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Working Class

[Deleted User]

I've been seeing this term coming up a lot lately from the SF, or housing related threads, and I'm a bit confused as to who in Ireland would be considered working class?

Is it a matter of being born into a working class family, and thus you're working class forever, regardless of your income and educational qualifications? Or does having a degree and a professional job move you into middle class?

Is working class a standard of living where your salary is lower than the average? Or the type of work, like working in a supermarket, or a cafe?

Like, I'm from what's considered a middle class family, my parents both being teachers, but my income is nowhere close to what they achieved while they were working. I do own a house, but the mortgage guarantees that my lifestyle is rather minimal (should I live in my house and stay in Ireland). I wouldn't consider myself to be working class, as such, but I do work, and I'm nowhere close to being secure/comfortable financially speaking.

So... What is working class to you, and could you define the limits? Not just a one liner, but actually spell out whether it's permanent, dependent on income, education, etc. How does someone move from working class into Middle class, and also move from middle class into working class?

Cheers.

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Rodin

anewme wrote: »

I'm talking about the contributory level.

I still think the rest is means tested.

And if you've no means (because you claimed all your life for example) it's almost 500euro a week for a pensioner couple + state benefits

anewme

Rodin wrote: »

And if you've no means (because you claimed all your life for example) it's almost 500euro a week for a pensioner couple + state benefits

Fuel allowance is means tested

Fuel Allowance is a means-tested payment. If you are getting a non-contributory social welfare payment, you are accepted as satisfying the means test.

So those who have paid in are means tested, what rubbish.

ILoveYourVibes

this thread has me confused some of you say people on welfare are millionaires some of you say you are not sure

Rodin

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

this thread has me confused some of you say people on welfare are millionaires some of you say you are not sure

The working poor who are entitled to nothing are the real victims/vulnerable in the country.

ILoveYourVibes

Rodin wrote: »

The working poor who are entitled to nothing are the real victims/vulnerable in the country.

they are equal victims ...

**** it tho ...i have decided im upper class either that or classless

El_Duderino 09

Jimbob1977 wrote: »

An interesting fact.... 5% of Irish adults are described as 'disabled' on the last census. In some areas of Limerick, 15% of people have declared themselves as disabled and incapable of work. Unless they have localised TB or rickets, this is a wind-up.

It might or might not be a wind up. People in poor areas have a different lifestyle to people in wealthier areas. Poorer people tend to smoke more for example. Poorer people tend to do more manual jobs. Take two populations of people who work in an office and people who work on building sites. Aged 55-65, which population do you expect to have more disabilities?

Worklessness contributes to conditions like depression. So between physical and mental health, the difference in disabilities might not be a wind up.

I once saw an analysis of life expectancy of people in different parts of Newcastle in North East England. The area of each stop on the Metro was analysed to see the difference in life expectancy. They found a difference of 8years between the leafy wealthy areas and the poorest areas. Maybe those people are dying as a wind up too but I suspect there are differences in health between wealthy and poor areas.

[Deleted User]

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

they are equal victims ...

**** it tho ...i have decided im upper class either that or classless

I suspect you're upper middle class. From the thread and other reading, I suspect we have the struggling class, the lower/upper middle class (which is most of the Irish population), and then the wealthy.

Potentially I'm upper middle class, but right now due to circumstances I'm lower middle class.

Working class is meaningless now considering the changes in society. Those who talk about working class are just making a moral/political statement, the same way that communists used the phrase "comrade". It intentionally evokes a range of emotions, and isn't an accurate description of anyone anymore.

Sky King

Working class! Middle class! What nonsense!

I laughed so hard at this thread my monocle fell into my snifter of cognac.

chrissb8

imme wrote: »

It is a redundant term.

Paddy O'Gorman from RTE radio was interviewing people outside the Social Welfare office before Christmas 2019.

One woman was saying how her children all wanted x,y,z items.

She said how she would be spending €1,000 on each child.

Oh, to be working class,
fancy phones and Canada Goose coats.

This. It's the acceptance of the lifestyle in some cases, that there will always be a source of income in the form of welfare. It just defeats the whole purpose of it, there is no excuse now in Ireland to not have work if you're able.

I remember watching a TV show on RTE a few years back about a family who couldn't afford Xmas. The mother was single and "couldn't find work". The mother was playing with her child in the sitting room and in the background....the latest skybox and a big massive smart tv only bought within the last year by the looks of the model.

Some people just don't know how to save and need all the latest crap for their kids, image or whatever. Then play the bleeding heart card. If you actually needed the money, even on welfare, you would make the necessary sacrifices to ensure there was some put to the side. Like most people do.

Hoop66

It's when you have your dinner in the middle of the day

[Deleted User]

SF means it as working but can't buy a house and has huge child care costs. The sort of people who work in retail, child care, transport and the like, low to medium paying jobs that keep the economy.

The nonworking is a relatively small issue overall and won't ever change.

topper75

Jimbob1977 wrote: »

An interesting fact.... 5% of Irish adults are described as 'disabled' on the last census. In some areas of Limerick, 15% of people have declared themselves as disabled and incapable of work. Unless they have localised TB or rickets, this is a wind-up.

A wind-up indeed. Possibly even an endemic culture.

Erstwhile Limerick poll-topper, W. O'Dea, is an absolute walking encyclopaedia of the Irish social welfare system.

His poll-topping crown was taken of late by a Mr. Quinlivan of Sinn Féin.

Go figure.

Graces7

Natasha Harsh Royalty wrote: »

Ireland maintains social security agreements with other countries to cover this kind of situation. If an emigrant has worked and paid social insurance in England but retires in Ireland, he can use his contributions to qualify for retirement benefits in Ireland. The same would apply to the reverse scenario.

Interesting. I came here from England and now my pension comes in, as sterling, from England, as does my Mobility Allowance . I made sure of this before I came.

Yes I qualify for various small allowances as the UK pension is less generous than the Irish and the cost of living is higher here.

This exchange was safeguarded before Brexit

Graces7

Cupatae wrote: »

I actually feel bad for genuine people on welfare, getting drilled and labelled constantly as scum leaches, bottom feeders looking for a free ride ect, imagine the depression of going into a post office and knowing everyone that sees you thinks your a low life leach.

As a society now we are ridiculously judgmental, its no wonder suicides are a constant thing now a days. People are ruthless "

Amen to this.

Graces7

maninasia wrote: »

It's not only that though is it.

Free travel, medical cards, subsidised phone, fuel, tv, numerous other benefits and discounts. Subsidised or free accommodation for those with no home.
Many pensioners are well off ,paid off their mortgsges and even get private pensions too.

Relatively young retirement age at 65 years old.

You should see what pensioners get across the water or in 95% plus of countries worldwide. Those people would be green with envy at the deal in Ireland.

phone subsidy = E2.50 week. Electricity allowance covers standing order and lighting. What "other benefits and discounts" please?

Graces7

Rodin wrote: »

And if you've no means (because you claimed all your life for example) it's almost 500euro a week for a pensioner couple + state benefits

Please itemise this? Thank you so very much.

Graces7

Jimbob1977 wrote: »

Rightly or wrongly.....

An interesting fact.... 5% of Irish adults are described as 'disabled' on the last census. In some areas of Limerick, 15% of people have declared themselves as disabled and incapable of work. Unless they have localised TB or rickets, this is a wind-up.

The census includes old people?

There are many folk who are disabled in some way including mental illness. So that figure is understandable . Unless a large number of doctors are in error? Certification being needed.

Ush1

Your name is on the building, your office, your desk or your shirt.

railer201

A stereotypical example would be a labourer or tradesperson - carpenter, bricky, plumber etc.,- living in a local authority house, though could be private too.

Reads the red tops. Sporting interests, likely to be football as in soccer or gaelic - big led tv and at least one holiday in the sun a year. A pint or two every night in the local. No savings account, money is for spending. As my next door neighbour keeps saying, I'm here for a good time, not for a long time !

joe40

railer201 wrote: »

A stereotypical example would be a labourer or tradesperson - carpenter, bricky, plumber etc.,- living in a local authority house, though could be private too.

Reads the red tops. Sporting interests, likely to be football as in soccer or gaelic - big led tv and at least one holiday in the sun a year. A pint or two every night in the local. No savings account, money is for spending. As my next door neighbour keeps saying, I'm here for a good time, not for a long time !

Tradespeople could be earning more than teachers (traditional middle class job) nowadays.
I hate these terms but I think working class refers to minimum wage jobs or close. The group of people I have most sympathy for, maybe not much better off than some people on welfare but still working hard.
I'm not against welfare there needs to be a safety and unfortunately a certain number will abuse it.

Bit cynical

dartboardio wrote: »

Very true . While obviously being in a hotel room with children and no home to go to would be horrible, unfortunately a lot (if not most) of these young single women with 2/3 kids are almost in the hotel room because they would rather wait 8 years on a housing list for a free house, instead of getting out and busting their bollocks working to pay for a house/apartment for them and their children, like the rest of the country have to do.

I've seen it! Perfectly able bodied single mother/father saying ' Poor me, I'm on the housing list 10 years and still no sign of a 3 bed house!!'

Yet they refuse to get out, work/save/pay rent like the rest. (and yes i know the rent is crazy but how do other people do it?... they educate themselves/move up the ladder, work their arse off)...

Realistically however, the salary required in order to pay for an apartment and childcare for 3 puts this out of reach for most single parents. If they have got themselves into this situation they are stuck until they get social housing.

lainey_d_123

I have always considered class to be based on far more than income, I suppose this is a more UK-centric view but I think it holds here too. In the US it seems to be that loads of money = upper class and that's not the case here.

One of my best friends is someone I'd definitely consider middle class - grew up in a biggish house in Sandymount (parents inherited it), went to a good school (but not fee paying), was brought up with an appreciation for art and literature as both parents were very well educated. She argues that she isn't middle class because the household income wasn't very high, but I think it's about much more than simple cash flow.

I would have had a similar household income but grew up on a rough estate, went to rough schools, parents not very educated, dinner usually frozen or tinned food or takeaways as parents working long hours, spent free time watching soaps or other rubbish on TV, no books, only tabloid newspapers.

It actually annoys me when my friend tries to claim we have similar backgrounds because in my eyes, she's had so much more. Her parents might have been cash poor but she still grew up in a lovely area, mixed with almost exclusively middle class people at school, learned all kinds of things and social skills which meant she fit in perfectly at college, while I spent the first year feeling like a fish out of water.

andekwarhola

While the spectre of generational unemploymed so beloved of people here does exist, it's far less prevalent than they presume.

fryup

you go to these so called "working class" housing estates and yet half the people are on the dole some of which never worked a day in their lives...so how can they call themselves working class?? seems a contradiction doesn't it?

andekwarhola

anewme wrote: »

The Gallaghers are rich, millionaires, not relatively wealthy.

To be fair, they're rich and live in wealthy areas now but theyre obviously going to identify themselves in terms of their formative years: their parents, schooling, friends and upbringing. When middle class people pretend to be street, they'd be ridiculed so why would they do the inverse just because they've made some money?

Their kids are obviously a different case.

andekwarhola

fryup wrote: »

you go to these so called "working class" housing estates and yet half the people are on the dole some of which never worked a day in their lives...so how can they call themselves working class?? seems a contradiction doesn't it?

The current rate of unemployment rate in Ireland is 4 or 5% which presumably includes the likes of people on genuine sickness benefit and home carers.

I'm presuming some of the massive hoard of incalcitrant lifelong unemployed to whom you refer just don't bother signing on?

Jim_Hodge

Graces7 wrote: »

phone subsidy = E2.50 week. Electricity allowance covers standing order and lighting. What "other benefits and discounts" please?

That's really not true about the electricity allowance. It's €35 per month, which covers an awful lot more than standing charge and lighting. It covers about 130units per month. Some Pensioners can cook by electric and still not use the full allowance.

Please itemise this? Thank you so very much.

(237x2)+2.5+9+fuel allowance and that's just the basic entitlements without free travel, TV licence etc. We're fairly well looked after considering we have our mortgages paid and families reared. And a lot better than many countries in Europe or the US.

I hope that helps.

Mad_maxx

Deleted User wrote: »

I have a shaking disorder which affects all of my body but in particular my hands and head. There are many jobs with physical requirements that I can't do, and there's other jobs like some parts of hospitality where my shaking makes some people uncomfortable and therefore I wouldn't get work easily. I could claim disability, but I don't... because there are plenty more jobs that I can do. I was raised by my parents to believe that I could conquer the obstacles that my disorder presented me with, and for the most part, I have.

I know a variety of people on disability benefits, and most of them need the benefit due to their physical/mental conditions, however, as in everything, there are some people who will use anything as an excuse to get a free ride.

i cant even walk properly due to a foot accident , i used to walk four miles daily for exercise , id be in agony if i walked a half a km now , however due to the fact that i have income streams ( pre injury ) which bring in 50 k per year , i dont qualify for any sort of disability

is this right ? , perhaps

as for the " working class " thing , some say its as much a way of thinking - outlook - interests as it is about income

a middle class person might perhaps be more into going to galleries , looking at art , despite earning modest amounts of money , wayne rooney is a multi millionaire , cant imagine he is into high culture that often ?

Jimbob1977

Graces7 wrote: »

The census includes old people?

There are many folk who are disabled in some way including mental illness. So that figure is understandable . Unless a large number of doctors are in error? Certification being needed.

The census accounts for retired people under a separate category (in terms of Labour Force Availability).

In the disability category...

Irish average level of disability: 5%

Limerick Regeneration level of disability: 15%

It's hard to fathom that certain areas are triple the national average.

Idbatterim

would margaret ca$h be considered peasant class or middle class? given that she is on about 80k gross in benefits?