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Child Item

Alcohol and Work

skooterblue2

The Missus is a shop manager.
She has an employee, who is useless and turns up drunk every few days.
She is not permanent but has been there 10 years plus part time.
She knows she is wrong but also knows she cannot be dismissed as easily as one would assume. My research on the law using HSA and other sources is not conclusive (I am a lay person, I am blindly feeling my way). Surely someone must have been sacked from work from somewhere at some time for being drunk.
There is no change of her going quietly.
She is doing my wifes head in. All help appreciated.

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Peregrinus

skooterblue2 wrote: »

. . . . She put this challenge to me today to find a way to fire her. It seems you can only shame a person into leaving.

Others in this thread have already told you the path to dismissal here. It seems you don't want to hear it.

skooterblue2 wrote: »

I am going to convince her to apply to Lidl or Aldi next month.

Have you come into this thread seeking to get advice that your wife should quit? It may be your opinion that she should quit, but by your own account what your wife has actually asked you to do is to find a way to fire the employee concerned.

skooterblue2

Peregrinus wrote: »

Others in this thread have already told you the path to dismissal here. It seems you don't want to hear it.

Have you come into this thread seeking to get advice that your wife should quit? It may be your opinion that she should quit, but by your own account what your wife has actually asked you to do is to find a way to fire the employee concerned.

Its not about what I want to hear. I recognise there is a way, its just the owners are weak leaders and wont say "we wont stand for alcohol in the work place". Totally different. I showed it to Mrs Skooter last night. She said that is the way to go but she will never get the owner to call the lawyer (god forbid it would cost the phone call) and Shop assistant A will not co-operate.

Some times you cant win every war, sometimes its easier to withdraw and let it be some one elses problem for the next 20 years

[Deleted User]

skooterblue2 wrote: »

Its not about what I want to hear. I recognise there is a way, its just the owners are weak leaders and wont say "we wont stand for alcohol in the work place". Totally different. I showed it to Mrs Skooter last night. She said that is the way to go but she will never get the owner to call the lawyer (god forbid it would cost the phone call) and Shop assistant A will not co-operate.

Some times you cant win every war, sometimes its easier to withdraw and let it be some one elses problem for the next 20 years

Why do you keep going on about a lawyer?

As a previous poster said, verbal warning > written warning > if it happens again, you are fired. Document everything. If she hasn't already your wife should document and record the days she has to send the woman home for being drunk.

Diceicle

skooterblue2 wrote: »

Alcoholics are incredibly difficult to collar. Its everyone elses fault but theirs and it not really a problem and you are only a wet blanket/dry sh1te etc etc. This is why its really a job for the solicitors. I think an easier solution to the problem is for my wife to change job, she doesnt have the backing of the owners as they dont deal with her.

Just to feel out the scenario a bit....
Your wife has had to send this character home on a number of occassions. Presumably that was for a valid reason. Sending someone home indicates a performance issue. Why can't the fact that the individual is unfit for work be used to build a case towards dismissal?

Ronin247

If I was in that situation I would approach it from a different angle.

Step 1. Send the owners an email outlining the issues and the effect it is having on me.... stress etc. Ask the owners to deal with it.

Step 2. Couple of weeks off work with stress because they wont deal with it...

Step 3. Explain to the owners that if they won't deal with it then I can no longer work for them and will consider it "constructive dismissal" and will be seeking legal advice.

Why would the owners deal with something that is not interfering with there lives? Give them a choice.

neris

skooterblue2 wrote: »

Shop owners dont care. This is a managers problem. The shop is part of a chain.

In the end its not the managers problems its the company owners/directors problem. Your wife needs to have a paper trail and write to the owners stating the issues and events even for her own sake. If she ever wants to go after them for the likes of constructive dismissal or even if their is an incident with this staff member she needs to cover herself from blame .

Thecowboy1981

Input new clause into all employee contracts, mandatory "drug and alcohol tests". Goodnight Vienna.

s0252

Please be careful taking advice on this from boards. People have the best of intentions but may not be well educated on how to appropriately deal with what is a complex and difficult situation.

From the information you have provided I see 3 options for your wife.

1. Alcoholism is an illness. Deal with it the same way she would deal with any other illness that impacts the employees ability to carry out their duties in a safe manner.
For example, "Mary" turns up to work under the influence of alcohol. Your wife tells Mary, in a private setting, that she has observed Mary's behaviour and is concerned that is not fit for work. She informs Mary that she has a duty of care to Mary, other staff and customers. For health and safety reasons Mary must leave work and cannot return until her doctor has signed her off as fit to work. It's important that your wife doesn't accuse Mary of being drunk. If Mary makes a disclosure regarding her alcoholism your wife should assure her that it's deemed to be an illness and Mary will be treated no different than any other employee who is ill.
Repeat this each time Mary turns up to work drunk.

2. If Mary is turning up to work drunk I would imagine her performance while at work may be an issue. If your Mary doesn't make a disclosure, your wife has no evidence and, or Mary's doctor signs her off as fit to work then performance management is an option. If your wife isn't familiar with performance management I recommend as a starting point that she googles 'performance improvement plan' AKA 'PIP'.

3. The owners invite Mary to have a without prejudice conversation where they offer her the equivalent of 6 months pay to leave. While this may not seem like a palatable option I can guarantee you that options 1 & 2 will work out more expensive in terms of management time and will take far longer.

Regardless of what your wife decides to do I would encourage her to document every conversation and send notes from every meeting to Mary by registered post. This may sound extreme but if the company ends up in the WRC good note keeping may save them 10s of thousands.

Also, one last point, and I know this may be difficult if there's history between your wife and this lady, but, tell her to try to be kind. It costs nothing and this situation is much more difficult for the lady with the drink problem than anyone else involved.

skooterblue2

Deleted User wrote: »

Why do you keep going on about a lawyer?

I wouldnt venture forward on path like this without consulting a lawyer. Guaranteed as soon as this woman grabs reality as soon as she gets her P45, she will be down at the solicitors office. You would be foolish to venture forward without a solicitor when you know you are going to be faced with a solicitor on the way back. A good offence is a good defence.

skooterblue2

Diceicle wrote: »

Just to feel out the scenario a bit....
Your wife has had to send this character home on a number of occassions. Presumably that was for a valid reason. Sending someone home indicates a performance issue. Why can't the fact that the individual is unfit for work be used to build a case towards dismissal?

That sounds like the best approach. You are right there is a long history, possibly weekly but guaranteed fortnightly. She in never "drunk", she has flu's, stomach bugs, illness in the family, berivances, car trouble and everything else. The only excuse she hasnt used is the sow is having piglets.

There is a squeeze coming up. This might affect it.

Jim Root

is your one still paid when she gets sent home?

TheBoyConor

Could your wife explain to the owners that she is a H&S hazard to be on the premises while drunk and that for every day you have a suspiciion that she is drunk she will be instructed to sit in the canteen until her shift is over.

Owners might think twice about it when they are paying one of their staff to sit and twiddle their thumbs every other day.

pablo128

Does she drive to work while drunk?

skooterblue2

Ronin247 wrote: »

If I was in that situation I would approach it from a different angle.

Step 1. Send the owners an email outlining the issues and the effect it is having on me.... stress etc. Ask the owners to deal with it.

Step 2. Couple of weeks off work with stress because they wont deal with it...

Step 3. Explain to the owners that if they won't deal with it then I can no longer work for them and will consider it "constructive dismissal" and will be seeking legal advice.

Why would the owners deal with something that is not interfering with there lives? Give them a choice.

The owners are "aware" of it but if you cant smell the sh1te why would you go digging in the dung hill.

We would love to do that but finances dont allow it.

I view it as an abusive relationship but my wife has a great sense of loyalty to the shop, customers and owners. Dont ask me why, if I was working there, I would ask you not to call me after 5pm or on my day off unless you were bleeding out and wouldnt be in tomorrow.

She is not related but she has some olde timey connection with them. I would nt say she want to have a public grievance with them.

skooterblue2

pablo128 wrote: »

Does she drive to work while drunk?

Doubtful she either walks or gets a lift to work.

skooterblue2

Jim Root wrote: »

is your one still paid when she gets sent home?

No, she goes home without pay but her OH is well paid and enables her. Still my wife has to muster another member of staff

Thecowboy1981

pablo128 wrote: »

Does she drive to work while drunk?[/quote/]

Mod
Irrelevant post deleted

skooterblue2

s0252 wrote: »

Please be careful taking advice on this from boards. People have the best of intentions but may not be well educated on how to appropriately deal with what is a complex and difficult situation.

From the information you have provided I see 3 options for your wife.

1. Alcoholism is an illness. Deal with it the same way she would deal with any other illness that impacts the employees ability to carry out their duties in a safe manner.
For example, "Mary" turns up to work under the influence of alcohol. Your wife tells Mary, in a private setting, that she has observed Mary's behaviour and is concerned that is not fit for work. She informs Mary that she has a duty of care to Mary, other staff and customers. For health and safety reasons Mary must leave work and cannot return until her doctor has signed her off as fit to work. It's important that your wife doesn't accuse Mary of being drunk. If Mary makes a disclosure regarding her alcoholism your wife should assure her that it's deemed to be an illness and Mary will be treated no different than any other employee who is ill.
Repeat this each time Mary turns up to work drunk.

2. If Mary is turning up to work drunk I would imagine her performance while at work may be an issue. If your Mary doesn't make a disclosure, your wife has no evidence and, or Mary's doctor signs her off as fit to work then performance management is an option. If your wife isn't familiar with performance management I recommend as a starting point that she googles 'performance improvement plan' AKA 'PIP'.

3. The owners invite Mary to have a without prejudice conversation where they offer her the equivalent of 6 months pay to leave. While this may not seem like a palatable option I can guarantee you that options 1 & 2 will work out more expensive in terms of management time and will take far longer.

Regardless of what your wife decides to do I would encourage her to document every conversation and send notes from every meeting to Mary by registered post. This may sound extreme but if the company ends up in the WRC good note keeping may save them 10s of thousands.

Also, one last point, and I know this may be difficult if there's history between your wife and this lady, but, tell her to try to be kind. It costs nothing and this situation is much more difficult for the lady with the drink problem than anyone else involved.

Mrs Skooter is watching from afar and if she can get the owners to shift she will get them to move she will. She is an amazing manager but she has her limits. Something somewhere has to give.

I dont care about alcoholism or drug addiction. I am a married man and all I care about is my wife, me and my lot in that order. Sounds mean but that is real life.

TheBoyConor

I'd say the best and most straightforward option would be to call Mary into a meeting and say nothing about drink or performance or anything like that. Just say it to her straight "Look Mary, we are offering you 6 months full pay in your bank account at the week if you'd be willing to voluntarily give your resignation by the end of the week". If she refuses offer her 12 months and a glowing reference in exchange for her resignation. For all the good it'll do, the whole town probably knows shes a borderline wino anyway.

12 months salary won't affect the business - she does feck all nothing anyway, doe snot contribute to the business and if she is drunk and is a liability.
And 12 months salary for a shop assistant is a hell of a lot cheaper than a legal battle with solicitors and a WRC payout.

Mod
A "glowing reference"? Here?

Thecowboy1981

TheBoyConor wrote: »

I'd say the best and most straightforward option would be to call Mary into a meeting and say nothing about drink or performance or anything, just offer her 6 months full pay if she'd be willing to voluntarily give her resignation. If she refuses offer her 12 months and a glowing reference in exchange for her resignation.

12 months salary won't affect the business - she does feck all nothing anyway, doe snot contribute to the business and if she is drunk and is a liability.
And 12 months salary for a shop assistant is a hell of a lot cheaper than a legal battle with solicitors and a WRC payout.

What about the old alcohol and drug tests - slip em into the conrtract quietly.

She comes in steamjng some mormingg, you pull out the bag and it's so long, farewell.

A lot of tripe on here. You don't want a big long winded solution.

mrslancaster

TheBoyConor wrote: »

.......Just say it to her straight "Look Mary, we are offering you 6 months full pay in your bank account at the week if you'd be willing to voluntarily give your resignation by the end of the week". If she refuses offer her 12 months and a glowing reference in exchange for her resignation....

Is this even possible? I thought companies had to follow a procedure to fire an employee of they could end up with a claim for unfair dismissal.
If the business was being reorganised and the job was redundant thats different, not sure about above

skooterblue2

TheBoyConor wrote: »

I'd say the best and most straightforward option would be to call Mary into a meeting and say nothing about drink or performance or anything, just offer her 6 months full pay if she'd be willing to voluntarily give her resignation. If she refuses offer her 12 months and a glowing reference in exchange for her resignation.

12 months salary won't affect the business - she does feck all nothing anyway, doe snot contribute to the business and if she is drunk and is a liability.
And 12 months salary for a shop assistant is a hell of a lot cheaper than a legal battle with solicitors and a WRC payout.

Option 1 is not going to happen as owners refuse to get involved.
Still wont happen because she is too old to get a new job. Minimum wage retail is a complete dead end and there are loads younger more active youths with less baggage that are more attractive, be foolish for her to change, plus she wouldnt get a owner that would stand for that crap.

There isnt that much money going around. 8% of stock is lost to theft and spoilage, its a mean business to be in.

skooterblue2

mrslancaster wrote: »

Is this even possible? I thought companies had to follow a procedure to fire an employee of they could end up with a claim for unfair dismissal.

This is a fault of the owners who never kept up with current HR practices. Its a old type of thinking, pennywise, pound foolish. The owners dont recognise the problem as they dont have to deal with it on the front line and it doesnt affect profits too much. One minimum wage worker can be replaced with another for the day. Its not really the owners problem.

Mrs OBumble

skooterblue2 wrote: »

She is not permanent but has been there 10 years plus part time.

She is permanent. Permanent and part time are different, and many people are both simultaneously.

She may have been zero hours in the past, but that's illegal now so citing her hours to zero is no longer an option.

The proper answer is to get advice from a contract HR specialist. (Like a lawyer, but better). But if the owners aren't supportive, your wife isn't going to win.

CrankyHaus

OP you got reasonable advice throughout the thread on how to dismiss someone. My question is would your wife be exceeding her authority by doing a solo run on this, and if so why would she bother?

Putting HR policies into place with a view on dismissing someone is the responsibility of the organization, not a shop manager in a chain of 15 shops. Why is she stressed over this if the owners aren't?

If an unfair dismissal action arises from your wife going out on a limb on this and sacking the dipso then most owners will happily hold her entirely responsible for the hassle.

Your wife would be better pocketing her wages and doing what she can within her own purview than worrying about the company being robbed, when the owners themselves couldn't care less. If that means things don't get done on the days the alco takes off then she can just inform the owners of that rather than trying to cover for the alco. There's a time and place for going above and beyond, but this isn't one of them. At most she might put her concerns in writing to cover herself.

Thecowboy1981

Some people love to hear themselves speak.

Just slip her a new Contract with a few hidden policies, give her a little sign on bonus.

And boom, off ya go and do a random breath test some morning. See ya later

Mod
Pls do not follow this advice

skooterblue2

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

She is permanent. Permanent and part time are different, and many people are both simultaneously.

She may have been zero hours in the past, but that's illegal now so citing her hours to zero is no longer an option.

The proper answer is to get advice from a contract HR specialist. (Like a lawyer, but better). But if the owners aren't supportive, your wife isn't going to win.

She has no permanent contract on paper, none of the staff have for years. I really wonder why she puts so much effort into a job that she gets so little from.

Mrs OBumble

mrslancaster wrote: »

Is this even possible? I thought companies had to follow a procedure to fire an employee of they could end up with a claim for unfair dismissal.
If the business was being reorganised and the job was redundant thats different, not sure about above

Yes it's legal, because there is no firing involved, the person is voluntarily resigning. But there do need to be lawyers involved to get it right. And its it's unlikely that a small-shop manager has the authority to offer a deal like this.

Mrs OBumble

skooterblue2 wrote: »

She has no permanent contract on paper, none of the staff have for years. I really wonder why she puts so much effort into a job that she gets so little from.

Irrelevant whether it's on paper on not.

Diceicle

Thecowboy1981 wrote: »

Input new clause into all employee contracts, mandatory "drug and alcohol tests". Goodnight Vienna.

Can't amend an existing contract.