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The Dominance of Dublin GAA Mod warning post#1

seligehgit

Discussion of all matters relating to this contentious subject is welcome and the potential implications of same.This thread is solely for this purpose.

There appears to be a perception that the moderators are attempting to shut down discussion of this topic and direct same off to a low traffic stickied thread.Nothing could be further from the truth.Our sole motive was to confine discussion to a single thread and prevent cross thread posting which was adversely affecting the enjoyment of fellow posters.

Can we please keep posts civil and constructive in nature.

The Changes in the GAA-super thread is now for discussion of all other suggested reforms not relating to Dublin GAA.

Extra Mod Warning:
Right, a separate warning to both sides in this debate:
Firstly, any more mentioning of "financial doping" or any intimation that rules have been broken by Dublin or that Dublin have cheated are banned from now on. You can debate the issue of the funding that Dublin have received without resorting to that. There is zero evidence of it and posting about it will be considered trolling from here on in.

Secondly, this topic is, like it or not, a big talking point in gaelic football at the moment. You are more than welcome to argue your point, but posting in this thread to simply mock those on the other side or complaining about the topic is known as thread spoiling and is specifically banned in the charter (see point 8 here). No one is forcing you to click on this thread and no one is forcing you to post in it. If you don't like the topic, then don't post. It's as simple as that.

This thread is here so that all the discussion is in one place and it won't filter into other threads. This makes it easier to ignore for posters who don't really want to be involved in it. As a result, we haven't really been moderating it as severely as other threads. However, a number of posts recently from both sides are sailing too close to the wind and getting borderline personal. So please take a minute before you hit submit to ensure that your post won't fall foul of the rules. We'll have no hesitation in issuing cards and/or threadbans to posters who fail to heed this warning.

Please report any posts that you feel break the rules.

Any questions, please feel free to PM the mods.

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[Deleted User]

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

Why do you insist on conjoining the obvious issue with dublins ridiculous advantages with the obvious issue with leitrim being so small?
They are two different issues requiring two different solutions.

That poster stated Dublin should be split because they have advantages on 3 separate points: GAA funding, population and sponsorship monies.

They do not see the irony that their own county (and yours, incidentally) enjoys those same advantages over the smaller counties, while refusing to acknowledge that their own county should also be split based on those criteria.

They claim to be fighting for everyone. In reality, they just want want to fcuk up Dublin's chances so their own team will have a better chance of winning the AI. Its disgustingly hypocritical and intellectually dishonest.

But you know that.

Merry Christmas.

ShyMets

[Deleted User] wrote: »

That poster stated Dublin should be split because they have advantages on 3 separate points: GAA funding, population and sponsorship monies.

They do not see the irony that their own county (and yours, incidentally) enjoys those same advantages over the smaller counties, while refusing to acknowledge that their own county should also be split based on those criteria.

They claim to be fighting for everyone. In reality, they just want want to fcuk up Dublin's chances so their own team will have a better chance of winning the AI. Its disgustingly hypocritical and intellectually dishonest.

But you know that.

Merry Christmas.

Agree entirely. Spiltting Dublin will do little to help the majority of counties. It will however benifit those counties who are dublins nearest challengers.

The gaa faces a number of issues. Dublin is one of them but there are many others. Spiltting Dublin is not a silver bullet

MayoAreMagic

[Deleted User] wrote: »

That poster stated Dublin should be split because they have advantages on 3 separate points: GAA funding, population and sponsorship monies.

They do not see the irony that their own county (and yours, incidentally) enjoys those same advantages over the smaller counties, while refusing to acknowledge that their own county should also be split based on those criteria.

They claim to be fighting for everyone. In reality, they just want want to fcuk up Dublin's chances so their own team will have a better chance of winning the AI. Its disgustingly hypocritical and intellectually dishonest.

But you know that.

Merry Christmas.

You have basically just repeated the same rhetoric again. I repeat, the issues with dublin and the issue with leitrim are two separate issues and, fairly obviously dont have a one size fits all fix that will sort out everythingthat is wrong in the gaa in one swoop. Dublin should be spilt to fix the issues surrounding dublin. Leitrim and counties of their ilk have their own set of issues and require a fix suited to their specific circumstances. For instance they could be offered amalgamation with other couties in a similar position.

The actual irony at play here is that dubs crow about kerry being so much bigger than leitrim, yet even if dublin were split, thet would still have multiples of the population of kerry - each - let alone leitrim! The truth is they couldnt care less about leitrim, they are just afraid of what kerry might do to them if they had to face them in a fair match up. When you consider what they have just achieved, it is painful to think that they are, deep down, petrified of kerry.

In reality, we should be taking kerry as the optimal benchmark for all teams, and trying to reporduce that across the country, not trying to break them down.

MayoAreMagic

Strumms wrote: »

Sport isn’t an even playing field. By suggesting that it is or should be you are demonstrating that you have absolutely zero concept of ‘sport’. Every team, player, board, coach, supporter is attempting to enable their team to win, to beat their opposition...its competitive, its competition.

In equestrian games.....Do we stop the French teams taking their horses to events in air conditioned trucks because the Spanish and Irish federations don’t have the resources to do the same ?

The Italian football team, do we stop them from training on all weather heated pitches ? Because the Icelandic team who they will be playing can’t, they haven't got the resources or access ?

Do we award whatever figure skater a head start on points because they have to travel an extra thousand miles to a competition, where they only have a three star hotel, limited budget for food, entertainment and comfort as opposed to say Great Britain, Sweden or Germany who are getting room service and massages at the Radisson ?

Nonsense. Sport is 100% supposed to be fair. The clue is in the name 'sport'. That is why teams have the same number of players and the same rules apply to everyone.
Re equestrian games, do the sporting body pay for france to have these conditioned trucks? Does it come out of the games development money? Do all meaningful competitions take place in france?
Didnt think so.
The bottom line is this, dublin should be split, leitrim has no bearing on this. Dubs are trying to knock kerry out of fear of what might happen if they do have to face them in a fair competition. Case closed

Beechwoodspark

My 2 cents

Dublin should be split into 4.

Even with that they still have a population advantage.

Give it a trial period Of 5 years.

Then we can recommence a fair and somewhat equal GAA championship.

Best wishes - beechwood

Strumms

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

Nonsense. Sport is 100% supposed to be fair. The clue is in the name 'sport'. That is why teams have the same number of players and the same rules apply to everyone.
Re equestrian games, do the sporting body pay for france to have these conditioned trucks? Does it come out of the games development money? Do all meaningful competitions take place in france?
Didnt think so.
The bottom line is this, dublin should be split, leitrim has no bearing on this. Dubs are trying to knock kerry out of fear of what might happen if they do have to face them in a fair competition. Case closed

Case is only closed because you repeat the same hollow, vindictive argument day after day... by your logic, ANY and EVERY situation where one team or athlete in ‘sport’ enjoys an advantage over another, be it facilities , be it the players available to them, sponsorship deals... should be penalized. Penalized for the skills, assets, dedication, training hours, excellent organizational skills that they put into their craft.

Btw, the word ‘sport’ or ‘sporting’ as defined does not have any meaning whereby one superior team who through effort and ability gains an advantage over another needs to be penalized. You are wrong.

The Lost Sheep

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

Nonsense. Sport is 100% supposed to be fair. The clue is in the name 'sport'. That is why teams have the same number of players and the same rules apply to everyone.
Re equestrian games, do the sporting body pay for france to have these conditioned trucks? Does it come out of the games development money? Do all meaningful competitions take place in france?
Didnt think so.
The bottom line is this, dublin should be split, leitrim has no bearing on this. Dubs are trying to knock kerry out of fear of what might happen if they do have to face them in a fair competition. Case closed

there is making changes to be fair and there is taking down a rival to help a few counties at the top and not anyone else.
Dublin has always been biggest county. It being split will not help smallest /weakest counties. It will only aid Dublin closest rivals.

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

My 2 cents

Dublin should be split into 4.

Even with that they still have a population advantage.

Give it a trial period Of 5 years.

Then we can recommence a fair and somewhat equal GAA championship.

Best wishes - beechwood

split in 4? That is a nonsense. It shouldn't happen but if there was to be a split you could only ever look to split the county in 2. If Dublin should be split than so should several other counties who dominate some of the provinces and have major advantages over their counties in their province.

Strumms

Weepsie wrote: »

Dublin being split will only lead to a Dublin v Dublin final a lot of the time at some point down the line I'd say

It would probably be the final four or five years out of ten.. keeping the provincial structures as opposed to an open draw however would mean only one Dublin team potentially coming out of Leinster which is part of the goal splitting Dublin would enable.... only one out and a weakened one at that.

MayoAreMagic

Strumms wrote: »

Case is only closed because you repeat the same hollow, vindictive argument day after day... by your logic, ANY and EVERY situation where one team or athlete in ‘sport’ enjoys an advantage over another, be it facilities , be it the players available to them, sponsorship deals... should be penalized. Penalized for the skills, assets, dedication, training hours, excellent organizational skills that they put into their craft.

Btw, the word ‘sport’ or ‘sporting’ as defined does not have any meaning whereby one superior team who through effort and ability gains an advantage over another needs to be penalized. You are wrong.

Nothing hollow about it. Its just basic objective logic. There are 2 issues at play. Like in any walk of life, these issues need individual attention specific to their own circumstances. There is no requirement for one fix to sort both issues. Pretty simple stuff. That doesnt suit the propaganda pushers in dublin, who are hellbent on trying to muddy the waters so they dont have to compete fairly.

That isnt what I said either. You cant eliminate all advantages. For example, even if dublin was split, both teams still play their games at home and have massive population advantages. But you can make the sport better by trying to balance the thing a bit better. Again, basic logic.

Re penalising - surely those who are working just as hard, if not harder, but are just not in the de facto province, with monsterous funding advantages - dublin, are getting penalised more than anyone else ever could at present? Do they not count? That would be 3/4 of the population by the way... Why no interest in that penalisation? At least dublin would still be in a great position to compete. Nobody else has that at present. It actually says a lot that you tried to make that point. It shows how completely and utterly out of touch you are with the situation.

MayoAreMagic

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

there is making changes to be fair and there is taking down a rival to help a few counties at the top and not anyone else.
Dublin has always been biggest county. It being split will not help smallest /weakest counties. It will only aid Dublin closest rivals.

Why does it have to solve every single issue in the gaa though? It gives every single team a better chance. It also gives teams in leinster a better chance to develop and maybe win a leinster title. Maybe that keeps more players in the game in those counties. It also makes the top level hugely competitive. That is more than enough to move forward with it.
If people decide that the weaker gaa counties want need addressing then amalgamations can be discussed. There isnt really many other options available for them in reality. If some dont wish to do so then fair enough, it wont affect the rest of the competition.
However, they are clearly two issues with specific requirements there. They are not joined at the hip.

MayoAreMagic

Weepsie wrote: »

Dublin being split will only lead to a Dublin v Dublin final a lot of the time at some point down the line I'd say"

True enough, that will happen at some stage, probably often. But you would imagine the critical mass of dublin being split would dilute the conveyor belt of players to the point where other counties might be able to compete with them.

dunnerc

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

If you feel so strongly that this money was not the deciding factor, then surely you should be chomping at the bit to go and compete on an even playing field and thereby prove your point and prove that pound for pound, dublin are the best footballing county. But what you are saying is you want the credit because the money didnt decide the thing, but definately dont take the money away either, which is frankly a fairly blatant bit of bluff that nobody, yourself included, truely entertains..
The answer is simple. Keep the money, or at least a proportionate share of it, and just play 2 dublin teams at intercounty. Very simple, much fairer and improves the gaa for everyone literally overnight.

The ironic thing is, if you look at the selection for what would have been north dublin over the last 10 years, they could easily have won 5 in a row themselves. They could potentially have thrown away the chance at what would have been a bone fida 5 in a row, to keep a kind of de facto provincial team and win a 5 in a row with them, that will always have that footnote of dublin being funded and treated as a province in basically every way, bar the opposition they face.

02.45 AM !! Wow you really are sickened by Dublin

[Deleted User]

[Deleted User] wrote: »

That poster stated Dublin should be split because they have advantages on 3 separate points: GAA funding, population and sponsorship monies.

They do not see the irony that their own county (and yours, incidentally) enjoys those same advantages over the smaller counties, while refusing to acknowledge that their own county should also be split based on those criteria.

They claim to be fighting for everyone. In reality, they just want want to fcuk up Dublin's chances so their own team will have a better chance of winning the AI. Its disgustingly hypocritical and intellectually dishonest.

But you know that.

Merry Christmas.

You left out the home advantage. Those aren't the only advantages either, but they're the most consequential ones.

The thing you're misunderstanding, probably deliberately, is that the scale and combination of the advantages are important as to why Dublin should be split. The financial and population discrepancy between Dublin and everyone else is much larger than the gap between any other counties.

Dublin are uniquely advantaged in the current setup. Voluntary amalgamations can also be considered, but Dublin should be split regardless of anything else.

And once again, it's not about benefiting some certain counties or harming Dublin. It's about rectifying the absurd advantages Dublin have and ensuring the survival of the All Ireland competition. All counties will benefit from a split of Dublin. There's nothing hypocritical or dishonest about wanting to make positive changes to Gaelic Football.

kilns

gaffer91 wrote: »

Once again. No-one will be watching, attending or caring about inter-county football in 10 years as the Dublin dominance built on their current unfair platform continues. If you want to see the future, see the way the Leinster championship has gone over the last 15 years.

Splitting Dublin will help ensure the meaningful survival of the competition. It's not the only change but it's the most important one. So it will help all counties- including Dublin. More players from Dublin can play at the highest level, Dublin GAA members and supporters will still have teams to support and the survival of the competition will help them too.

Splitting Dublin will only ensure that the likes of Kerry, Mayo, Tyrone have a better chance of winning. The simple splitting of Dublin solves nothing on its own. Its a selfish act to those that are close to winning all Irelands and F You to other counties as the gap between them and Kerry will not have changed one bit

kilns

I have always thought the current county system is not fit for purpose anymore. Yes of course Dublin have a huge advantage based on this but so too do the likes of Kerry and Mayo over much smaller counties. So splitting Dublin would do nothing to solve anything except selfishly promote certain counties agendas.

Firstly in order to create a somewhat even and competitive championship, yes Dublin should be split but other counties must join forces. It would be a hard sell at first but it must be done.

Something along the lines of

Antrim/Down
Armagh/Louth
Derry/Donegal
Tyrone
Mongahan/Fermanagh
Cavan/Longford
Sligo/Leitrim/Roscommon
Mayo
Galway
Limerick/Clare
Kerry
Cork
Westmeath/Offaly
Waterford/Tipperary/Kilkenny
Laois/Carlow
Wicklow/Wexford
Kildare
Meath
Dublin 1
Dublin 2

This gives 20 teams, who could compete providing a more competitive championship. They could be divided into 2 conferences like NFL each team plays a minimum of 10 games before playoffs begin.

In addition the GAA needs to centralise nearly everything, especially when it comes to spending and coaching development. Counties like Mayo and Galway have shown to be incompetent and cant be trusted in this regard and if there is one national strategy for coaching development and implemented as such then no counties can complain and play local politics with it

kilns

gaffer91 wrote: »

You left out the home advantage. Those aren't the only advantages either, but they're the most consequential ones.

The thing you're misunderstanding, probably deliberately, is that the scale and combination of the advantages are important as to why Dublin should be split. The financial and population discrepancy between Dublin and everyone else is much larger than the gap between any other counties.

Dublin are uniquely advantaged in the current setup. Voluntary amalgamations can also be considered, but Dublin should be split regardless of anything else.

And once again, it's not about benefiting some certain counties or harming Dublin. It's about rectifying the absurd advantages Dublin have and ensuring the survival of the All Ireland competition. All counties will benefit from a split of Dublin. There's nothing hypocritical or dishonest about wanting to make positive changes to Gaelic Football.

That is complete bull and you know it.

Give one reason how splitting Dublin will benefit a county like Longford who have only won one ever Leinster title in 1968

salmocab

kilns wrote: »

That is complete bull and you know it.

Give one reason how splitting Dublin will benefit a county like Longford who have only won one ever Leinster title in 1968

In fact I would think that splitting Dublin inserts more teams into the upper echelons of who might win an AI therefore lessening the chances of other counties especially the ones below that level. It would also mean more money would be needed to fund the project as the sponsorship would tank along with the crowds so even less money for counties.

tritium

kilns wrote: »

I have always thought the current county system is not fit for purpose anymore. Yes of course Dublin have a huge advantage based on this but so too do the likes of Kerry and Mayo over much smaller counties. So splitting Dublin would do nothing to solve anything except selfishly promote certain counties agendas.

Firstly in order to create a somewhat even and competitive championship, yes Dublin should be split but other counties must join forces. It would be a hard sell at first but it must be done.

Something along the lines of

Antrim/Down
Armagh/Louth
Derry/Donegal
Tyrone
Mongahan/Fermanagh
Cavan/Longford
Sligo/Leitrim/Roscommon
Mayo
Galway
Limerick/Clare
Kerry
Cork
Westmeath/Offaly
Waterford/Tipperary/Kilkenny
Laois/Carlow
Wicklow/Wexford
Kildare
Meath
Dublin 1
Dublin 2

This gives 20 teams, who could compete providing a more competitive championship. They could be divided into 2 conferences like NFL each team plays a minimum of 10 games before playoffs begin.

In addition the GAA needs to centralise nearly everything, especially when it comes to spending and coaching development. Counties like Mayo and Galway have shown to be incompetent and cant be trusted in this regard and if there is one national strategy for coaching development and implemented as such then no counties can complain and play local politics with it

It’s not a bad idea but I’d probably split things a bit more. Kerry north and Kerry south, mayo north and mayo south. Kerry and mayo fans would of course love it since their teams would have shorter commutes to training and by concentrating their resources they’ll both have a better chance. In a heartbeat we’d have solved one of the complaints the make. It will also make for a more competitive Munster championship for example. ...:pac:

Hawkeye9212

kilns wrote: »

I have always thought the current county system is not fit for purpose anymore. Yes of course Dublin have a huge advantage based on this but so too do the likes of Kerry and Mayo over much smaller counties. So splitting Dublin would do nothing to solve anything except selfishly promote certain counties agendas.

Firstly in order to create a somewhat even and competitive championship, yes Dublin should be split but other counties must join forces. It would be a hard sell at first but it must be done.

Something along the lines of

Antrim/Down
Armagh/Louth
Derry/Donegal
Tyrone
Mongahan/Fermanagh
Cavan/Longford
Sligo/Leitrim/Roscommon
Mayo
Galway
Limerick/Clare
Kerry
Cork
Westmeath/Offaly
Waterford/Tipperary/Kilkenny
Laois/Carlow
Wicklow/Wexford
Kildare
Meath
Dublin 1
Dublin 2

This gives 20 teams, who could compete providing a more competitive championship. They could be divided into 2 conferences like NFL each team plays a minimum of 10 games before playoffs begin.

In addition the GAA needs to centralise nearly everything, especially when it comes to spending and coaching development. Counties like Mayo and Galway have shown to be incompetent and cant be trusted in this regard and if there is one national strategy for coaching development and implemented as such then no counties can complain and play local politics with it

What will these merged teams be called? You'd need to move away from the county system if you wanted a competitive championship. County loyalty will be too hard to break.

Leitrim have 2 Connacht titles. They've never won Sam. No amount of restructuring will change this.

Dublin and Kerry have won 50% of the All-Ireland titles. They will continue to dominate the competition like they have always done.

Dots1982

Where would Dublin South play?

Hawkeye9212

Dots1982 wrote: »

Where would Dublin South play?

Croke or Parnell. There would no other suitable grounds.

Dots1982

Hawkeye9212 wrote: »

Croke or Parnell. There would no other suitable grounds.

Dublin South has its ground north of the Liffey? A bit awkward.

Hawkeye9212

Dots1982 wrote: »

Dublin South has its ground north of the Liffey? A bit awkward.

It won't work. Nobody will support a team which isn't based in the area of its namesake.

PerryB78

You left out the home advantage. Those aren't the only advantages either, but they're the most consequential ones.

I love this angle in particular that gaff has continuously spouted on this thread. If I remember correctly back in 2009, following the 17 pt win over Dublin, the kerry folk relished playing Dublin in croker as they felt the home advantage was in fact a detriment to Dublin as it increased the pressure on them. Fast forward 10 years and they're now whingeing about it being suddenly an advantage. So what's it to be? Whats changed in that time? Only the greatest team in history who have proven time and time again that whatever's thrown at them, they can handle. Give it a rest, the current Dublin dominance is cyclical and it wont last, it's just a very special team

Hawkeye9212

PerryB78 wrote: »

You left out the home advantage. Those aren't the only advantages either, but they're the most consequential ones.

I love this angle in particular that gaff has continuously spouted on this thread. If I remember correctly back in 2009, following the 17 pt win over Dublin, the kerry folk relished playing Dublin in croker as they felt the home advantage was in fact a detriment to Dublin as it increased the pressure on them. Fast forward 10 years and they're now whingeing about it being suddenly an advantage. So what's it to be? Whats changed in that time? Only the greatest team in history who have proven time and time again that whatever's thrown at them, they can handle. Give it a rest, the current Dublin dominance is cyclical and it wont last, it's just a very special team

The dominance will switch between Kerry and Dublin. Kerry and Dub fans make a perfect couple. Nothing to look forward to for fans of most counties which is why attendences will continue to fall across the board. The two counties have 67% of the All-Ireland titles since the qualifier system was introduced in 2001.

RedDevil55

tritium wrote: »

It’s not a bad idea but I’d probably split things a bit more. Kerry north and Kerry south, mayo north and mayo south. Kerry and mayo fans would of course love it since their teams would have shorter commutes to training and by concentrating their resources they’ll both have a better chance. In a heartbeat we’d have solved one of the complaints the make. It will also make for a more competitive Munster championship for example. ...:pac:

If you split the Mayo games development funding in half that would only leave 1 full time coach in each area. The merged Roscommon/Sligo/Leitrim area would have 7 or 8 paid coaches.

Hawkeye9212

I think we need to move towards a League based Championship.

Super League: 12 teams

League 1: 10 teams

League 2: 10 teams

Top 4 in the Super League go into the Super League semi-finals. Just leave it at that.

The high horse brigade

Hawkeye9212 wrote: »

I think we need to move towards a League based Championship.

Super League: 12 teams

League 1: 10 teams

League 2: 10 teams

Top 4 in the Super League go into the Super League semi-finals. Just leave it at that.

I would love to see something like this implemented with a proper League structure with home and away fixtures and no playoffs running from Feb to Sept

Hawkeye9212

The high horse brigade wrote: »

I would love to see something like this implemented with a proper League structure with home and away fixtures and no playoffs running from Feb to Sept

It would make it harder for Dublin and Kerry to win a national title. No more marching through the provinces with no serious challenges.

Potential Fixtures for Round 1:

Fermanagh v Galway
Tyrone v Roscommon
Donegal v Dublin
Cavan v Mayo
Kerry v Meath
Kildare v Monaghan

grbear

kilns wrote: »

Something along the lines of

Antrim/Down
Armagh/Louth
Derry/Donegal
Tyrone
Mongahan/Fermanagh
Cavan/Longford
Sligo/Leitrim/Roscommon
Mayo
Galway
Limerick/Clare
Kerry
Cork
Westmeath/Offaly
Waterford/Tipperary/Kilkenny
Laois/Carlow
Wicklow/Wexford
Kildare
Meath
Dublin 1
Dublin 2

This gives 20 teams, who could compete providing a more competitive championship. They could be divided into 2 conferences like NFL each team plays a minimum of 10 games before playoffs begin.

In addition the GAA needs to centralise nearly everything, especially when it comes to spending and coaching development. Counties like Mayo and Galway have shown to be incompetent and cant be trusted in this regard

Some interesting splits there but they seem to be based on a counties current strength in the GAA without placing much value on factors like population and more importantly current growth or decline in population. Counties like Louth and Wicklow may be considered traditionally weak but their populations are growing way faster than the likes of Mayo and Kerry for instance. Those trends would have to be accounted for in any redrawing of boundaries.

The complete non-reaction of the wider GAA community to some of the stuff exposed by the audits into Galway GAA worries me. People seem happy to box it off as "oh those Tribesmen, what are they like at all" and act as if some of the issues highlighted can't possibly exist elsewhere. There needs to be a system where a random set of counties are externally audited each year to highlight any shortcomings in how counties handle money. Revenue from club games in Galway is up by literally hundreds of thousands since new measures were brought in to keep track of ticket money while attendances haven't jumped significantly. Is Galway really the only county in Ireland where money was growing legs because the controls weren't/aren't tight enough?