.

Idbatterim

This might sound harsh, but isnt it fair to say, that with the ages of many dying and the underlying conditions, that many would die in the relatively short term any way?

Ace2007

lord quackinton wrote: »

what are the mean and median ages of people dead from corona virus?
the rest of your post comes from you heart and so must be discounted
what is needed now are hard decisions made by people with their heads.
we must make decisions that protect all of society not the few.
we cannot expect young men and women who very likely wont even get the virus and if they did will recover in their homes be asked to give up plans for their future.
let people decide - you want to go back to work, school, living and really go to war with this virus then do it
or you can decide to hide away yourself in the hope we get a vaccine soon, then you do that.

pick a side and then get out of the way of the other side.

Comes from the heart? What are you talking about - i gave you the figures that show young people are ended up in hospital and ICU and then you come out with a comment "young men and women who very likely wont even get the virus and if they did will recover in their homes"

We aren't provided with the mean, only the median which has been explain hundreds of times on here, and it doesn't really tell us much overall.

Ok let's say john wants to go back to School, but his teachers don't want to risk their lives - what happens then?

It's laughable your approach - if you want to go back you can. So you could end up with health and safety issues - but let's not think about them?

makeorbrake

FloatingVoter wrote: »

Once you enjoy paying €5000 for a loaf of bread (to pay for the flour and the baker who made it). Monopoly money. Or a return to the barter system- which given most of us have no tradeable skills leaves us ****ed.

Time for gold, silver and hard money.

BoatMad wrote: »

That only happens if you carry it too far , ie you let inflation get out of control , but currently deflation is the risk not inflation , moderate inflation is better
It can be done in a controlled way

We don't know that for sure. Quantitative Easing has been one ongoing mega experiment that nobody knows the full repercussions of. Sure, central banks managed to keep inflation down after that first raft of QE in the wake of the 2008 financial crisis. However, we are now into much bigger amounts. Furthermore, there are fewer monetary measures open to central banks as they had already floored interest rates from back then.

It remains to be seen if they can keep inflation under control. It may be that they get to kick the can down the road and there's no day of reckoning for a decade - but sooner or later, this will have to be paid for. There's no such thing as free money. If that wasn't true, then we could just tell Revenue to print off whatever we owe them each year.

Blueshoe wrote: »

It's to keep the economy moving basically. People shouldn't save the money in the bank. Just spend it.

It can sometimes be a case of unintended consequences. In times past the Japanese tried helicopter money in order to get things moving not realising that the outcome was that people hoarded/saved it rather than spent it.

niallo27

skallywag wrote: »

What is your yarkstick here though?

Would you say that 33 deaths per day is not bad, because the rate in, say, the UK, is nearly 1000 per day?

If the rate in the UK was, say, 10,000 per day, would that then mean that 300 per day for Ireland would not be horrific?

Or, if you extrapolate the 33 per day over a month, and it becomes 1000 or more per month, is that still 'not too bad' ?

The severity with which you class this current situation depends on the reference point you take. Some in the US are currently arguing that 2000 deaths per day is 'a good number'.

What would you consider an acceptable amount of deaths per day to be, by acceptable I mean one where you would think, **** it could be a lot worse.

niallo27

ShineOn7 wrote: »

I posted this elsewhere, I'll repeat it here because people's lack of common sense in all this is quite something

The world's economy is fúcked. So it won't matter if Ireland is "up and running" again in two months because by then America will be riddled with this, the Fed will give up trying to prop up the stock market artificially and we'll have 2008 type recession except times 10

Remember the last downturn? Well that's coming again except it's going to be on steroids

I'm very much a glass half full person but we need to be more pragmatic about this. People thinking that things will be back to normal by June need to wake up

2-4 years of economic upheaval is coming globally, not just to Ireland

Your not a glass half full person if you believe this, believe me your not.

lord quackinton

Ace2007 wrote: »

It's very easy to say Oh i have elderly family and friends and then go on about worrying about the people who will be unemployed. You do realize that young people are dying from this virus?? 2 people under the age of 34 have died in Ireland - but you don't see that been broadcast all over the media?.

Approx 35% of all case admitted to ICU were people under the age of 54. Another 28% people in the range 55-64. So basically two thirds of ICU beds have been taken by people under age 65. 22% of all confirmed cases in Ireland have been hospitalized.

But despite this, you want more people to go to work. It will get to the stage that it won't be your elderly family and friends that will be at risk, it may be your siblings or your children, because the fact they may have a high % chance of living if they get the treatment wont' matter as there won't be any beds available, because they will be full of other young people.

May i ask why you haven't touched all the isolation, loneliness that this will cause people who are cocooing? People who will have lived through wars and poverty that majority of Irish people wouldn't even think possible. We are like 5/6 weeks into this - and you want people to just go back to work.

what are the mean and median ages of people dead from corona virus?
the rest of your post comes from you heart and so must be discounted
what is needed now are hard decisions made by people with their heads.
we must make decisions that protect all of society not the few.
we cannot expect young men and women who very likely wont even get the virus and if they did will recover in their homes be asked to give up plans for their future.
let people decide - you want to go back to work, school, living and really go to war with this virus then do it
or you can decide to hide away yourself in the hope we get a vaccine soon, then you do that.

pick a side and then get out of the way of the other side.

skallywag

Jenbach110 wrote: »

But its not realistically, we need to apply rationalisation to the numbers.

What is your yarkstick here though?

Would you say that 33 deaths per day is not bad, because the rate in, say, the UK, is nearly 1000 per day?

If the rate in the UK was, say, 10,000 per day, would that then mean that 300 per day for Ireland would not be horrific?

Or, if you extrapolate the 33 per day over a month, and it becomes 1000 or more per month, is that still 'not too bad' ?

The severity with which you class this current situation depends on the reference point you take. Some in the US are currently arguing that 2000 deaths per day is 'a good number'.

appledrop

KrustyUCC wrote: »

Ciara Kelly has a good article in the Indo today

"so keeping them until midnight on the May Bank Holiday is the right call.

But the lockdown cannot last too much longer than that, because if it does, the cure becomes worse than the disease. The economic fall out is too great and the job losses too high.

The knock-on effects on other non Covid-19 related aspects of people's mental and physical health means there is a tipping point where more people are harmed by lockdown than are saved"

She is spot on + she has had the virus and knows it's not a nice illness. I wonder have the government actually got advice from psychologists on the impact on peoples mental and physical health.

If we were in total lockdown + it meant that the virus went away it would be worth it but that's not going to happen. Of course we want to 'save' people from virus but not going to be possible in all cases + how many more people are we going to lose to mental health problems.

Very good article there in Irish Times a few weeks ago about over 70s who were staying at home. A lot of them lead very active life playing golf, meeting with there friends etc. From reading between the lines you get the impression that if total lockdown where they cant leave their house goes on for much long I'd say some of them would actually prefer to take their chances with the virus. We keep saying this will past but in some cases they have serious health conditions already so want to enjoy each day.

Nermal

ShineOn7 wrote: »

The world's economy is fúcked. So it won't matter if Ireland is "up and running" again in two months

A) opening the domestic economy is still better than following the current course, even if we’re the only ones to do so

when a poster says ‘we’ need to go back to work, he may be referring to our trading partners as well

Jenbach110

skallywag wrote: »

You are falling into the 'not a bad number' trap though. 33 deaths in a one day period is horrific.

But its not realistically, we need to apply rationalisation to the numbers.

citysights

Cork Boy 53 wrote: »

Does anyone else think this comment reads like something Donald Trump would come out with?

Cheap shot, it’s the truth this is a beautiful island.

Cork Boy 53

citysights wrote: »

Lots and lots of people are worried but surely we must have some positivity too. He paints a very bleak picture, we’ve made progress here, we’ve a beautiful well developed island here and loads of really really good people. Fingers crossed and trying to keep the best side out.

Does anyone else think this comment reads like something Donald Trump would come out with?

Ace2007

lord quackinton wrote: »

I don’t want people to die from this virus and I have elderly family and friends
But I worry more for the thousands of people who will be unemployed and on the dole and the desperation and depression that will follow
I want to open this economy to save as many jobs as possible while accepting we will lose many jobs
I am not here saying my way is easy but i will not BS anyone - I have lived through poverty and witnessed the damage it causes , drug drink gambling addictions, children going hungry-
Let those who want to work go back
To work

It's very easy to say Oh i have elderly family and friends and then go on about worrying about the people who will be unemployed. You do realize that young people are dying from this virus?? 2 people under the age of 34 have died in Ireland - but you don't see that been broadcast all over the media?.

Approx 35% of all case admitted to ICU were people under the age of 54. Another 28% people in the range 55-64. So basically two thirds of ICU beds have been taken by people under age 65. 22% of all confirmed cases in Ireland have been hospitalized.

But despite this, you want more people to go to work. It will get to the stage that it won't be your elderly family and friends that will be at risk, it may be your siblings or your children, because the fact they may have a high % chance of living if they get the treatment wont' matter as there won't be any beds available, because they will be full of other young people.

May i ask why you haven't touched all the isolation, loneliness that this will cause people who are cocooing? People who will have lived through wars and poverty that majority of Irish people wouldn't even think possible. We are like 5/6 weeks into this - and you want people to just go back to work.

ShineOn7

lord quackinton wrote: »

Those who back this indefinite lockdown
How are you coping with what faces the economy
Are you not worried about your job and you children’s future
I need to know more about posters so I can understand there reasoning

Can I ask what is your personal situation
Before lockdown were you working in private sector, a student, on benefits, a public sector employee, receiving a pension, a renter, a mortgage holder, where you live

I work in finance, live in rural tipp, bought my home outright with money I earned working in Australia in mining,
We are still working and my job is safe but I expect to be told to take a 20% pay cut next month
And in December I expect government to raise taxes across the board and to slash public expenditure
The effects will be brutal and that is why we need to open immediately
The results of 2008 in my local town Were harrowing with many unemployed and suicides jumped but it took 3 years for me to accept that the main result of 2008 was rural Ireland took one hell of a beating and government did not care
The longer the lockdown lasts the very real chance What wealth is left in small towns and villages will disappear forever.
Instead of 10,000 or 20,000 dead nationally you will have many villages and towns turned into wastelands and the results of that will be with us for many years to come

We must open up fully For the good of the nation

I posted this elsewhere, I'll repeat it here because people's lack of common sense in all this is quite something

The world's economy is fúcked. So it won't matter if Ireland is "up and running" again in two months because by then America will be riddled with this, the Fed will give up trying to prop up the stock market artificially and we'll have 2008 type recession except times 10

Remember the last downturn? Well that's coming again except it's going to be on steroids

I'm very much a glass half full person but we need to be more pragmatic about this. People thinking that things will be back to normal by June need to wake up

2-4 years of economic upheaval is coming globally, not just to Ireland

mouldybiscuits

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Getting on top of the virus and managing our ICU admissions is still priority for me, absolutely, but I don't know how well I could mentally endure the past month's isolation if it were to carry on the same for another 6-18 months.

You're absolutely not alone in that regard, there are a lot of people struggling with the situation. But we have to think of the bigger picture as like you said getting on top of the virus is our priority. Us mentally suffering for months is preventing other people from dying and families from grieving. We just have to try and get on as best we can because other people's lives are at stake and it's completely worth months of mental torture to save lives.

citysights

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I understand what you're saying and agree.

However having a "beautiful well developed country and loads of really really good people" means absolutely nothing if people can't pay their mortgages. It means nothing if there is no tourism and the Wild Atlantic Way which support many of those tourism industries is shut down. It means nothing if business, factories, SMEs never open up again. It means nothing if people cannot buy or sell houses. The list goes on and on.

I know what your saying Maggie and completely agree, we can’t put our heads in the sand and at the same time choosing optimism ( or trying to ) can’t be the worst thing . It’s not being blind it’s just that going down a dark tunnel of despair and feeling we’ve no hope means we’d all just give up, I’m not talking about the poster who posted the Eddie Hobbs article but more like all of us in general. I’m very upset also, even listened to some soothing music a while back just to remind myself of happier times and the fact that the human spirit can be healed and uplifted.So just trying to keep up the faith or whatever they say.