Brexit discussion thread XI (Please read OP before posting)

Hurrache wrote: »

Re the assembly and the DUP rushing to try prevent laws that would have kept them in keeping with their beloved union, is there a quorum required before it's recognised as "sitting"? The SDLP aren't going to turn up, nor are SF I presume, so I reckon the laws will go ahead regardless of their pathetic attempt. I know they need a speaker elected, agreed by both sides, so I assume that's the safety.

does anybody care what that lot does or doesn't do? so long as they are not murdering each other leave them to it.

Itssoeasy

On RTÉ radio 1, it's been reported that the Northern Ireland AG is at stormont and there are reports that he will try to introduce a protection of life bill. In fairness the RTE Northern reporter is being clear he's not sure how exactly that could happen.

Letwin_Larry wrote: »

i agree. the truth is of little importance at this stage.
this is trench warfare

Yes, but it is very one sided. Cummings and the hard brexiter tories are playing right from the bannon playbook in which there are no consequences for deceit (which is why it is hard just to let johnson go free from the letter scandal). While the likes of amber rudd just flock back to the fold and help prop them up. A lot of moderate tories will have much to answer for when this is done i believe.

robinph

Letwin_Larry wrote: »

but the letter WAS sent and the EU HAS accepted his letter as being sufficient. this is just another needless distraction.

more white noise imo.

If you drive down the motorway at 150mph have you broken the law?
Have you still broken the law even if a speed camera or the police don't see you?

Hurrache

Re the assembly and the DUP rushing to try prevent laws that would have kept them in keeping with their beloved union, is there a quorum required before it's recognised as "sitting"? The SDLP aren't going to turn up, nor are SF I presume, so I reckon the laws will go ahead regardless of their pathetic attempt. I know they need a speaker elected, agreed by both sides, so I assume that's the safety.

trellheim

Seems a little disingenuous from the government to claim he has complied by the law when they sent 3 letters instead of one and didn't even sign the lette

Man in pub can then say when asked "but he asked for an extension " ... taps side of nose knowingly "he didnt sign it, nods as good as a wink etc etc our Boris hes a crafty one eh put one over on those dodgy EU geezers "

i.e. their target electorate

woohoo!!!

Eagerly awaiting Julia Donaldsons new childrens book entitled The Brexit Bus.

On a more serious note the EU have confirmed a holding position, to see what HoC gets up to.

https://twitter.com/tconnellyRTE/status/1186244674274648066?s=19

Joe_ Public wrote: »

I learned a new expression yesterday called "Lekoffian framing', named after an american academic, which explains how people, mostly right wing populist types, frame stories to suit them. In this instance it focuses on how everybody is fixated on the three letter angle, which is what gov wants, while the real story - Johnson humiliated by asking for extension though he promised he never would - gets less traction than it should. Kind of a variant on the dead cat angle i'd say. Not sure how valid but found it interesting all the same.

i agree. the truth is of little importance at this stage.
this is trench warfare

Letwin_Larry wrote: »

but the letter WAS sent and the EU HAS accepted his letter as being sufficient. this is just another needless distraction.

more white noise imo.

I learned a new expression yesterday called "Lekoffian framing', named after an american academic, which explains how people, mostly right wing populist types, frame stories to suit them. In this instance it focuses on how everybody is fixated on the three letter angle, which is what gov wants, while the real story - Johnson humiliated by asking for extension though he promised he never would - gets less traction than it should. Kind of a variant on the dead cat angle i'd say. Not sure how valid but found it interesting all the same.

Letwin_Larry wrote: »

the very fact that we (and other media outlets) are discussing this will be enough to convince many Leavers that it's those silly toffs in silly wigs trying to trip them up.

Those leavers who think that will get tripped up by trying to understand anything

Enzokk wrote: »

Enlighten me, how will he do this when nothing has been ordered by the court today? They are only monitoring it because Johnson and Cummings are liars and cannot be trusted, good luck spinning that into something positive.

the very fact that we (and other media outlets) are discussing this will be enough to convince many Leavers that it's those silly toffs in silly wigs trying to trip them up.

Penn

Letwin_Larry wrote: »

but the letter WAS sent and the EU HAS accepted his letter as being sufficient. this is just another needless distraction.

more white noise imo.

But the case was to ensure that if an extension was granted, the PM would have to accept the extension as requested, and couldn't just say that the extension was asked for, but then turn it down.

Enzokk

Letwin_Larry wrote: »

no i disagree.
Cummings will just cast this as yet another example of those in high office seeking to frustrate the will of the ordinary people.
they will contend that these judges are out of touch and far removed from the common man.

Enlighten me, how will he do this when nothing has been ordered by the court today? They are only monitoring it because Johnson and Cummings are liars and cannot be trusted, good luck spinning that into something positive.

Enzokk wrote: »

Seems a little disingenuous from the government to claim he has complied by the law when they sent 3 letters instead of one and didn't even sign the letter. Their request to have the continuation set aside seems to me to be undermined by their own behavior. If they only sent the Benn letter and signed it then there would be no reason for all of this. Classic Dom?

Edit: Continuation confirmed as above so yes, Classic Dom in shooting himself in the foot once again.

no i disagree.
Cummings will just cast this as yet another example of those in high office seeking to frustrate the will of the ordinary people.
they will contend that these judges are out of touch and far removed from the common man.

Enzokk

Letwin_Larry wrote: »

but the letter WAS sent and the EU HAS accepted his letter as being sufficient. this is just another needless distraction.

more white noise imo.

If he had just sent the letter as instructed and signed it, it would have been accepted the same way as his stunt has. He could also have sent a 2nd letter stating he will still try to get everything through before the 31st as planned but to consider the extension if he cannot. Then there would have been no case for him to answer today, but I guess he just wants to keep on losing.

Enzokk

Seems a little disingenuous from the government to claim he has complied by the law when they sent 3 letters instead of one and didn't even sign the letter. Their request to have the continuation set aside seems to me to be undermined by their own behavior. If they only sent the Benn letter and signed it then there would be no reason for all of this. Classic Dom?

Edit: Continuation confirmed as above so yes, Classic Dom in shooting himself in the foot once again.

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

The case was brought weeks ago (known as the Nob Off case) and lawyers for Johnson said they would comply with the law and they would not frustrate the letter. The jusge adjourned the case until today to see what Johnson does. The petitioners were back and the arguments are in the tweets.

https://twitter.com/JolyonMaugham/status/1186232543349264385

but the letter WAS sent and the EU HAS accepted his letter as being sufficient. this is just another needless distraction.

more white noise imo.

Looks like the Judge threw out the Govt argument for the case to be dismissed and it continues

https://twitter.com/bbclornag/status/1186243667977297920

https://twitter.com/JolyonMaugham/status/1186244210896392193

robinph

Letwin_Larry wrote: »

i really dont see the point of this. hasn't the EU accepted his letter as per The Benn Act?

so why bother with this futile exercise? just reflects poorly on the people bringing the case imo.

Just because the EU decided to assume that the UK law was followed doesn't mean that Johnson not obeying the law should go unpunished.

It is a bit futile in terms of there isn't now any need for the court to send the letter themselves, but it should be noted in the records if the UK PM broke the law or not.

Letwin_Larry wrote: »

i really dont see the point of this. hasn't the EU accepted his letter as per The Benn Act?

so why bother with this futile exercise? just reflects poorly on the people bringing the case imo.

The case was brought weeks ago (known as the Nob Off case) and lawyers for Johnson said they would comply with the law and they would not frustrate the letter. The jusge adjourned the case until today to see what Johnson does. The petitioners were back and the arguments are in the tweets.

https://twitter.com/JolyonMaugham/status/1186232543349264385

robinph

devnull wrote: »

It's being reported by RTE that the government are now only going to table votes if people won't amend them.

Good to see democracy is live and well in the UK.

I have finally seen a small bit in a BBC News article where they mention, very briefly, that the vote already happened. The withdrawal agreement having been agreed on by virtue of the Letwin amendment having been voted on and Johnson then just nodding the amended agreement through. The media is mostly trying to push the Johnson/ Cummings lie though about it not having been passed.

Bercow can't allow the vote today because the amendment has already been passed and agreed with by the government. But there is just too much noise going on pushing the alternative facts version to confuse people into thinking nothing happened on Saturday.

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

If anyone wants to follow the proceedings in the courtcase in Edinburgh, click this guys twitter feed

https://twitter.com/GrayInGlasgow/status/1186235285597765632

i really dont see the point of this. hasn't the EU accepted his letter as per The Benn Act?

so why bother with this futile exercise? just reflects poorly on the people bringing the case imo.

If anyone wants to follow the proceedings in the courtcase in Edinburgh, click this guys twitter feed

https://twitter.com/GrayInGlasgow/status/1186235285597765632

https://twitter.com/GrayInGlasgow/status/1186239066628595712

devnull

It's being reported by RTE that the government are now only going to table votes if people won't amend them.

Government Spokesperson wrote:

The meaningful vote will go ahead if the speaker allows it and if no amendments are selected which would render the vote pointless. There is not point having a meaningless vote, the government would pull the motion.

Good to see democracy is live and well in the UK.

PropJoe10

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

Its ironic that people in the UK want to take back control to the HoC, the same HoC which is a mess and cannot agree on anything.

Honestly, I think the Commons reflects British society on Brexit. Totally divided and can't agree on anything. The deadlock and catastrophic shambles in the Commons reflects pretty much where British society is.

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

Only spotted this from Saturday, Kuenssberg is just a mouthpiece for the Johnson and co.

https://twitter.com/NicolaSturgeon/status/1185542231400292353

https://twitter.com/NicolaSturgeon/status/1185544821135597568

People who said this about kuenssberg in the past were spot on. Its getting embarrassing how close she is to downing st, very soon after gove came out with his yellowhammer story. They just use her as a pawn, no self respect there at all.

The high horse brigade

trellheim wrote: »

Off topic but I need a chuckle

https://twitter.com/Tim_Mc_Garry/status/1186222410393182208

I LOLd at the first reply

I'm more worried about their views being 60 years out of date...

trellheim wrote: »

if SM+CU had been tabled by the Tories it would have been done years ago as Labour would have fallen in with it ,
everyone would have moved on, instead faction fighting and political ambition rules the roost

The narrative of parliament frustrating the will of the people is seductive but wrong

I agree with that entirely but we are in the perception business of election posturing and that is what they are doing.

I wonder too is the cu/sm angle in any way compatible with the obvious tory brexit agenda of deregulation and "fantastic" trade deals with the US? I see now where johnson is promising concessions on workers rights to labour leavers. How does he square that with what he has promised the erg?