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Brexit discussion thread XI (Please read OP before posting)

Quin_Dub

This is the eleventh incarnation of our Brexit discussion thread,

Same warnings etc still apply:

As we are approaching the critical end of March October 2019 period, please bear the following in mind before posting:
Insults directed at popular figures are not acceptable in this forum
Please do not post memes, videos or comedy links here
Please do not be uncivil to other posters
Please use the report function to alert the mods when necessary

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Imreoir2

Tell me how wrote: »

Could this be deemed to be slanderous?

I think that is quite unlikely. It's true.

10000maniacs

Johnson now trying to blackmail Labour into agreeing to a general election on the 12th of December.
That will work, LOL.

prawnsambo

Tell me how wrote: »

Excuse my language, but I think it is fair to say that Peter Oborne has no f*cks left to give.

https://twitter.com/UKDemockery/status/1187167075820802048

Naming names is obviously very pointed. C4 will probably pick up slack for letting it happen even though it has been said in many places for a long time. Not least this thread.
Can't see Peston/Keunnsberg being successful in removing the accusation once it has been said in such a forthright manner.

Could this be deemed to be slanderous?

I think Peston is becoming a bit uneasy in this role. His tweets lately have become almost apologetic. But it's interesting that often he's completely at sea on what the real story is and admits as much. It's quite striking to see him openly floundering with two different and contradictory stories. The upshot of this though, is that he appears to be either a bear of very little brain or he's been so long suckling at the teat of 'number 10 sources' that he's suffering from crippling cognitive dissonance.

Edit: And just after I post this, here is again.

sdanseo

Corbyn was like a broken record on the election. He will agree after the threat of no deal dissapears. If he refuses one once extension is official, he will have lost any remaining credibility and his position will be untenable.
Unless of course he decides on the line that 3 months is nothing and he could by that time argue that the threat is back.

He may be correct that Tories will only win again but he can't just keep refusing an election when at the same time throwing about the idea that people should be allowed to vote again in another referendum.

Tell me how

Imreoir2 wrote: »

I think that is quite unlikely. It's true.

Well, that's the thing, it's a subjective opinion. One which a huge number of people hold but I'm not sure you could say there is evidence that LK is nothing more than a mouthpiece for the government.

For someone to actually name her as such could be deemed to be detrimental to her impartiality as the mud has been thrown. The fact that it was on a C4 show and the two journalists named are ITV and BBC could be a coincidence but could also be seen to be biased and intentional.

Danzy

Water John wrote: »

January deadline allows Johnson the option of a GE. A few weeks to get the Bill through Parliament doesn't.

Unless enough of the opposition get on board, nothing will change.

Brussels will give enough time to have an election, they'll hope Boris wins and can deliver the extra dozen or so votes he needs.

Danzy

sdanseo wrote: »

Corbyn was like a broken record on the election. He will agree after the threat of no deal dissapears. If he refuses one once extension is official, he will have lost any remaining credibility and his position will be untenable.
Unless of course he decides on the line that 3 months is nothing and he could by that time argue that the threat is back.

He may be correct that Tories will only win again but he can't just keep refusing an election when at the same time throwing about the idea that people should be allowed to vote again in another referendum.

It's going to look awful for the opposition.

A Govt that is 49 seats short, can't get legislation passed. Brexit chaos but has a deal that Dublin and Brussels are happy with and it has an opposition that refuses repeated calls to allow an election.

lawred2

sdanseo wrote: »

Corbyn was like a broken record on the election. He will agree after the threat of no deal dissapears. If he refuses one once extension is official, he will have lost any remaining credibility and his position will be untenable.
Unless of course he decides on the line that 3 months is nothing and he could by that time argue that the threat is back.

He may be correct that Tories will only win again but he can't just keep refusing an election when at the same time throwing about the idea that people should be allowed to vote again in another referendum.

A general election is in no way comparable to a single question referendum..

You do realize that it's not just Labour that are refusing to give BJ the election he wants right? Both the SNP and Lib Dems are pretty much on the exact same page as Corbyn. No election on BJ's terms.

lawred2

Danzy wrote: »

It's going to look awful for the opposition.

A Govt that is 49 seats short, can't get legislation passed. Brexit chaos but has a deal that Dublin and Brussels are happy with and it has an opposition that refuses repeated calls to allow an election.

Are Dublin and Brussels 'happy' with the prospective deal?

I doubt it.

Any deal Brexit is a pig in a poke for Ireland and the EU.

And it's entirely appropriate for the opposition to not accede to something that they disagree with.

Not sure how this looks 'bad' for the opposition at all. It's not in their interests or desire to facilitate a Brexit that they do not support so why should they?

lawred2

lawred2 wrote: »

A general election is in no way comparable to a single question referendum..

You do realize that it's not just Labour that are refusing to give BJ the election he wants right? Both the SNP and Lib Dems are pretty much on the exact same page as Corbyn. No election on BJ's terms.

SNP for example

https://twitter.com/NicolaSturgeon/status/1187416522593046529?s=19

Oooh such a broken record

Danzy

lawred2 wrote: »

Are Dublin and Brussels 'happy' with the prospective deal?

I doubt it.

Any deal Brexit is a pig in a poke for Ireland and the EU.

And it's entirely appropriate for the opposition to not accede to something that they disagree with.

Not sure how this looks 'bad' for the opposition at all. It's not in their interests or desire to facilitate a Brexit that they do not support so why should they?

Dublin and Brussels will wish Cameron had won the ref but he didn't.

They certainly beamed from side to side after it was signed and have expressed their hopes he'll get it passed.

It is not in their interest to facilitate this Brexit, not in their interest to have an election, not in their ability to agree alternatives.

How long can this stalemate go on?

Strazdas

Quite shocking poll results from the Guardian:

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/oct/24/majority-of-voters-think-violence-against-mps-is-price-worth-paying-for-brexit

It's obvious that their political system has completely broken down

prawnsambo

I wouldn't get too excited about this as an indication of anything much other than there is certainly a drop in support for the Tories and a rise for the BXP. How much is another day's work. But it shows why Johnson fought so hard to get his 31st October deadline. Notwithstanding that he made a complete pig's ear of it with his double prorogation.

Tell me how

Strazdas wrote: »

Quite shocking poll results from the Guardian:

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/oct/24/majority-of-voters-think-violence-against-mps-is-price-worth-paying-for-brexit

It's obvious that their political system has completely broken down

Key element of the survey.

Most Leave voters across all three countries think violence towards MPs is a ‘price worth paying’ for Brexit - 71% in England, 60% in Scotland and 70% in Wales. The majority of Remain voters across all three countries think violence towards MPs is a ‘price worth paying’ to Remain - 58% in England, 53% in Scotland and 56% in Wales.

A majority of Remain voters across all three countries think protests in which members of the public are badly injured are a ‘price worth paying’ to stop Brexit and remain in the EU - 57% in England, 56% in Scotland and 57% in Wales. Even larger majorities of Leave voters in all three countries think protests in which members of the public are badly injured are a ‘price worth paying’ to achieve Brexit - 69% in England, 62% in Scotland and 70% in Wales.

Majorities in England, Scotland and Wales think that violence towards MPs and violent protests in which people are badly injured is ‘likely to occur’ if Brexit takes place.

To be fair, you could nearly argue that asking such leading questions was careless by the survey organisers.

The Guardian headline normalises the acceptance of violence at this point.
I've said several times we would already be at civil war stage in the UK if this was any time prior to 1900, this both supports that statement and suggests it is at that point right now in sentiment, if not in action.

Strazdas

Tell me how wrote: »

Key element of the survey.

To be fair, you could nearly argue that asking such pejorative questions was careless by the survey organisers.

The Guardian headline normalises the acceptance of violence at this point.
I've said several times we would already be at civil war stage in the UK if this was any time prior to 1900, this both supports that statement and suggests it is at that point right now in sentiment, if not in action.

I saw Diarmuid Ferriter say the other evening on the Tonight Show that he thinks a second referendum could spark off a civil war in England.

An Ciarraioch

Labour will block the GE motion on Monday:

https://twitter.com/PaulBrandITV/status/1187439068369555456

A Dub in Glasgo

Strazdas wrote: »

Quite shocking poll results from the Guardian:

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/oct/24/majority-of-voters-think-violence-against-mps-is-price-worth-paying-for-brexit

It's obvious that their political system has completely broken down

Actually I think it is quite shocking that a newspaper should give such prominence to that nonsense

[Deleted User]

Strazdas wrote: »

I saw Diarmuid Ferriter say the other evening on the Tonight Show that he thinks a second referendum could spark off a civil war in England.

I don't see how there could be a "civil war" but I certainly accept that there could be riots and targetted attacks on prominent Brexiteers & Remainers if things don't get sorted out soon.

Strazdas

Deleted User wrote: »

I don't see how there could be a "civil war" but I certainly accept that there could be riots and targetted attacks on prominent Brexiteers & Remainers if things don't get sorted out soon.

I suppose he fears that civil unrest could lead to rioting and then God knows what.

A full scale civil war in the way we understand one seems unlikely though, as nobody on either side is armed. Perhaps he simply means rioting in several cities.

Professor Moriarty

Strazdas wrote: »

I suppose he fears that civil unrest could lead to rioting and then God knows what.

A full scale civil war in the way we understand one seems unlikely though, as nobody on either side is armed. Perhaps he simply means rioting in several cities.

Ulster says No. It will begin in Norn Iron.

Kermit.de.frog

The only way out of this is the deal on the table.

Trying to overturn the referendum will lead to serious trouble and probably violence, unfortunately. That's what happens when liberal elites tell the 'great unwashed' their opinion does not count and act on it.

The only sensible way forward is the deal.

The UK voted to leave, they have to leave. After leaving, the vote having been respected, then remainers can put forward a proper debate on rejoining.

The wishes of the electorate have to be carried out before anything else.

Capt'n Midnight

Strazdas wrote: »

Quite shocking poll results from the Guardian:

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/oct/24/majority-of-voters-think-violence-against-mps-is-price-worth-paying-for-brexit

It's obvious that their political system has completely broken down

Brexit is comedy gold.

Of leave voters 59% in Scotland believed the breakup of the UK would be worth it to take back control through delivering Brexit.

So they plan to take back control by creating the conditions which will drive Scotland to independence followed by rejoining the EU at the first opportunity.

Yip, that's pure Brexit.

Tell me how

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

The only way out of this is the deal on the table.

Trying to overturn the referendum will lead to serious trouble and probably violence, unfortunately. That's what happens when liberal elites tell the great unwashed their opinion does not count and act on it.

The only sensible way forward is the deal.

The UK voted to leave, they have to leave. After leaving remainers can put forward a debate on rejoining.

The wishes of the electorate have to be carried out before anything else.

It is over 3 years since the electorate voted to leave.
An electorate influenced by proven illegality on the side of the Leave campaign.
3 years where now 2 governments, 2 Prime Ministers have tried to pass 2 Deals.

Why should the Leave side get so many opportunities to deliver what they tried to do while the remain side are told it is one and done when it comes to selecting a path to take.

Your flaming with the use of the term 'liberal elites' is laughable with the Eton and Oxbridge educated ministers and strategists trying to convince everyone now that people voted for a 6% drop in GDP.

I would buy the honouring the result of the referendum if the leave side hadn't tied repeatedly to get deals accepted after they had been rejected the first, or second time. How can you accept that and not countenance a second referendum is baffling.

Capt'n Midnight

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

The wishes of the electorate have to be carried out before anything else.

May had a majority. The voters rejected it.

Kermit.de.frog

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

May had a majority. The voters rejected it.

Is that the argument you are going to use when England erupts? The remain side need to think long and hard about the consequences of overturning the referendum.

The situation will be very volatile.

Democracy only works if everyone believes their vote is equal and counted.

You are telling half the population - "your vote doesn't count". "Yes you voted leave, you won - but you don't understand the issues like we do so for your own good we are going to turn this around".

This is playing with fire and it will end in tears.

You know full well how people feel on both sides of this issue (not just the leave side). This is dangerous.

Hurrache

Tell me how wrote: »

Well, that's the thing, it's a subjective opinion. One which a huge number of people hold but I'm not sure you could say there is evidence that LK is nothing more than a mouthpiece for the government.

For someone to actually name her as such could be deemed to be detrimental to her impartiality as the mud has been thrown. The fact that it was on a C4 show and the two journalists named are ITV and BBC could be a coincidence but could also be seen to be biased and intentional.

Their names, amongst others, had been published in the article a few days earlier, I linked to it at the time. Their employers were also given the right to reply. Channel 4 have done nothing here other than give the guy a platform to speak about it.

Kermit.de.frog

LK slagging off Nicola Sturgeon in a tweet the other day should be at the very least grounds for censure in my opinion.

Also what story has she ever actually broken throughout Brexit?

I can't think of one. She's no journalist like Peter Foster or Tony Connelly. She just seems to be all about gossip rather than anything substantive.

Sam Russell

Tell me how wrote: »

Excuse my language, but I think it is fair to say that Peter Oborne has no f*cks left to give.

https://twitter.com/UKDemockery/status/1187167075820802048

Naming names is obviously very pointed. C4 will probably pick up slack for letting it happen even though it has been said in many places for a long time. Not least this thread.
Can't see Peston/Keunnsberg being successful in removing the accusation once it has been said in such a forthright manner.

Could this be deemed to be slanderous?

It is libel if it is untrue, but is more likely fair comment and personal opinion.

Would they take a case and risk getting 1p compo - thus valuing their status as journalist whose reputation is only worth 1p.

lawred2

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Brexit is comedy gold.

Of leave voters 59% in Scotland believed the breakup of the UK would be worth it to take back control through delivering Brexit.

So they plan to take back control by creating the conditions which will drive Scotland to independence followed by rejoining the EU at the first opportunity.

Yip, that's pure Brexit.

Yeah you know that means NI

GM228

Interesting Tweet from Andrew Duff on what the EU27 may offer tomorrow:-

https://twitter.com/AndrewDuffEU/status/1187280720940716033?s=19

https://twitter.com/AndrewDuffEU/status/1187280722177986560?s=19

It's not clear if that is just his opinion or an insight into what may be agreed by the EU27, however, the notion of an EU stipulation that a further extension past 30th November would be based on a GE taking place would be at odds with treaty law, I have invited David Allen Green to comment his thoughts if true.