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Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread XI (The Finals Countdown)

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https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057895346&page=249

New thread continued from above enjoy

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nannerby

Is there any update on Cronins injury?

Dravokivich

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Not Joey?

Like Conway, I dont expect to see him coming back.

DGRulz

It will be interesting to see how the world cup lads are integrated back in given we have a 13 game run to the new year now.

Shefwedfan

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Not Joey?

:p

If he see's sense I am sure we would take him back

If Larmour see's his future at 15 then nail himself to that spot now, because the best in the World in that position...

We need to start to reduce Sextons minutes and increase Ross minutes at 10 in big games. Increase Harry's minutes in Pro 14.

Not sure about Frawley, what is his future?

Clegg

Shefwedfan wrote: »

:p

If he see's sense I am sure we would take him back

If Larmour see's his future at 15 then nail himself to that spot now, because the best in the World in that position...

We need to start to reduce Sextons minutes and increase Ross minutes at 10 in big games. Increase Harry's minutes in Pro 14.

Not sure about Frawley, what is his future?

I'd like to see Frawley get a shot at 12. We know that he has the distribution and kicking skills from his time spent at flyhalf. I'm a huge admirer of Henshaw . He's obviously a test class inside centre and has huge upside. But his one drawback is that he's too quick to go for contact. The same is true for Conor O'Brien. It would be to Leinster's benefit if they at least attempted to give it a shot and adopt a style that uses two playmakers in the backline. I know Ringrose has been used as that distributor, but he's also someone who excels when he's running with the ball and looking for gaps.

Faugheen

Clegg wrote: »

I'd like to see Frawley get a shot at 12. We know that he has the distribution and kicking skills from his time spent at flyhalf. I'm a huge admirer of Henshaw . He's obviously a test class inside centre and has huge upside. But his one drawback is that he's too quick to go for contact. The same is true for Conor O'Brien. It would be to Leinster's benefit if they at least attempted to give it a shot and adopt a style that uses two playmakers in the backline. I know Ringrose has been used as that centre distributor, but he's also someone who excels when he's running with the ball and looking for gaps.

I’ve always said Frawley looks like a 12.

Clegg

Faugheen wrote: »

I’ve always said Frawley looks like a 12.

David Hawkshaw also looks like someone who could be a quality second playmaker. It wouldn't hurt to give it a go. I always loved the smoothness of our attack when Reid played at 12. We could get the ball into the wiser channels very quickly with his pinpoint passing. If we could get someone with Reid's type of passing game, but who didn't have the same defensive problems we'd be in such a good position.

Squidgy Black

Frawley is a 12 that can cover 15, I was surprised he was played at 10 at all, as that's where he played for the U20s and was playing for the As originally.

disposableFish

Squidgy Black wrote: »

Frawley is a 12 that can cover 15, I was surprised he was played at 10 at all, as that's where he played for the U20s and was playing for the As originally.

He's been so impressive at 10, you wouldn't like to see him keep developing there?

I wouldn't be able to point to any aspect of his game and say "he's alright, but he doesn't have enough <whatever> to be a 10".

Squidgy Black

disposableFish wrote: »

He's been so impressive at 10, you wouldn't like to see him keep developing there?

I wouldn't be able to point to any aspect of his game and say "he's alright, but he doesn't have enough <whatever> to be a 10".

He's been decent enough at Pro14 level, he's not really been tested at the top level with full strength teams in front of him.

I don't think he's as good a 10 as Ross Byrne or Harry, and I think we'll see this season that the coaching team will be picking Harry over him (keep in mind Harry's been one of the best outhalves we've had at U20 level in the past few years). He's a great playmaker yes, but I don't think he has the game management skills for bigger games (the Connacht game is probably the best example of this).

disposableFish

Squidgy Black wrote: »

He's been decent enough at Pro14 level, he's not really been tested at the top level with full strength teams in front of him.

I don't think he's as good a 10 as Ross Byrne or Harry, and I think we'll see this season that the coaching team will be picking Harry over him (keep in mind Harry's been one of the best outhalves we've had at U20 level in the past few years). He's a great playmaker yes, but I don't think he has the game management skills for bigger games (the Connacht game is probably the best example of this).

Christ, what I wouldn't give to never hear that term again.
Nobody can agree on exactly what it means, but if an out-half gets accused of not having it, then they're permanently dipped in sh!t.

TBH, almost ever out-half struggles unless their pack is getting them on the front foot. Seems a lot to be writing off a player (in that position at least) who's only a young'in with a hand-full of caps.

Clegg

The Joe Schmidt thread is a complete disaster. Are we supposed to believe that his entire tenure has been a failure on the back of his world cup record? I honestly don't know how you can be an actual Ireland fan, knowing the history of the side, and think that.

salmocab

Clegg wrote: »

The Joe Schmidt thread is a complete disaster. Are we supposed to believe that his entire tenure has been a failure on the back of his world cup record? I honestly don't know how you can be an actual Ireland fan, knowing the history of the side, and think that.

The calendar year has been bad with the WC a lowlight but people were waiting in the long grass and are delighted now. He was the making of Leinster and whilst Cheka started the ball rolling with doing things right it was Joe that cemented that.

Faugheen

Clegg wrote: »

The Joe Schmidt thread is a complete disaster. Are we supposed to believe that his entire tenure has been a failure on the back of his world cup record? I honestly don't know how you can be an actual Ireland fan, knowing the history of the side, and think that.

I have said many times that there’s a sizeable number of Irish rugby fans who deserve zero success or any kind of joy from what those players and coaches give us if they’re going to **** on the best coach Irish rugby has ever had.

They deserve mediocrity and failure.

nannerby

Clegg wrote: »

The Joe Schmidt thread is a complete disaster. Are we supposed to believe that his entire tenure has been a failure on the back of his world cup record? I honestly don't know how you can be an actual Ireland fan, knowing the history of the side, and think that.

Joe Schmidt as a coach and a person is top class deserves every accolade he gets.

Squidgy Black

The amount of people going back and quoting posts from before the tournament or from the 6N etc trying to validate themselves says it all really, it's just people trying to get digs in. It's quite miserable reading these days, there's certain people who are just posting non-stop negativity too which is just a pain in the hole to keep seeing.

AbusesToilets

Joe is an amazing person and a quality coach. That doesn't mean his tenure can't also be viewed as a failure with respect to the WC. It's a performance based business, at the end of the day.

Clegg

Faugheen wrote: »

I have said many times that there’s a sizeable number of Irish rugby fans who deserve zero success or any kind of joy from what those players and coaches give us if they’re going to **** on the best coach Irish rugby has ever had.

They deserve mediocrity and failure.

Tbh I'm not entirely sure they're Irish rugby fans at all. We've all been critical of our failures as a side despite what some journalists say. But what we're seeing now is just naked agenda against Irish rugby.

Faugheen

Clegg wrote: »

Tbh I'm not entirely sure they're Irish rugby fans at all. We've all been critical of our failures as a side despite what some journalists say. But what we're seeing now is just naked agenda against Irish rugby.

Maybe so, but there’s many Irish Rugby fans who didn’t like Schmidt because of his Leinster connections, claiming he only picked Leinster players and all that nonsense early on and believing their player was better. A lot of the bile from Irish rugby fans is purely provincial and Schmidt gets a lot of it because of that.

The agenda and delight from some people that we lost was summed up perfectly by Jerry Flannery on the JOEpan show, they’re losers, and they love being losers.

Clegg

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Joe is an amazing person and a quality coach. That doesn't mean his tenure can't also be viewed as a failure with respect to the WC. It's a performance based business, at the end of the day.

It is absolutely a performance based business. And by judging the performances of the Ireland side over six years, I have come to the conclusion that he's the most successful Irish coach in history. I don't think the World Cup is the only metric to judge success. We are historically an unsuccessful nation. What we've seen in Schmidt's six years as coach is unprecedented success as far as I'm concerned.

AbusesToilets

Clegg wrote: »

It is absolutely a performance based business. And by judging the performances of the Ireland side, I have come to the conclusion that he's the most successful Irish coach in history. I don't think the World Cup is the only metric to judge success. We are historically an unsuccessful nation. What we've seen in Schmidt's six years as coach is unprecedented success as far as I'm concerned.

Would you have considered EOS a success coach? He won the most games ever by an Irish coach, up til Joe. Never won any silverware. I'm grateful for what we won with Joe, but he failed with respect to the WC. Those two things aren't mutually exclusive, and I would consider the WC the ultimate measure of an International coach. That's how other nations also view it, rightly so.

DGRulz

If we're judging the ultimate success or failure of a coach through the glass of World Cups we're essentially saying the only games that matter happen for 2 months every four years. That's a sad, sad, indictment of our game. It also says there's only a handful of quality coaches since 1987.

AbusesToilets

DGRulz wrote: »

If we're judging the ultimate success or failure of a coach through the glass of World Cups we're essentially saying the only games that matter happen for 2 months every four years. That's a sad, sad, indictment of our game. It also says there's only a handful of quality coaches since 1987.

It's the highest level of competition in the sport, what else ought to be the ultimate metric of success at international level?

Clegg

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Would you have considered EOS a success coach? He won the most games ever by an Irish coach, up til Joe. Never won any silverware. I'm grateful for what we won with Joe, but he failed with respect to the WC. Those two things aren't mutually exclusive, and I would consider the WC the ultimate measure of an International coach. That's how other nations also view it, rightly so.

But you absolutely cannot discount success in the Six Nations. As a Nation we're wholly unsuccessful. Under Schmidt we've won 30% of our titles in the 109 year history of the 5/6 Nations.

Yes, I completely understand that people want success at this world cup. Winning that tournament is the highest honour in the game. But I won't accept that the titles we've won in the last six years count for nothing

AbusesToilets

Clegg wrote: »

But you absolutely cannot discount success in the Six Nations. As a Nation we're wholly unsuccessful. Under Schmidt we've won 30% of our titles in the 109 year history of the 5/6 Nations.

Yes, I completely understand that people want success at this world cup. Winning that tournament is the highest honour in the game. But I won't accept that the titles we've won in the last six years count for nothing

I never said that they count for nothing, I cheered as much as the next person. That doesn't change that we have failed, and failed badly, under Joe at the WC. He should be held to account for that.

We have one of the best professional set ups among any nation, we should expect to be competitive every year, and are at this stage. I'd expect any coach coming in to be capable of winning a 6N in a 4 year WC cup cycle, that's not the measure of success it once was.

DGRulz

AbusesToilets wrote: »

It's the highest level of competition in the sport, what else ought to be the ultimate metric of success at international level?

It's a 32 year old competition. It's not like the FIFA World Cup despite what World Rugby would have you believe. It's a centralised autumn international series with a few rounds of chucking fodder at the big 8 before the real thing starts, with a fancy gold cup and a tag line at the end. A competition like the 6 Nations is over 100 years older and has more prestige.

Edit: Apologies, just noticed this is the Leinster thread. It was a safe place yesterday and should remain so.

AbusesToilets

DGRulz wrote: »

It's a 32 year old competition. It's not like the FIFA World Cup despite what World Rugby would have you believe. It's a centralised autumn international series with a few rounds of chucking fodder at the big 8 before the real thing starts, with a fancy gold cup and a tag line at the end. A competition like the 6 Nations is over 100 years older and has more prestige.

Ludicrous statement. The age of the competition doesn't matter in the slightest. It's the one time when all teams arrive with something close to equal levels of preparation. We've had one good performance in a 1/4, in 91, before the game went professional. That's crap. All the 6Ns in world don't make up for that.

irishbucsfan

AbusesToilets wrote: »

I never said that they count for nothing, I cheered as much as the next person. That doesn't change that we have failed, and failed badly, under Joe at the WC. He should be held to account for that.

We have one of the best professional set ups among any nation, we should expect to be competitive every year, and are at this stage. I'd expect any coach coming in to be capable of winning a 6N in a 4 year WC cup cycle, that's not the measure of success it once was.

Its not the measure of success it once was because we win it now. That wasn't a regular occurrence before he was our coach.

It'd be like if we made a world cup final twice in a row and then people suddenly started claiming that progressing in the world cup without winning it is not the measure of success it once was.

Schmidt took a successful Leinster side and turned them into the best club side in European rugby, perhaps ever. Then he took a team from the bottom of the 6 Nations and won a grand slam. He also failed on multiple occasions. World Cups weren't the only time the Irish team failed to perform under Schmidt, there were plenty of periods where the team were playing poorly. But he was still a very successful coach in comparison to everything that came before him. So successful, that he clearly made multiple 6 Nations wins look so easy that people won't even give him credit for them any more.

is_that_so

So when are the returning RWC players likely to be rolled back into the first 15?

irishbucsfan

is_that_so wrote: »

So when are the returning RWC players likely to be rolled back into the first 15?

I'd imagine they'll aim for the Champions Cup, so possibly the Connacht match the week before?