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Child Item

Were all socialists spoilt as children?

realitykeeper

Children who grow up thinking the world owes them a living tend to be spoit.

Socialists also tend to think this way, hence the question, were socialists spoilt as children? I am not saying they were necessarily because I think an adult who displays behaviour similar to a spoilt brat were I suspect raised by permissive parents. This is a particular parenting style were kids basically do what they want without boundaries and often they get what they want if the parent is also over indulgent.

I see this spoilt type of adult everyday in my line of work. Sometimes they drink alcohol when they really shouldn`t and they fail to take instruction even when they are sober (which they are most of the time).

What should we as a nation do to stamp out spoilt behaviour? Do all new parents need to be thought the authoritative parenting method? Do we need bigger prisons and forced labor camps for those who are already grown up but are spoilt and in need of reforming? Spoilt people gravitate to a life of crime so discipline must be rigorous and immediate in my opinion.

This system of waiting until they have a lot of offenses committed before they are incarcerated, simply won`t do.

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Cordell

Actually free market economy does not "continue as is", but it's constantly improving as improving is inherent to its definition and this is what makes it the only sustainable one and hence the only successful approach.

Wanderer78

Emery Victorious Bolt wrote:

So you openly admit that you have no alternative to the market economy â€” and yet you persist in attacking it regardless.

So we should continue as is, and not allow criticism of our failures?

Emery Victorious Bolt wrote:

And left-wing ideology in all its forms is far, far worse. That's why most people in the developed world have sensibly decided that a market-based economy is the least worst option.

Oh there's no question left leaning ideologies are also fundamentally flawed and have failed many globally, but ignoring our current failures, will probably effect future generations badly, are we actually securing their futures by our current approaches?

nkl12xtw5goz70

Wanderer78 wrote: »

What if we don't know an alternative, I certainly don't...

So you openly admit that you have no alternative to the market economy — and yet you persist in attacking it regardless.

Endless moaning isn't a viable economic or political stance.

this ideology is a bust

And left-wing ideology in all its forms is far, far worse. That's why most people in the developed world have sensibly decided that a market-based economy is the least worst option.

nkl12xtw5goz70

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

The thing I always noticed about lefties, crusties, shinners etc in college was how little most of them cared about their appearance. Terrible dress sense and lanky hair was the norm. Tended to be real 2:2 sorts as well.

Caring about their appearance would involve too many concessions to the neoliberal capitalist patriarchal domination of society, or some such logic.

Wanderer78

Emery Victorious Bolt wrote:

You will simply continue to beat the "neoliberalism is failing" drum without providing any viable alternative.

What if we don't know an alternative, I certainly don't, and I think it would take an astonishing level of narcissism to think an individual does, due to the complexity of such a problem. Continuing as is potentially could be dangerous for us all, including the wealthy, as I personally do believe, we now have sufficient evidence to support, this ideology is a bust, but we re not reacting, we re not changing, and our most critical of needs are degrading, including our political systems and institutions, effectively undermining the democratic process.

JohnnyFlash

The thing I always noticed about lefties, crusties, shinners etc in college was how little most of them cared about their appearance. Terrible dress sense and lanky hair was the norm. Tended to be real 2:2 sorts as well.

nkl12xtw5goz70

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Its clearly obvious that both government knows best and the market knows best options are deeply fundamentally flawed, and tend towards chaos, it's also important to realise that market driven ideologies such as neoliberalism/neoclassical, in which have played a fundamental part in the current state of affairs in America, and in fact globally, are clearly failing.

From experience, I know there's no point in reasoning with this.

You will simply continue to beat the "neoliberalism is failing" drum without providing any viable alternative.

Wanderer78

Emery Victorious Bolt wrote:

The current political chaos in the USA and UK might make people skeptical of a "government knows best" approach.

Its clearly obvious that both government knows best and the market knows best options are deeply fundamentally flawed, and tend towards chaos, it's also important to realise that market driven ideologies such as neoliberalism/neoclassical, in which have played a fundamental part in the current state of affairs in America, and in fact globally, are clearly failing.

Emery Victorious Bolt wrote:

Plus, we know that market-driven economies flourish over the longer term, while planned economies stagnate or collapse over the longer term. There's a long and virtually indisputable track record there.

The only things we are sure of by having market driven economies is growing inequality, overall increasing worker insecurities, increasing environmental degredation, rising debts, particularly private debts, largely due to policies that cause continual asset price inflation. Maybe, just maybe, wealth doesn't exactly trickle down from such activities, maybe a large proportion of it is trickling up via rent seeking behaviour, and overall wealth extractive activities, including tax avoidance from large institutions and corporations, including financial institutions.

topper75

Edgware wrote: »

You're the type that thinks Communism would be great if done "properly"

Takes some arrogance to think you know more than VI Lenin who has not only read Das Kapital but translated the Communist Manifesto into Russian.:p

nkl12xtw5goz70

Wanderer78 wrote: »

...most of our institutions, including political ones, are defaulting to, 'the market knows best'.

The current political chaos in the USA and UK might make people skeptical of a "government knows best" approach.

Plus, we know that market-driven economies flourish over the longer term, while planned economies stagnate or collapse over the longer term. There's a long and virtually indisputable track record there.

Wanderer78

silverharp wrote: »

A feature of a complex dynamic system is that policy makers ought not focus on micro managing because doing X will generally not lead to the Y they are expecting. A systems approach is better.
Ideally the "market forces" should induce a bit of fear on all sides and not create the appearance of one way bets for example celtic tiger house prices or only being "one pay cheque" away from homelessness.

at some stage we will probably have to accept that neoclassical economics is a bust, but we re nowhere near that moment right now, and most of our institutions, including political ones, are defaulting to, 'the market knows best'. why should we be inducing fear into our societies? we ve advanced in our knowledge and understand of our world, and ourselves, we should be reducing our overall fears, but we seem to be hell bent on increasing them. this is showing in increasing instabilities in our most critical of needs, social, economically, politically, environmentally etc etc etc. how long more do we play this game, how much more damage do we have to do to these critical entities before acceptance?

silverharp

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Neoclassical theory has long been debunked, it has no resemblance to our reality, humans are not rational beings, as depicted by the statement, 'rational expectations', 'equilibriums', well that's just another economic myth, and no, our world does not work in neath linearities. Our economic systems are a perfect example of 'dynamic complex systems', so you might as well chuck your market forces in the bin

A feature of a complex dynamic system is that policy makers ought not focus on micro managing because doing X will generally not lead to the Y they are expecting. A systems approach is better.
Ideally the "market forces" should induce a bit of fear on all sides and not create the appearance of one way bets for example celtic tiger house prices or only being "one pay cheque" away from homelessness.

Cordell

China is corrupt by design, the politicians and public servants serve the party not the people. Only when they forget who they serve they get punished severely. You can't compare free democratic regimes with totalitarian ones, not even when it comes to corruption.

Edgware

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I meant it in relation to corruption. Not their other activities.

You're the type that thinks Communism would be great if done "properly"

[Deleted User]

Wibbs wrote: »

I was with you up to these parts:

Western nations have a long way to go, some more than others, but China is a totalitarian state where any criticism is stamped on, where surveillance of the citizenry is off the charts and in the open and getting worse year on year.

I meant it in relation to corruption. Not their other activities.

Wanderer78

realitykeeper wrote:

I agree which is why I think the minimum wage should be abolished and market forces ought to be the sole determinant of the worth of labour.

Neoclassical theory has long been debunked, it has no resemblance to our reality, humans are not rational beings, as depicted by the statement, 'rational expectations', 'equilibriums', well that's just another economic myth, and no, our world does not work in neath linearities. Our economic systems are a perfect example of 'dynamic complex systems', so you might as well chuck your market forces in the bin

Wibbs

I was with you up to these parts:

Deleted User wrote: »

I tend to laugh when people criticise China for it's corrupt society, because from what I've seen in four decades, is similar corruption in western countries by officials. Western countries just hide it better.

Western nations have a long way to go, some more than others, but China is a totalitarian state where any criticism is stamped on, where surveillance of the citizenry is off the charts and in the open and getting worse year on year.

Yup. The American model is to be lauded and copied as much as possible.

Good Christ no. The American political model, at state and federal level anyway is beyond dodgy. It has morphed into essentially a one party system with little to tell the main players apart, where lobbying by vested interests is endemic and the only time the Little Man has any sway is on the pages of a Hollywood script. Trump the "billionaire"? If he had just taken the millions he was left by his father and invested them halfway wisely he'd be richer than he is today and his record of business is the American Dream alright... I would agree though that while he is a posturing fcuknugget, so were most of their presidents in the last 60 years, but at least he's blindingly obvious a one. So he's "honest" in that sense.

PostWoke

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Summary: OP is spouting shite.

No he isn't, it's just the ones crying for it today have no clue what they're really on about.

Timberrrrrrrr

realitykeeper wrote: »

I agree which is why I think the minimum wage should be abolished and market forces ought to be the sole determinant of the worth of labour.

Will you say that when you are earning €5.00 an hour?

PostWoke

Socialists are morons who can't differentiate between the free market/ capitalism and runaway capitalism.

realitykeeper wrote: »

I agree which is why I think the minimum wage should be abolished and market forces ought to be the sole determinant of the worth of labour.

U mot m8

Uhhh, do go on... what do you think are the ramifications of this?

realitykeeper

Edgware wrote: »

Luke 10.7

I agree which is why I think the minimum wage should be abolished and market forces ought to be the sole determinant of the worth of labour.

Edgware

milehip wrote: »

How is 'middle-class poverty' more painful than the poverty suffered by any of the other classes?

Its gives you street cred like Rich Boy Barrett and Kermit Murphy. You can whinge about being able to afford piano lessons only up to Grade 6

milehip

Day Lewin wrote: »

Was reared a socialist. In fact my Da always claimed to be a Communist. In that most painful of environments, middle-class poverty.

Surrounded by mé-féiners and ex-rural gombeenmen, he was scrupulous about social justice and completely devoid of snobbery.

The complete opposite of "spoilt"

OP, what are you on about?

How is 'middle-class poverty' more painful than the poverty suffered by any of the other classes?

topper75

Cienciano wrote: »

... socialist system like they have in the Nordic countries ...

Mere dabblers. Dilettantes the lot of them as far as socialism is concerned.
They didn't nationalise their banks like the Irish did.

Edgware

realitykeeper wrote: »

And he said in a parable that the workers in the vineyard should honour the agreement they made with their employer.

Luke 10.7

ILoveYourVibes

ToddyDoody wrote: »

This wouldn't be one of those provocative threads now would it?

I like these threads. I am glad the op made it.

I like you op. You're ok. I don't agree with you ...but you're ok .:)

ToddyDoody

This wouldn't be one of those provocative threads now would it?

Better Than Christ

Is there a negative reason why people who hold views that differ from mine would hold views that differ from mine?

Why yes, yes there is. Well, fancy that.

ILoveYourVibes

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Funnily enough socialism, as it was applied in the former eastern bloc countries, allowed little room 'spoilt children' as everyone had to work and most of the employment was grafting in agriculture and industry.

Full employment is a feature of socialism whereas capitalism accommodates spoiled-bratness for privileged children, which, combined with the welfare state, can accommodate reduced-work lifestyles.

Summary: OP is spouting shite.

Well what you say about eastern Europe is correct. However i notice its mostly growing up knowing what it is to worry about a medical bill for someone you love or knowing decent people struggle or what it is to do without makes you want there to be a basic standard of living for all.

Junkyard Tom

Funnily enough socialism, as it was applied in the former eastern bloc countries, allowed little room 'spoilt children' as everyone had to work and most of the employment was grafting in agriculture and industry.

Full employment is a feature of socialism whereas capitalism accommodates spoiled-bratness for privileged children, which, combined with the welfare state, can accommodate reduced-work lifestyles.

Summary: OP is spouting shite.