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Brexit discussion thread XI (Please read OP before posting)

Quin_Dub

This is the eleventh incarnation of our Brexit discussion thread,

Same warnings etc still apply:

As we are approaching the critical end of March October 2019 period, please bear the following in mind before posting:
Insults directed at popular figures are not acceptable in this forum
Please do not post memes, videos or comedy links here
Please do not be uncivil to other posters
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robinph

Danzy wrote: »

The problem with a referendum is the dragging out of this.

There already was one.

Why would anyone want this to go on.

So probably would have been a good idea a year ago then when the deal first started to emerge?

After three years and leave still can't agree on what they want, other than not remain, I don't see how dragging things out for an extra couple of months to aks the population again if this deal is really what they want could be considered a bad thing. It would be democratic after all.

Joe_ Public

Interesting point made by Heidi Allen just now. One reason PM could be so keen on dec 12th election date is the university vote would not be as big.

This is crucial. Had to check and she is indeed correct that term time ends on dec 9th so students would be on holiday and less likely to cast vote. Johnson's own constituency is a big university one where his Labour rival is a recent graduate so easy to see why it might be very much in their thinking.

hotmail.com

murphaph wrote: »

Then why did the electorate vote to join (stay in) the EEC in 1972? If the UK was anti Europe going back centuries as you contend, this would not have been the case. You're talking rubbish.

It was in 1975. Had the referendum been held before entry, many think it wouldn't have passed. The referendum of 1975 passed for a variety of reasons. It doesn't undermine the point that Britons have always been luke warm and sometimes outright anti European in their attitude.

This is part of the reason why the Leave side won in 2016.

Danzy

hotmail.com wrote: »

Wait, do people dispute the anti European Union/ anti Europe feeling in Britain - it's all a myth?

History book sales in decline for years.

hotmail.com

listermint wrote: »

Lectures... Or generic YouTube nonsense for which there is days of video based crap

Wait, do people dispute the anti European Union/ anti Europe feeling in Britain - it's all a myth?

Danzy

Strazdas wrote: »

The extreme resistance to a referendum of any description suggests Leave voters and the right wing press fear it would be lost.

A GE is more attractive as they feel Johnson can bluff and bluster his way through with "Let's get Brexit done" and other meaningless soundbites.

The problem with a referendum is the dragging out of this.

There already was one.

Why would anyone want this to go on.

ancapailldorcha

hotmail.com wrote: »

Oh dear god. Move on.

Topgear on Dave wrote: »

This is great television.

Enough of this please.

Strazdas

Shelga wrote: »

It’s a single-issue election, so why don’t they just have a referendum? Oh yeah, because Johnson needs an election.

The extreme resistance to a referendum of any description suggests Leave voters and the right wing press fear it would be lost.

A GE is more attractive as they feel Johnson can bluff and bluster his way through with "Let's get Brexit done" and other meaningless soundbites.

devnull

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Now, if Brexit goes ahead, that will be different. Food shortages are exactly the sort of thing that triggers riots. Mass factory closures. Fuel rationing. Avoidable deaths in hospitals.

There's already a shortage of Ibuprofen which pharmacies in the UK are claiming is due to large stockpiling ahead of a no deal Brexit. I had to go to 8 shops yesterday to find any and even then it was overpriced Nurofen or nothing.

According to a local pharmacist close to where I work when I'm in the UK, the pharma companies have seen a massive hike in demand that they are unable to keep up with. Apparently the biggest demand they've ever seen.

listermint

hotmail.com wrote: »

Then perhaps research it. There are plenty of lectures on youtube explaining the long history of anti European feeling in Britain.

And Britain may be part of Europe but it is not part of the continent.

Lectures... Or generic YouTube nonsense for which there is days of video based crap

listermint

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

All complete bs.

So you are saying the UK is trapped in the EU?

We are all trapped in the EU because if we leave these terrible things will happen to us?

The UK will leave. The EU will last a few years longer but I think ultimately it is a failed experiment.

We will go back to sovereignty over our affairs and the EU will be the much looser economic community we first joined. Transitioning from the euro will be difficult but Ireland is pretty well placed as is Germany. Other countries it will hit them a little harder but they'll survive. We all move on.

That is for the best - the alternative does not bear thinking about.

You hate the EU and have done for a number of years. I think you'll have to certainly agree your viewpoint is somewhat tainted . And in my opinion irrational for the most part on any subject related to the EU in so far as you bring up conspiracy theories long since debunked for Ireland's own membership

Shelga

It’s a single-issue election, so why don’t they just have a referendum? Oh yeah, because Johnson needs an election.

hotmail.com

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

No. Someday there will be a sworn inquiry into this and folks will be named and shamed. Brexit will stick to them like Iraq sticks to Blair.

No one even talks about this anymore?

hotmail.com

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Since Britain is in Europe, I am not sure what anti-European sentiment would even mean.

Then perhaps research it. There are plenty of lectures on youtube explaining the long history of anti European feeling in Britain.

And Britain may be part of Europe but it is not part of the continent.

Wanderer78

Kermit.de.frog wrote:

So you are saying the UK is trapped in the EU?

It really is a hotel california situation

Kermit.de.frog wrote:

We will go back to sovereignty over our affairs and the EU will be the much looser economic community we first joined. Transitioning from the euro will be difficult but Ireland is pretty well placed as is Germany. Other countries it will hit them a little harder but they'll survive. We all move on.

Detangaling euro denominated debts would be interesting, it would hardly lead to massive capital flight, would it? What then? It takes the bones of a year to create a functioning currency system, well placed!

Zubeneschamali

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

All complete bs.

So you are saying the UK is trapped in the EU?

We are all trapped in the EU because if we leave these terrible things will happen to us?

??? I said nothing of the sort.

If riots are triggered by these disruptions, disruptions which the UK Government themselves have predicted (even though they lied about it and tried to hide the predictions), it will be because the UK will already have left the EU, not because no-one can leave.

And if the Theresa May had reached across to Labour and agreed a Norway style Brexit after the Referendum instead of drawing a bunch of Hard Brexit xenophobic Red Lines, they'd be out already and people would hardly notice except that Farage would be out of work.

Zubeneschamali

hotmail.com wrote: »

Oh dear god. Move on.

No. Someday there will be a sworn inquiry into this and folks will be named and shamed. Brexit will stick to them like Iraq sticks to Blair.

Zubeneschamali

hotmail.com wrote: »

I'm commenting on the underlying anti European sentiment in Britain.

Since Britain is in Europe, I am not sure what anti-European sentiment would even mean.

gmisk

dfx- wrote: »

What choice do Unionists have? UUP who are on the floor or DUP. Arlene could waste hundreds of millions of taxpayers money and Stormont collapse and still get a substantial number of votes.

Vote for the alliance?
It's what I would be doing in their position

Kermit.de.frog

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Now, if Brexit goes ahead, that will be different. Food shortages are exactly the sort of thing that triggers riots. Mass factory closures. Fuel rationing. Avoidable deaths in hospitals.

All complete bs.

So you are saying the UK is trapped in the EU?

We are all trapped in the EU because if we leave these terrible things will happen to us?

The UK will leave. The EU will last a few years longer but I think ultimately it is a failed experiment.

We will go back to sovereignty over our affairs and the EU will be the much looser economic community we first joined. Transitioning from the euro will be difficult but Ireland is pretty well placed as is Germany. Other countries it will hit them a little harder but they'll survive. We all move on.

That is for the best - the alternative does not bear thinking about.

Zubeneschamali

Strazdas wrote: »

"We won, you lost, the decision is final and you can never vote on this again, so suck it up, you losers".

"Also, we don't like the result of the 2017 vote and demand an early election"

Zubeneschamali

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Impossible to overestimate the strength of feeling if the result was overturned.

A lot of people would be very frustrated and angry.

Not only is it possible to overestimate it, it is routine. Indeed, you just did it. The frustrated and angry brigade will write to the Telegraph, not overthrow the Government.

If Brexit is stopped, things will simply go on as they are, unchanged. There will be no trigger for violence.

Now, if Brexit goes ahead, that will be different. Food shortages are exactly the sort of thing that triggers riots. Mass factory closures. Fuel rationing. Avoidable deaths in hospitals.

Zubeneschamali

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

There were people on this thread only a few days ago rubbishing the idea that there might be unrest if Brexit doesn't happen.

Hopefully that poll opens some eyes.

Ha ha! No.

The poll doesn't ask if pensioners are going to attack MPs or remainers, it just asks if they think violence would be a price worth paying for Brexit, consistent with Major Harumph Blimp types saying serve's 'em right.

And I think it is quite likely that peaceful Remain protestors will be attacked an injured at some point by Leave thugs, and if I were a UK citizen I would tell the pollsters that it would be worth it if the protests achieved a Remain result.

So there is really nothing in that poll that says any of the people polled would actually commit any violence at all.

murphaph

hotmail.com wrote: »

Modern Euro scepticism came about in the 1960s and 70s (pushed by the Left by and large at first) , but anti European attitudes started long before a notion of a European Union.

Then why did the electorate vote to join (stay in) the EEC in 1972? If the UK was anti Europe going back centuries as you contend, this would not have been the case. You're talking rubbish.

Zubeneschamali

Danzy wrote: »

How long can this stalemate go on?

25 years or so, given how long Norway was applying to join, or Sweden has taken to adopt the Euro.

Tell me how

Jamiekelly wrote: »

Good to know the right wing think tanks have a policy of transfers for employees looking to add another acronym to their CV's. Kate Andrews used to be a spokeswoman for the Taxpayers Alliance. She must have been a little uncomfortable when pundits regularly asked the TA to disclose their funding sources during any debates. Kind of hard to convince people your fighting for their rights as taxpayers when the Koch Brothers in the USA are your primary wage payers. The Institute of Economic Affairs is at least more up front about being a private lobby group and aren't hiding behind the "Taxpayers".

Taken from Wikipedia:
The IEA supports privatising the National Health Service (NHS); campaigns against controls on junk food; attacks trades unions; and defends zero-hour contracts, unpaid internships and tax havens.

Kate Andrews has also been on Sky News multiple times often criticising Ireland for being a tax haven and saying that privatizing certain parts of the NHS would only strenghten it in the long term :rolleyes:

Kate is also a fan of not disclosing the source of the IEA's funding, although one of which has been revealed to be BP.
Here they are languishing within the Highly Opaque category.

This is where they rank in terms of transparency.

fash

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

It does not get any simpler than that. To me that means they leave all the institutions of the EU.
.

I entirely fail to see how this follows considering that the leave campaign was predicated on comparisons with Norway and Switzerland"s relationship with the EU, turning back the clock to the EEC, and saying "only a madman would think of leaving (any particular beneficial EU institution being discussed at that time)".
Frankly I don't believe it is possibly arguable that the vast majority of the UK did not vote to remain within the single market and customs union given that 48% most certainly did and a large amount of the others also intended to.

Jamiekelly

Topgear on Dave wrote: »

Iv got to admire this young lady brexiteers confidence on question time talking about Nissan and car manufacturing.

The business is fast moving JIT manufacturing and cut throat.

Edit: Kate Andrews of the IEA

Good to know the right wing think tanks have a policy of transfers for employees looking to add another acronym to their CV's. Kate Andrews used to be a spokeswoman for the Taxpayers Alliance. She must have been a little uncomfortable when pundits regularly asked the TA to disclose their funding sources during any debates. Kind of hard to convince people your fighting for their rights as taxpayers when the Koch Brothers in the USA are your primary wage payers. The Institute of Economic Affairs is at least more up front about being a private lobby group and aren't hiding behind the "Taxpayers".

Taken from Wikipedia:
The IEA supports privatising the National Health Service (NHS); campaigns against controls on junk food; attacks trades unions; and defends zero-hour contracts, unpaid internships and tax havens.

Kate Andrews has also been on Sky News multiple times often criticising Ireland for being a tax haven and saying that privatizing certain parts of the NHS would only strenghten it in the long term :rolleyes:

Strazdas

MrMusician18 wrote: »

No more than the Brits, I see we are still fighting the 2016 referendum here...

Yes, but not so much the question of whether it is right or wrong for the UK to leave the EU.

Most Brexit critics believe the holding of the referendum and the referendum campaign was an utter shambles and those public figures defending the process as 100% legitimate are either liars or crooks.

Letwin_Larry

MrMusician18 wrote: »

No more than the Brits, I see we are still fighting the 2016 referendum here...

i have to confess i am totally sick of Brexit. After 3 years of this $hite nothing is even close to being resolved.

the news gives us the same horse manure every night.

"this is going to be the most pivitol week, this is set to be the week, this week is about to be the most telling, this week's vote will show us, blah blah blah .... "

it's like playing golf in a bog.